Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Is This A Red-Flag?

The other day our first grader son came home from school with a math worksheet to be completed and returned later. When I saw what was on it, I just felt my heart sink. An example of the content: Counting by twos (fill in the missing number). DS said it was preschool math.

Since he recently scored >99% on MAP testing in math for first grade, I assumed the teacher would not bother to send such sheets home for him any longer.

So, my husband and I had a meeting with her about his math level and the work he's to expect this year. We asked for him to be moved up into 2nd grade, to which she said he already was! (This is a non-graded, blended class charter school.) We didn't realize he had been bumped up, and certainly the worksheet didn't seem to reflect that. She said that it was 2nd grade math, though. So, I asked if DS could take an end-of-the-year math test for 2nd grade to see if he knows the material. I emphasized I didn't know what, if anything, he would show gaps in. She said they didn't have a single test that covered all the math that would be taught. I thought this was strange since another teacher there told DH and me during orientation that if an advanced child can pass a test at the end of their book, then they don't have to do that book and can move on. This teacher and DS' have both been working at the school long enough to know the procedure, so I'm frankly confused by the seeming discrepancy.

But here is why I asked about the "red-flag"...She proceeded to talk about how DS isn't able to keep himself from yelling out answers he knows, so he's not mature enough to work with the 3rd grade class. Oh-oh. Didn't I read someplace that teachers throw up the social aspect to quell a parent's enthusiasm for acceleration? I don't doubt that he's been speaking out-of-turn sometimes, so perhaps she's correct in keeping him in 2nd?

Then Teacher went on to say that she can give him work from the 2nd grade "challenge book". When I asked if that would be in place of what he's being given now or in addition to, she said in addition to. I told her that I didn't want DS to feel penalized with more work than the other kids. To which she didn't offer any solution.

I really want to know what to say from here. We have a formal PTC coming the end of this month.

If she doesn't want him to answer the questions, she should ask harder questions.

And yes that's a classic red-flag.

I should probably add that I brought in a stack of completed third grade worksheets from DS' private school Kindergarten. That teacher gave him those instead of the Kindergarten work because he was being disruptive (bored) during math time.

I let Teacher keep them to look them over since they showed six digit addition with regrouping, as the last thing he was doing in June. I know the second grade class isn't doing this yet. For that matter, is the third? They came back with DS later that day with a note saying thanks for sharing.

Going through the same thing. My 6 year old in first grade knows how to do double digit multiplication, division, fractions, etc. and is bringing home 5+2 math (at least it improved from the beginning of the year where it was 2+2--wow, they're moving right along!). At my request, the teacher gave him the second grade test and he passed it, so if he was to be subject accelerated, it should be 2 years. I would be happy with 1.

Subject acceleration won't work because of the "schedule" although I think it would if they really tried to figure it out. DS is supposedly doing an "enrichment packet"--but DS claims the math in the packet is the exact same math that everyone else is doing. Nothing is ever brought home so I have no idea what he's doing in school. Who knows what is really going on. I finally gave up and bought him a Singapore Math workbook at the third grade level, and he is doing a page or two every day after school. I tear it out and send it back in his folder, telling DS that his teacher assigned it to him (I told the teacher I was doing this--didn't ask, really--just informed her). My hope is that when he starts 2nd grade next year he can do a double skip for math. I plan to have him in a different school, maybe even in a different district. When I school-search, I will ask about this specifically.

DS informs everyone he doesn't learn anything in school, but he doesn't appear unhappy. If he was, I would probably be more pushy about accelerating him. Sorry I don't really have any advice. I think being as pushy I was, DS got a "packet" (maybe?)to do during independent work time, but that's as much as the teacher is going to do.

Can you ask to see the book/curriculum for the remainder of the year in 2nd grade math? Honestly, I think that counting by 2 in 2nd grade math is a huge red flag of a low-level curriculum for any children, not just high ability kids! But never mind that for now... I think that knowing what the remainder of the 2nd grade curriculum is would be helpful in knowing for sure whether or not your ds belongs in 3rd grade math, or whether or not this is just a temporary blip leading into a deeper concept (stretching here lol!) with the count-by-2 worksheet.

I also think that if your ds is blurting out of turn, then that's an issue you need to address with him, no matter what class level he's in. Is the yelling out answers something that is only happening during math (I think he has the same teacher - or is it a different teacher?)? I think I'd want to dig a bit deeper here, try to figure out what's behind the yelling out answers behavior and see if you can help your ds try to learn how to raise his hand and wait his turn. See if his teacher has any suggestions you can help with.

My suggestion re what you need (just in general) for the next PTC is showing that you're working to help your ds work toward not yelling out answers out of turn, and you need to have a good idea of what the 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade math curriculum is and where your ds falls within it.

Best wishes,

polarbear

^ yes, to all of what polarbear has stated above.

Of course

Special emphasis on this point from my perspective-- if the curriculum itself is moving THIS slowly/remedially, that is a red flag all of its own.

Such a school is not likely to be capable of providing (long-term) for the needs of an HG+ child who is years beyond even rigorous/good age-level curriculum.

In other words, if you're trying to bridge a 2 y gap with in-class differentiation, that's one thing... but what if it's 5y? 6y?

I think that you may need to see an overview of the scope and sequence here for the next two or three years in order to come up with even a short-range plan. It's going to take a lot of energy to make this work, I think-- best to know now whether this is a reasonable case of "fixer-upper" or if you're basically dealing with a completely draining, ongoing advocacy situation. That way you can make decisions accordingly.

Good luck.

I will ask to take home the second grade math book to look it over. Possibly the third grade, as well.

That worksheet was so upsetting to me it's taken a week for me to calm down enough to ask this question here. I was stunned by it's simplicity for a so-called second grade level.

Yes, if it's a matter of unchallenging math curriculum in general, then we are seriously in trouble here. The school says it meets each child at their level, but now I'm wondering. Not seeing it much yet.

Perhaps if this PTC doesn't produce an agreeable solution, we should ask for the principal to intervene? During the orientation I asked what happens to the eighth grader who needs high school level work. She said she teaches them. (She's a former high school math teacher.)

I'm not loving the prospect of this not being a viable solution for DS. It would absolutely mean homeschooling. Since he's an only child in a rural setting with limited contact with other kids, this would be brutal. Perhaps an online school's community would make up for that lack, but I'm not sure.

My admittedly very jaded opinion is that the teacher probably knows that your son is capable of doing harder work but she probably isn't going to do much to help him. I've been down this road many times and have heard all kinds of reasons about why [insert request] isn't possible.

She needs practice at x.

We're afraid of gaps in learning.

I was always taught to use my best students, so I get him to tutor the kids who struggle.

Everyone has to do stuff they don't like (fine for cleaning your room but not for a place where learning is supposed to be the entire point).

Our math program is outstanding. (Message: this discussion is over)

I assure you that Miss X is really an amazing teacher and she is doing what's best for your child.

"If" your child is really gifted, as you claim....

Etc.

When people aren't interested, they aren't interested. But (IMO,) they won't usually be honest about why they aren't interested. They'll tell you something that sounds good to them and will want you to play nice and let it go. I've tried many approaches, from excessive politeness and playing it their way to being a PITA. Nothing has changed anything, ever, unless the teacher or the school had an open mind long before I came along. In that scenario, the polite route always worked the first time, whether I was making the request or they were. No conferences, no meetings, no stress, no nothing past a simple polite and reasonable request.

I've accepted that for my kids, I have to teach them at home. End of story.

So my message to you is to hope for the best in your meeting, but prepare to be rejected. If they let your son move up, great. But have a plan for what you'll do if they don't. You may want to consider teaching the Common Core standards. I've linked to an example for fractions.

I'm blinking away tears, now. Perhaps this is still too raw to talk about.

(big breath)

The charter has had two evaluation reports, performed by our state university, over the last two school years. I got a copy a couple of days ago on the one performed for the 2012-2013 school year. It shows the kids in the charter perform 10% higher than the state average in math, and 20% higher than the school district. They receive a rating of: Exceeding for Comparative Student Achievement.

However, how many kids in that are advanced in math and skew the overall percentage? I don't know.

Recommendations by the evaluation team states a policy be developed that outlines a regular curriculum review process to ensure that they are aligned with the Common Core. I suppose this means they are still working on that change-over to Common Core. (That link you sent: DS was working with fractions in the summer before Kindy.)

---
When we were sitting with his teacher, we shared a bit on what he was doing mathematically at four. She just put her hands to her cheeks and said that's amazing. Then she looked at DH and me and asked, "So which, or is it both of you...". (Asking which presumably was the math nerd.) We said neither, it must come from down the family tree.

I would get something in place so your son can still move forward with math. There are plenty of things you can do at home if it boils down to it. It can even be fun.
How is he doing in other subjects? How did he score on the other MAPs test?
How does he like school in general.

This is what I would have posted too. And another excuse that I have heard in addition to all the above: We only teach to the top 80 percentile of the class and if your child is in that range, his needs will be met. Ha!

Challenging curriculum in lower elementary math for my child has been the jump from, 4+5 to 14+15 kind of stuff. But, he is generally happy because he is with other kids, he gets to do new stuff in math - they let him measure temperature with real thermometers, count pennies and work on geoboards all of which he loves to do.

My child is drastically accelerated - he is taught outside of school. School is for fun! I am not trying to put a damper on your enthusiasm. If you can make it work, that would be the best thing for your child. If not, don't give up hope. Explore how you can teach or get your child into a local enrichment club or afterschool program that meets your child's intellectual needs.

Good luck.

I'm so sorry that things aren't going well. It really hurts. At least you're not alone and at least this group can help in many ways.

As for the CC link: my DD9 is highly accelerated in math at home with me, but that hasn't stopped me from going over the CC standards with her, starting at grade 3. There is a lot of very important conceptual information in them. These standards were developed by mathematicians and are different from the stuff that you see in textbooks or elsewhere. Their goal is to ensure that kids understand how mathematical ideas fit together at a fundamental level. The differences between them and the basic ideas in textbooks or workbooks are ultimately quite significant. I encourage anyone here who's home- or afterschooling to teach at least the chapter on fractions (unless you're one of the lucky ones whose school teaches this information already). Though really, everything is really good.

Um-- okay, but keep in mind that what passes for "state standards" in most places has been abysmally low in terms of standards for basic numeracy.

So "Exceeds" benchmarks just means that most kids in the school are performing at my personal (admittedly jaded) 30th percentile or up. For grade level.

What it often means is that test-prep and drill-and-kill are the order of the day, at least in grades K-8. Because this is what produces reasonable test score gains in KIDS who are at the 25th through 60th percentiles, and that IS the group that teachers must focus on in order to maintain acceptable test scores.

Sorry-- but 'school report cards' don't really mean much here.

ITA about the Common Core highlights, btw. Good stuff.

Just wanted to say that everything that Val said has been our experience - in just one year of academic schooling. We were finally granted a three year subject acceleration which my son started a few weeks ago. We see already though that the pacing is still so very slow. So DS is happy for the new experience and new classroom but it is still too slow for him. The new math teacher has ALREADY called us in for a meeting. Why? DS doesn't want to write out the ridiculous steps to answer a problem. He has told her , "can't I just solve the problem and move to the next one?". Right now he is obliging and writing out simple steps, but this won't last long. So we are looking at another acceleration next year or just more homeschooling.

ˆˆˆ that would be SO great - i'd just silently hand it to all the people in our lives who criticize our weird-looking (yet very deliberate, and very necessary) decisions and then walk away.

It is a red flag because that does sound substantiallly below 2nd grade level. However, keep in mind that it is common for homework to be below the level of the classwork so it would be helpful to actually look at the class assignments instead. It is also possible that both the teachers you spoke to were consistent. End of year tests are necessarily limited and will not cover everything in the curriculum for one school year. However, there will be testing (likely more than one) to determine acceleration. For example, DS actually took several end-of-year tests as well as a specially designed math ability test to accelerate when he was in 2nd grade.

Our schools are "data driven" so teachers are required to pre test and post test the kids beginning of the year and end of the year. For math each grade level math book comes with theses tests. I do believe they are split into part a and part b and given over two days. They cover all the "big ideas" (main concepts) and almost all of the minor ones. I don't believe there are many problems per concept. They also have the computerized STAR (by the AR people not the California test) Math test.

My point is the pretests/end of year test in our schools do cover the entire year curriculum.

I'm really not too surprised by DS' progress report that came out today.

It says he's excellent in math, phonics, and spelling. He also received a plus in "works independently". However he received a "needs improvement" in self-discipline and "being attentive during discussion and instruction".

Sound familiar to anyone?

Perhaps he would be more self-disciplined and attentive if the class were more interesting?

I didn't read through the whole thread, however, we did run into the easy repetitive math homework timed math facts worksheets issue which our eldest DS had already mastered.

Upon entering the next grade they started the whole process again! We simply informed the teacher that our DS would not be returning those take home worksheets, there was simply no way we were going to support such unnecessary poor use of his time, it wasn't a discussion, it was a simple statement of fact.

Yes, that sounds familiar. Good for him on the works independently plus. He might be more attentive if the class was more interesting, but then again, he's a first grader. I think self-discipline is tough at that age for many children. They are really just learning that control.

What did they say?

It really caught them off guard. Something along the lines of, "Oh.....well.....I guess we'll just have to find other work for him." To which I replied, "I'd very much appreciate that, something more in line with his abilities"

The way I looked at it, what did I have to lose? What were they going to do? Not let him advance to the next grade after already demonstrating mastery the previous year? If he got a poor grade / review in math in the 3rd grade (shrug) big deal. It's not like it's going to be looked at by colleges. He had already mastered the material and had proven he's done so. If I made him do it again what would that be saying about how I value my son's time and efforts? All too often as adults we think our time is valuable but the time of a young person is not, I don't subscribe to that.

I really agree with this Old Dad - thanks for sharing it. I have had the same feeling about my son's math homework - it is so very beneath his level... As of now, howeever, it is not much and takes him seconds so I haven't resorted to this yet but wondering if/when I should. We do so much in the afternoons, it's nice not having homework. I did do something along these lines in the beginning of the year - the teacher gives two pages of math hw, one "enrichment" and one "practice"... Ds would skip practice and go right for "enrichment" .. teacher told him he has to do practice first then he can do enrichment if he wants. I said "uh no" the "practice" is years below him (and the enrichment is not much better!) - no way he is wasting his time doing that crap just to get to the enrichment!

I'm really heartened to hear about parents like OldDad refusing to comply with schools' requirements that their children to do busywork. That, to me, speaks volumes to children about how valuable childhood is. You only have one opportunity to be free to learn about the world unencumbered by survival concerns; why not be allowed to be a child and learn unfettered by arbitrary rules? Just wonderful. That's inspiring parenting.

Well, I took a page out of your book on that one.

DS11's math teacher was forcing the kids to do something called "additive subtraction." Why sixth graders in a pre-algebra class need to learn how to do basic subtraction is a topic for another day. Anyway, the school's method involves writing sentences to the right of the problem, along the lines of:

234       9+5=14 Carry the 1.
-149       4+8=12 Carry the 1.
 85       1+0=1

(Something like that, anyway.)

Teacher claims that this method is "faster" than the standard algorithm. DS wouldn't do it in class, and using the standard algorithm, he got the correct answer first.

So she started sending it home as homework. DH and I signed a note saying (essentially) that DS would not be doing additive subtraction, and that, as they say, was that. Happily, she just sent an email giving him "permission" to use regrouping.

You're right that middle school (U.S.) math is absurdly remedial. But don't be too dismissive of other methods. Converting a-b=? to b+?=a is quite sensible (as long as the stuff you wrote on the side can be done as mental math without writing it).

I almost feel that I should be putting this in the brag thread but (God willing long may this last) one of the good things about the current standardized testing mania is that DD's 4th grade teacher saw DD8 score 95% on the 'end of year' test in the first week of school and that the 5% she missed were just careless mistakes or bad questions.

For homework the teacher sets a 'study island' module every week which is electronically monitored; each pupil is expected to do this for 50 mins a week and there is a 'qualifying' test to show mastery. DD's teacher just wants her to do the test (which takes her <5 mins) and then DD spends the rest of the 50 mins doing stuff like the challenging word problems or Lure of the Labyrinth.

This teacher has gifted kids herself and totally gets it!

It must be written down. In a certain way that involves drawing boxes.

Huzzah! I have uncrossed my fingers to cheer for what sounds like a very supportive teacher. You must be relieved.

Okay, the rigid setting out requirements, and the remedial level, are ridiculous, I agree. But it is worth understanding the idea of solving

5026-
2819
----
????

by thinking of it as

2819+
????
----
5026

Coming back to this to update.

At the PTC, the teacher surprised us by showing an end-of-year test she gave DS for third grade math. He scored 72% correct. She said it was impressive (he answered a question on perimeter correctly) and thanked us for bringing to her attention a couple weeks before that he needed to be tested to determine if he could could move up. So, as of yesterday, DS has been moved from second grade math to third. He's finally going to run up against things he doesn't know, and he's excited!

As for his shouting out answers as being her hesitation in moving him into third grade math, she said he's shown acceptable restraint since we talked and that wasn't a factor any longer. I was glad to hear that!

It was like a weight lifted off my shoulders when she pulled out that end-of-year test. I thought I was going to have to bring the whole subject up again. It was a pleasant surprise.

It would be better if she admitted that it never should have been a factor in the first place.

That's really great. Congrats on that.

Yes and no. The concept is obviously important, so yes in that regard. But it's simple idea that doesn't need to be taught using four-digit numbers. It can easily taught by turning 8-3=? into 3+?=8. In this case, the concept is very easy to see because the calculation will be obvious to most students. Thus, they can focus on the addition concept without getting trapped in the details of the calculation (in which case they may not see the forest for the trees). So no in that regard.

As Master of None said in another thread, educators seem to find ways to fail. IMO, this is one of them: take a straightforward concept that can easily be demonstrated by one-digit fact families or on a number line, twist it, and create something capable of confusing an engineer or a scientist.

No. It is not just that a-b=c is equivalent to b+c=a. The point is also that you can use this to find a difference, but using what you know about finding sums. And this is clearly different for 4 digits than for 1 digit. It gives a more efficient and natural algorithm for multidigit subtraction than the grotesque method typically taught in American schools.

This is definitely not an example of what master of none was referring to here.
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....icle_on_ability_grouping.html#Post175845

No, it's the same for 4 digits and 1 digit. That's a major point in mathematics: concepts aren't different, don't change or fail to apply because you use different numbers. It has to work every time or it's wrong.

If you're referring to subtraction with regrouping, I'm not sure why you're calling the standard algorithm grotesque. However, I do know that many folks without a solid understanding of mathematics and how its pieces fit together often mistakenly believe that the standard methods are somehow bad and should not be taught. There is a LOT of misinformation out there. I recommend reading this paper by a mathematician from UC Berkeley. He does a good job of explaining why misunderstandings arise. He also discusses the importance of the standard algorithms and how they fit together in the broader tapestry of mathematics.

It's a bit like you're saying that a red triangle is the same thing as a red circle because they are both red. You are ignoring the obvious difference.

Okay, when people respond with a straw man, I know it's time to quit.

What?! 4 digit arithmetic is not the same as 1 digit arithmetic. When it comes to designing an algorithm to actually do the computation, the multi-digit case requires extra concepts. The difference is real.

It is an important concept to understand but why add another algorithm to memorise? We often naturally use additive subtraction for mental arithmetic but if I was using pen and paper the algorithm I was taught seems simpler.

puffin this is exactly my response to the ridiculous algorithms that my kids are being taught at school these days - which make perfect sense as mental solutions and are a dogs breakfast on paper.

If you are in Aus, NZ, Europe or most other places, the "standard algorithm for subtraction" is completely sensible.

In the US there is a very different "standard algorithm for subtraction" which is an absolute dog's breakfast.

Well I do have "a solid understanding of mathematics and how its pieces fit together" and so inevitably I "believe that the standard method" of subtraction as it is taught in the USA is "bad and should not be taught".

People who are ignorant of the other methods for multi-digit subtraction actually believe that gratuitously complicated nonsense such as "Regrouping Across Zeros" is necessary to be able to do all multi-digit subtractions. Somehow this ridiculous method has become entrenched in the US educational system for the past several decades, and too many people can't or won't see how bad it is.