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    Val Offline
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    There always seems to be a certain level of uncertainty and stress in these hothousing threads. Personally, I don't like the term "hothouse." A hothouse is a warm nurturing environment for plants that keeps them safe from the weather outside. Why is that bad? I get the impression from some of the messages here that parents who teach stuff to their kids in the absence of the kid begging are somehow doing something bad. This leads to the idea that only gifted kids should be taught by mom and dad.

    It seems perfectly reasonable (to me at least) for any parent to teach stuff to his/her child. There are loads of perfectly valid reasons for teaching math or music or reading to a child outside of school. As has been pointed out, there are times when, as a parent, you have to teach your child the importance of doing something or following through on something even when you'd rather be doing something else.

    Obviously, there are parents out there who live vicariously through their kids and end up treating them in unhealthy ways. Amy Chua's thing with not letting her kid pee or eat until she got some chord just right is a perfect example of that. Parents who consider an A- to be a bad grade are another example of that. Parents who use their kids as status symbols are a third example.

    I'm not going to say that forcing your kid to do something when he's miserable is one of those things. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It's easy to identify the extremes but not so easy to identify the stuff in the middle. I expect we all make mistakes in that regard.

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    Originally Posted by ashley
    Dude, on the topic of Amy Chua, a lot of people tend to miss her whole point - every single thing she says in her book is not to be taken at face value. This is a really smart woman who is using a ton of self-deprecating, tongue in cheek humor to sell a lot of books on the topic of how she raised her daughters.
    Amy Chua's daughter got into an Ivy League college. Her daughters were not hothoused - they were highly talented, very smart and hardworking kids despite the impression that she gives. Her daughter Sophia loved playing the piano. It is a long shot for a hothoused kid to reach levels where they are invited to play in Carnegie Hall or get accepted to Yale. They "even out" eventually and burn out. Amy Chua simply uses certain stereotypes to reinforce her points - and it is comical and humorous if you look closely (maybe, I should have posted in the Tiger mom thread, instead).

    Again, this all goes to how you define "hothousing."

    I did not miss out on some of the gallows humor she used, particularly in that anecdote about the piano lesson, because obviously she made a bunch of threats she never intended to carry out (and Lulu called her on it).

    But reading between the lines, it's not at all clear that Lulu "loves" the piano, nor the three hours' worth of daily practice it takes up. Furthermore, the ability to play a very difficult piece on the piano at a 7yo's recital would be significantly outside of age-appropriate expectations, so why is she forcing her child to spend so much of her time at it, displacing other activities which are VITAL for healthy child development, when she clearly doesn't want to do it?

    What's wrong with developing the skill at the piano to play that piece at age ten?

    To me, that's a classic case of hothousing. And if a reading of her complete works leads you to conclude that she's not hothousing, then that tells me that that's what she's thinking, too.

    So yeah, she's totally unaware.

    Of course, the fact that her child played at Carnegie Hall will be used as a justification, but the research says tiger moms are mostly devouring their cubs.

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    A hothouse is a controlled artificial environment that forces plants to fruit and flower against their natural inclination.

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    Originally Posted by Ashley
    Hothousing parents tend to know that they are doing it - because it is harder to get the same results out of their kids than it is for the parents of kids who are excelling at something.

    Not necessarily. Zen Scanner made a point about an effort spectrum earlier that I agree with. A gifted hothoused child might still learn a skill more easily than a NT talented child [ETA: or another gifted child, even]. It can be tricky to disentangle the fast learning and intrinsic motivation of giftedness from hothousing on the output side of the equation. To my thinking, the relevant comparator is the child's ability to learn relative to his own best performance when not pushed, not an external comparator.



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    Originally Posted by Dude
    So yeah, she's totally unaware.

    Or aware and self-deluded. Repeat an untruth often enough to yourself and it starts to seem true.

    "I am not a hothousing mother...I am not a hothousing mother..."


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    Originally Posted by Val
    There always seems to be a certain level of uncertainty and stress in these hothousing threads. Personally, I don't like the term "hothouse." A hothouse is a warm nurturing environment for plants that keeps them safe from the weather outside. Why is that bad? I get the impression from some of the messages here that parents who teach stuff to their kids in the absence of the kid begging are somehow doing something bad. This leads to the idea that only gifted kids should be taught by mom and dad.

    It seems perfectly reasonable (to me at least) for any parent to teach stuff to his/her child. There are loads of perfectly valid reasons for teaching math or music or reading to a child outside of school. As has been pointed out, there are times when, as a parent, you have to teach your child the importance of doing something or following through on something even when you'd rather be doing something else.

    Obviously, there are parents out there who live vicariously through their kids and end up treating them in unhealthy ways. Amy Chua's thing with not letting her kid pee or eat until she got some chord just right is a perfect example of that. Parents who consider an A- to be a bad grade are another example of that. Parents who use their kids as status symbols are a third example.

    I'm not going to say that forcing your kid to do something when he's miserable is one of those things. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It's easy to identify the extremes but not so easy to identify the stuff in the middle. I expect we all make mistakes in that regard.

    Yup.

    And look, even refusing to accept an A- may not be bad... it's situational. For DD this year-- it would be really bad news. But we didn't even blink at a B when she was a freshman.


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    Originally Posted by Val
    ... A hothouse is a warm nurturing environment for plants that keeps them safe from the weather outside...
    As I understand it (and I may be wrong) the analogy developed due to the gardening practices of "forcing" a bloom when a bulb is kept warm to flower early or out-of-season. Authors have discussed "hot house tomatoes" as being bland and flavorless, as compared with those from plants which are "hardened off" as seedlings after the first frost and grow their fruits outside. Teachers have complained that "hothoused" kids are similarly sheltered from real life and unable to survive when not catered to.

    Originally Posted by Val
    Why is that bad?
    Some believe in hot-housing, others believe it is detrimental.

    Originally Posted by Val
    I get the impression from some of the messages here that parents who teach stuff to their kids in the absence of the kid begging are somehow doing something bad.
    Begging was not mentioned... just child-led or child-chosen or child-requested, supporting the child's interest in learning at their preferred, comfortable depth and pace.

    Most posters tried to maintain neutrality, not judging the practice or the parents who may hot-house, but rather focusing on:
    - whether it works,
    - whether some practices work,
    - whether it provides a temporary boost before a child's achievement/performance evens out,
    - whether it may be detrimental.

    Originally Posted by Val
    This leads to the idea that only gifted kids should be taught by mom and dad.
    Au contraire, children of all abilities may benefit from an enriched, positive environment with books, in which they are encouraged and supported to explore, inquire, and learn. Active, engaged parents who answer a child's questions may often be surprised where a conversation/exploration may lead.

    Originally Posted by Val
    It seems perfectly reasonable (to me at least) for any parent to teach stuff to his/her child.
    Absolutely! Parents are their child/ren's first teachers. Parents know their children best.

    Originally Posted by Val
    There are loads of perfectly valid reasons for teaching math or music or reading to a child outside of school. As has been pointed out, there are times when, as a parent, you have to teach your child the importance of doing something or following through on something even when you'd rather be doing something else.
    Agreed! What a humorous bunch... as evidenced by posts upthread on "hot-housing" the teaching of dish-washing, animal husbandry, yard cleanup skills, no biting, not throwing your cup on the floor, and leaving the poor dog alone... when the children have no interest in learning these life skills or manners.

    Originally Posted by Val
    Obviously, there are parents out there who live vicariously through their kids and end up treating them in unhealthy ways. Amy Chua's thing with not letting her kid pee or eat until she got some chord just right is a perfect example of that. Parents who consider an A- to be a bad grade are another example of that. Parents who use their kids as status symbols are a third example.
    While most of us would not choose to parent that way ourselves, we may walk a fine line in trying to maintain a relationship with those who are at that point... if only so that we may gently persuade them of another way of looking at the situation from perhaps their child's view.

    Originally Posted by Val
    I'm not going to say that forcing your kid to do something when he's miserable is one of those things. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It's easy to identify the extremes but not so easy to identify the stuff in the middle. I expect we all make mistakes in that regard.
    Growth mindset... we all learn as we go. smile

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    Originally Posted by aquinas
    Originally Posted by Dude
    So yeah, she's totally unaware.

    Or aware and self-deluded. Repeat an untruth often enough to yourself and it starts to seem true.

    "I am not a hothousing mother...I am not a hothousing mother..."

    I think it's more of a perspective thing... see CM's irregular verbs (one of my favorite games ever):

    I - am an involved parent
    YOU - are kinda pushy
    THEY - are hothousing to the point of child abuse

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by aquinas
    Originally Posted by Dude
    So yeah, she's totally unaware.

    Or aware and self-deluded. Repeat an untruth often enough to yourself and it starts to seem true.

    "I am not a hothousing mother...I am not a hothousing mother..."

    I think it's more of a perspective thing... see CM's irregular verbs (one of my favorite games ever):

    I - am an involved parent
    YOU - are kinda pushy
    THEY - are hothousing to the point of child abuse

    That one was a gem. You're right...the deluded hothouser pushes judgment outward, not inward per first person singular.


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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by ashley
    Dude, on the topic of Amy Chua, a lot of people tend to miss her whole point - every single thing she says in her book is not to be taken at face value. This is a really smart woman who is using a ton of self-deprecating, tongue in cheek humor to sell a lot of books on the topic of how she raised her daughters.
    Amy Chua's daughter got into an Ivy League college. Her daughters were not hothoused - they were highly talented, very smart and hardworking kids despite the impression that she gives. Her daughter Sophia loved playing the piano. It is a long shot for a hothoused kid to reach levels where they are invited to play in Carnegie Hall or get accepted to Yale. They "even out" eventually and burn out. Amy Chua simply uses certain stereotypes to reinforce her points - and it is comical and humorous if you look closely (maybe, I should have posted in the Tiger mom thread, instead).

    Again, this all goes to how you define "hothousing."

    I did not miss out on some of the gallows humor she used, particularly in that anecdote about the piano lesson, because obviously she made a bunch of threats she never intended to carry out (and Lulu called her on it).

    But reading between the lines, it's not at all clear that Lulu "loves" the piano, nor the three hours' worth of daily practice it takes up. Furthermore, the ability to play a very difficult piece on the piano at a 7yo's recital would be significantly outside of age-appropriate expectations, so why is she forcing her child to spend so much of her time at it, displacing other activities which are VITAL for healthy child development, when she clearly doesn't want to do it?

    What's wrong with developing the skill at the piano to play that piece at age ten?

    To me, that's a classic case of hothousing. And if a reading of her complete works leads you to conclude that she's not hothousing, then that tells me that that's what she's thinking, too.

    So yeah, she's totally unaware.

    Of course, the fact that her child played at Carnegie Hall will be used as a justification, but the research says tiger moms are mostly devouring their cubs.

    Dude, I so agree with you. Yet I see that Amy Chua describes her book as an exaggerated vent... or at least presents it that way now in retrospect. In the end, what we take away from this is... dark humor or abusive truth... would we choose to parent our child that way?

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