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    hnz1979 Offline OP
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    Welcoming ideas. School uses a clip chart and our ds often chooses to do things to get in trouble. He is bossy and token behavior rewards don't work. At home we can get him to comply mostly. He is often in trouble for talking, being bossy, and goofing off. These are most often his willful choice.

    My husband and myself are both strong willed, but do well under those we respect. I understand my ds. The more he respects someone the better he complies. How can I encourage this when in boring classes with those he respects less? (Electives)

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    Our strategy on that is to do nothing. That's the school's problem, not ours. Our DD8's class also uses a clip chart, color coded, where red = parental notification. We've told her point blank that unless her behavior reaches that level, it's between her and her teacher, and has nothing to do with us.

    Talking, being bossy, and goofing off don't sound like red-level behaviors, unless of course the teacher has to deal with it too frequently in one day.

    Now, if we were having this issue, and the teacher complained to us, we'd be happy to explain to the teacher how she's reacting this way due to boredom, and use that as a launchpad to advocacy for a more appropriate education.

    We don't have this issue, because our DD is the polar opposite, a behavioral perfectionist, and so we're instead encouraging a bit of harmless mischief as a way to safely vent some stress and enjoy her day a little bit.

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    hnz1979 Offline OP
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    @Dude - thanks! We have many issues with the teacher this year.
    However I don't hear about it all the time. Usually when he just has too many issues in one day.

    We will be advocating switching DS from Art to another teachers class that hour. If he is horrible in art and bored teach him Spanish - that's what he wants to learn. That should tell them something that a 5 year old wants to learns Spanish!

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    We tend to approach this as an underlying two-fold problem with my DD, who has a nasty tendency toward passive resistance and even manipulative or passive-aggressive insubordination when she is not feeling like compliance.

    She's impervious to operant conditioning methodology, incidentally, as we've learned to our peril over the years. We offer her perks because she's a great kid and we love her-- sometimes we'll offer them as "bonuses" for doing something exceptionally challenging for her.

    But we NEVER use sticker charts or behavioral charts. Wow, is THAT ever a road to hell with this particular child.

    Anyway.

    Two-fold issue:

    a) why is there not sufficient respect for a particular individual? It may be that I happen to agree with my daughter's assessment there, but it's equally possible that I wind up thinking that she is basing her opinion on immature factors. I don't really know whether or not her opinion is valid in a more or less objective sense until I talk it over with her. Sometimes that leads to--

    b) offering respect even when we don't WANT to behave in compliant ways. Sometimes you aren't in a position to seize autonomy for yourself, and really-- it's a good thing. At that point, then, one has to learn to be reasonably graceful about tolerating situations that we'd rather not find ourselves in, and thereby limiting just HOW unpleasant they are for ourselves and everyone else involved.


    My DH and I are both very strong-willed individuals, too. This helps, because we know where DD is coming from with this stuff. On the other hand, it also means that she has a genetic double-dose of "Oh yeah?? YOU CAN'T MAKE ME..."

    whistle

    Rational discussion, but with the clear boundary condition that as parents, we DO ultimately have veto power over her desire for autonomy over her entire life at this point in time. We listen, but we may not always agree with her, in other words.







    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Sticker and stoplight charts were a miserable failure for teachers who tried them with DS last year. My strong suspicion is that they were merely guidelines that he used to determine what he could get away with or whether the punishment was enough to change what he wanted to do... not exactly the intended result.

    We had more success appealing to his desire to fit in, be respected by others not only for knowing the answer, but for following classroom rules so that others could also learn, so the teacher appreciated all the good things about him instead of being frustrated all day, etc. We acknowledged that some things were indeed repetitive and B.O.R.I.N.G., and told him we were working to try to improve that, but that if he didn't follow classroom rules, he might be stuck because the teachers wouldn't believe he could do more if he was constantly goofing around.

    It worked, even in a bad school environment, but we were very much working to get him the heck out of there, too.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    We tend to approach this as an underlying two-fold problem with my DD, who has a nasty tendency toward passive resistance and even manipulative or passive-aggressive insubordination when she is not feeling like compliance.

    LOL omgosh I think we have the same kid (although yours it quite a bit more gifted than mine).

    DD10 makes me kind of nuts (as far as discipline is concerned). DS9, on the other hand, is very easy. Direct consequences (removal of privileges) works like a charm.

    DD10, on the other hand, will take whatever consequence I hand out, and with the attitudinal version of the middle finger, continue to repeat the behaviour that earned the consequence. She is the epitome of recalcitrance and stubbornness.

    sigh.

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    I don't really have any good advice for you - we've been lucky (I suppose lol!) that our strong-willed child's behavioral stubbornness surfaces only at home lol. FWIW, only one of the teachers my kids had in early elementary used sticker-type charts for behavior and honestly, it seemed destined to be a total disaster for almost all the kids!

    There is one thing I would suggest though -

    Originally Posted by hnz1979
    We will be advocating switching DS from Art to another teachers class that hour. If he is horrible in art and bored teach him Spanish - that's what he wants to learn.

    I realize he's young and empathize with being stuck in a class he doesn't like, but fwiw, I woudn't pull him from art, for a number of reasons. First, I think there is value in sending our children to art even when they aren't good at it and/or don't like it. Good reasons both from an education point of view and also from the point of view of teaching our kids that we don't get to pick and choose how we spend every minute of our day. If he loves Spanish and wants to learn more Spanish, find ways to add in more Spanish, but not at the expense of saying "hey, you don't have to do something else that's part of the day just because you don't like it." Please note, I'm guessing here that art is something all the kids in his class go to - if it's not, and all the kids have the option of choosing either art or Spanish or something else, that's ok to switch! I just think that if the full class has art as part of their schedule, I would continue to send him to art and I'd encourage him to be respectful and I would share with him things I would find valuable about the experience.

    polarbear

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    I deal with it by telling my DS (1st grade) that if I don't want to hear from his school in any capacity except a pat on the back, or a newsletter, or a scheduled parent teacher conference.

    I told him that if I do, then I will stand behind the school in their disciplinary procedure-- and depending on the seriousness, he may see more trouble at home.

    I know it sounds authoritarian, but my DS is a "strong willed" child, and he has to 100% believe that acting up at school is a bad option (he'll still play the odds at 99%!).

    On the positive, we spend time talking about what's right and personal accountability.

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    I don't really have any good advice for you - we've been lucky (I suppose lol!) that our strong-willed child's behavioral stubbornness surfaces only at home lol. FWIW, only one of the teachers my kids had in early elementary used sticker-type charts for behavior and honestly, it seemed destined to be a total disaster for almost all the kids!

    There is one thing I would suggest though -

    Originally Posted by hnz1979
    We will be advocating switching DS from Art to another teachers class that hour. If he is horrible in art and bored teach him Spanish - that's what he wants to learn.

    I realize he's young and empathize with being stuck in a class he doesn't like, but fwiw, I woudn't pull him from art, for a number of reasons. First, I think there is value in sending our children to art even when they aren't good at it and/or don't like it. Good reasons both from an education point of view and also from the point of view of teaching our kids that we don't get to pick and choose how we spend every minute of our day. If he loves Spanish and wants to learn more Spanish, find ways to add in more Spanish, but not at the expense of saying "hey, you don't have to do something else that's part of the day just because you don't like it." Please note, I'm guessing here that art is something all the kids in his class go to - if it's not, and all the kids have the option of choosing either art or Spanish or something else, that's ok to switch! I just think that if the full class has art as part of their schedule, I would continue to send him to art and I'd encourage him to be respectful and I would share with him things I would find valuable about the experience.

    polarbear

    Inclined to agree. Art is what? Once a week? Unless the Choice is art or Spanish sending him the message he can opt out of things he doesn't like could cause problems. If he has art skills on a gifted level that is different and he needs more advanced stuff but not just because he would prefer to be doing something else.

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    hnz1979 Offline OP
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    To all thank you. He today ended up in the principals office. He was bored in music and they also use the clip chart. With each clip down he continued to willfully disobey. He spent recess with the principal.

    He has lost privileges and I make him write apologizes. I understand he has the right to chose his behavior - however he needs to know its rude. We are being very firm but very calm. Getting angry leads to anger issues on his part and more defiance.

    Yet I know he has the clip chart figured out and what punishment is eminent. What consequence will he hate enough to comply? He knows the punishment and looks right at it and keeps going with a vengeance.

    I was more compliment in school. However when we moved to a small rural community in HS I started to goof off and conjure mischevious pranks. That's what happens when school is unchallenging and you have too much time - you can think of more interesting things to do! Which gives me an idea that might help him comply....

    I agree, removal from Art will not help. Keeping posting ideas!

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    We've been able to successfully alter DD's behavioral choices in three ways:

    a) you're being rude/disrespectful and you're making {authority figure} feel bad because of your behavior. Is that what you want?

    b) your behavior is leading your peers to have more difficulty in this environment. You are negatively impacting others' ability to (do whatever activity is in play). Do you have the right to limit others this way?

    c) you are a role model. What kind of behavior are you modeling for others?

    This works for my DD14 primarily because she is an extreme empath and highly-- no, really HIGHLY-- prosocial. She is also, at heart, an authority pleaser who does not want to cause others distress.

    I wouldn't even try it with a child that was not both of those things, but with a child that is, it's worth a shot.


    There is no level of punishment (or if there is, it's clearly into "abuse" territory) that can act as a sufficient deterrent for one of these kids, in my experience with mine. Bribes can work-- but understand that anything that becomes a SYSTEM is doomed.

    As soon as you place extrinsic rewards and punishments around something, it becomes a power struggle, and some kids will literally do ANYTHING rather than submit to such a system.


    If you suspect that the autonomy bit is the underlying issue here, hand it over. So to speak. "I know that you can take control of your behavior so that it is within the boundaries that make it acceptable. Let me know if you have trouble and need my help to come up with ways to manage this." (Most highly autonomous children would rather chew off an arm than admit that they need HELP with something like this-- but if the behavior is truly voluntary, such a statement can work miracles-- IF the child believes in the goal, that is, which is where my earlier trio of talking points comes into things-- gaining that BUY-IN to begin with.)




    Last edited by HowlerKarma; 11/13/13 04:05 PM.

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    Quote
    We've been able to successfully alter DD's behavioral choices in three ways:

    a) you're being rude/disrespectful and you're making {authority figure} feel bad because of your behavior. Is that what you want?

    b) your behavior is leading your peers to have more difficulty in this environment. You are negatively impacting others' ability to (do whatever activity is in play). Do you have the right to limit others this way?

    c) you are a role model. What kind of behavior are you modeling for others?
    ...
    "I know that you can take control of your behavior so that it is within the boundaries that make it acceptable. Let me know if you have trouble and need my help to come up with ways to manage this."
    Appeal to their intellect. smile

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    DS6 started off this year with pretty poor behavior but has gotten much better. Most of that improvement was solely time and his anxiety level decreasing. He's still occasionally been directly rude to teachers. But it seems like it's now completely acceptable to the school. He does not have a lot of natural empathy and is not highly social, so unfortunately appealing to that side of him was not a useful strategy for us. He does respect us as parents, and feels we act fairly and reasonably, and that's what we've relied on.

    Initially we did the "we support the school 100%". That made sense because on paper the discipline system seems very rational. But sometimes his teacher would ignore the policy and just react on what seemed like more a personal level, for example jumping discipline steps and giving him a weightier punishment than a first infraction warranted. Not that we didn't sympathize with her, we are not always as consistent as we want to be either, but it was a bit unpredictable. And it just felt like lying to him to act supportive to the school about things we didn't care about or actively disagreed with. We went to the following:

    a. We have a written list of very basic house rules at home. The list contains things such as: no hitting, kicking, etc, no telling people you don't like them, help when asked to unless you have an excellent reason not to, share, and so on. DS is generally very good at adhering to these rules at home. Some things we do NOT have on the list include: "listen politely at all times", "do not interrupt your elders", "do not wiggle a lot", "do not make loud sighing noises" or anything vague such as "respect others". Our list consists of what we feel are clear and concrete rules we know he can achieve even when under stress. We reminded him of this list and that we expect him to follow our family's rules at school, always. If we're told he did the things on the list we'll follow through with the same consequences as if it had happened at home.

    b. We tell him the rest is optional to us as parents. That we do see his side of it that the rules are annoying or picky or overly strict. But that we certainly do not feel comfortable defending him in any way, it is not up to us, we are not in charge in that building. It's solely his choice. We say he either needs to follow the rules and express himself in acceptable ways, or just make himself at peace with the punishments. We now do not mention to him anything the school mentions to us regarding that latter list of things. And we don't comment to the school either on any of that, it's solely his arena.

    c. We tell him that it's a very slow process but we are working on making his day a better experience for him. And that it will help us help him if teachers and school see him as a mature and polite student. That teachers will not be going to go out of their way to make school more fun for a child who they find difficult.

    A couple times recently he has come home and with a sort of questioning bravado said he's made unpleasant noises, quietly and on purpose, while walking down the hall in the line of kids between classes. He's basically checking with us to see how we feel about it. If his teacher doesn't notice is it bad? We tell him that we don't care, but he needs to be aware he'll get in trouble some day when randomly he's caught.

    As much as I wish he didn't feel the need for that release of tension, he does, it's just how he is in this less than ideal environment. I'm happy for him to find any moments that decrease the direct friction between him and his teacher.

    I feel like if we told him he's got to just buckle down and follow every rule always, or if we went with general statements such as that he should respect others, that he'd either crack at school in a big way now and then or that he would just get more generally anxious/depressed. He's healthier when he's acting out a little bit, than when he's not.

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    hnz1979 Offline OP
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    @Polly your ds sounds a lot like mine! This has been a rough week. Things run in trends.

    The big issue is the school doesn't understand nor has time for non-compliance. He has been on Parent Contact twice this week which warrants discipline at home. We are focusing on good choices/bad choices and WHY we share and use kind words. School and everyone wants to force him to comply and the clip chart does nothing. Stoping to address why he is misbehaving and why it makes other feel bad etc would work better. You can't force this kid to comply he has a backbone of steel. He isn't always empathetic but can be when he wants to be. I have to appeal to the empathy and not try to force him, let him accept the consequences.

    But public schools are very misinformed about gifted traits. Simply realizing the cause of his behavior would help greatly!!

    Thanks Polly for sharing. It is encouraging to me. I feel like we are finding the middle of the road. I won't shame or berate my child to conform. His low self esteem stems from their projected feelings concerning his defiance. I don't approve of what he always does, but i don't approve of their choices always either.

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    Oh the one thing that seemed to help my DS be more empathetic towards his teacher was in a calm moment we went into some detail educating him on how public education is structured. Basically made gross generalizations and told him that people in our state capital, who don't even know his name, dictate specifically what the teacher is to say. That they make rules based on what worked for some group of kids at some school some years ago, and that they then apply that logic across the state. Therefore any other teacher, even in another town, would have the same expectations and might even be using the same words. This was all a big surprise to DS. He had assumed that the teacher (or if not then the principal) organizes the day, chooses the material, says what she wants, decides what students are allowed to say and do, etc. Certainly helps him like the teacher more in theory, but getting through the day is still hard for him.

    Per the principal at DSs school the teacher is allowed to exempt DS from assignments, change the content or challenge of them, etc. If his teacher would just do so, even just a little bit, he would likely be a lot happier and less difficult for her. It's first grade and they have no testing that matters to the school. How is it that difficult to see?

    Do you have any other school choices for next year?


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    This topic caught my attention because I used to be a strong-willed little hellion. (Still am, really wink ) I don't know if this will be of any help to you, but I found this Davidson article to be insightful for me: http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10114.aspx


    "Type II
    The Challenging
    Type II's are the divergently gifted. Many school systems fail to identify Type II gifted children for programs unless the programs have been in place at least five years and substantial inservicing has been done with teachers. Type II's typically possess a high degree of creativity and may appear to be obstinate, tactless, or sarcastic. They often question authority and may challenge the teacher in front of the class. They do not conform to the system, and they have not learned to use it to their advantage. They receive little recognition and few rewards or honors. Their interactions at school and at home often involve conflict.

    These children feel frustrated because the school system has not affirmed their talents and abilities. They are struggling with their self-esteem. They may or may not feel included in the social group. Some Type II's also challenge their peers, and therefore are often not included or welcomed in activities or group projects; on the other hand, some Type II's have a sense of humor and creativity that is very appealing to peers. Nevertheless their spontaneity may be disruptive in the classroom. In spite of their creativity, Type II's often possess negative self-concepts."

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