Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Gifted but with other problems

Hello, I am new to the group, so hopefully I am posting this in the right place. My child is in 3rd grade and identified as Gifted. He scored 138 on his IQ test in Kindergarten (and they did think he wouldn't even pass because Kindergartners don't have the life experience to usually pass an IQ test, so his IQ is probably even much higher than that) I am however having many problems with him. His intelligence is high but everything else seems to be below his age level. Not only do I have many problems with him at home, but in school he is suffering really bad. He can't remember to do things on his own, like turn in his homework, he is very disorganized, no matter how much the teachers require organization. He has meltdowns over nothing, he takes molehills and turns them into the Himalayas. He refuses to do classwork as well as homework, and if you try to force him, he goes into fits of rage. He is very slow at everything, getting ready for school, walking across a field, etc...he seems to have some serious problems that are not just general kid stuff. I have had people talk to him, but he is very well spoken, and he doesn't really tell the truth when they talk to him, and it ends there. He will tell someone that he does this because he doesn't want to stop playing his video games in his room, but he doesn't have video games in his room. They don't seem to see the issue, because they don't realize he is lying. At first I thought he was lying for that reason, tell them what they want to hear and they will leave him alone.. but now I'm wondering if he is lying because he doesn't know why he does the things he does, and just comes up with an excuse. I reached out to his school for help, and they completely shot me down, they said they have nothing at the school to help him and that I am his mother and if I can't get him to do his homework what did I expect them to do. I am at a complete loss. I give him consequences and he doesn't seem to care, I take things away and he doesn't seem to care. The school keeps sending notes home, that he's not doing this, or that, but won't do anything to help me. Everyone that I speak with outside of the school, seem to understand what I am telling them, and tell me that they hear it's common for gifted children to have this uneven development, to have these emotional problems, and other issues- you would think that if other people have heard this then the school (that is equipped with counselors and a psychologist) would expect these issues from some gifted children, and have a way to handle it, work around it, or understand it. He is in the gifted program which in his elementary school is only 1 class, and it's his gifted teacher that I get the most complaints from. Does anybody else experience these issues and have an advice?

Welcome, there is lots of information on the forum.

There are organizational skills and tips which can be taught. Specific organizational difficulty may be outgrown or may indicate LD/2e, with possible supports or accommodations provided in school.

Gifted kids may have asynchronous development, are often intense, and may be frustrated or complain of boredom if they do not have a challenge worthy of their potential.

Diet and allergies can be issues for some kids.

Rage and lying may indicate something deeper, possibly becoming a concern for his own safety or that of others.

Testing may help identify and separate different aspects of behaviors you are seeing, as well as provide strategies.

You may wish to learn all you can about gifted characteristics, organizational skills, testing, misdiagnosis & dual diagnoses, living with intensity. The Davidson Database, SENG website, Hoagies Gifted Education Page, and existing threads on gifted forums are great places to begin your research.

It sounds like he is willing to be honest with you, which is a big plus. Have you tried asking him about not completing homework, how he feels about school... the other kids, the curriculum content, etc? Have you tried introducing organizational strategies (assignment notebook, reward stickers, dry-erase board, color-coded folders, sitting with him and praising progress, showing an interest in what he is learning, reminiscing about how well you enjoyed that subject back in the day, etc)? You may wish to begin keeping a log, including positives and challenges throughout the day, as well as what was eaten. This may prove invaluable later.

Keeping a collection of his favorite projects and ideas as a portfolio showcasing his strengths may also be a good idea.

The slowness and disorganization are characteristics of ADHD. Have you looked into an evaluation? My DD (third grade) has ADHD and has that characteristic of lying for no apparent reason or just making things up (and she somehow spins things so that they are very believable--reminds me of a sociopath). She also does very impulsive things (like draw on the walls or break things) and then lies about it. She is "almost" normal on medication-- there is a big difference between meds and no meds.

Does the school have a psychologist or a behavior specialist? In your shoes I would either have an independent psychological evaluation, or request that the school do a comprehensive evaluation. Put your request in writing. It sounds to me like there is more going on than just being gifted.

Hi,

Thank you so much for responding! I definitely need to learn more. He has been in Gifted for a couple of years, and it was never a problem. In Kindergarten when his teacher had problems with him, she just passed it off as part of him being gifted, and seemed to understand that she needed to treat or handle him a little differently than the other students. In second grade the same thing, his teacher commonly referred to him as "the Nutty Professor" The Professor with all his stuff falling out of his brief case. Second grade is when it started to fall apart. His teacher expected all students to act a certain way, be organized, expected students to remember to turn in their homework and other things on their own- and his brain doesn't seem to function that way. She had a lot of problems with him. She would call me from the classroom because he was having a complete meltdown,and you could hear him in the background just screaming. Third grade has not started off any better, the same kind of teacher- she is not as obsessive as last year's teacher was, but it's the same standard. For his gifted teachers- in Kindergarten he was fine, he wasn't in there for very long because he was tested in Kindergarten so he didn't get in until the end of the school year. 1st grade she found him extremely difficult, and out of frustration called me into her office and told me that he was never going to fit into a mainstream school and that I needed to find other placement for him because as he got older he was only going to get worse. She clearly didn't want him in her class. She left that year and to my relief he got another teacher, who I hoped would be more tolerant and understanding of him, but no. She the same way as the other teachers, he has to remember his HW and other stuff on his own. He constantly leaves his HW at school, when he does bring it home and do it he forgets to turn it in.
At home, I have decided his brain is just wired different. I have signs up everywhere reminding him to do simple tasks. Signs in the bathroom that say, "Don't forget to comb your hair, Don't forget to turn off the light, Don't forget to wash your hands" On the dining room table I have a sign that says "put your dishes in the sink" On the front door I have a sign that says "Do you have your backpack, lunchbox, glasses"
I do try to be supportive of his passions- he loves art. He loves to do arts and crafts and he loves to draw, paint, etc.. so rather than having the dinning room table in the dinning room, it is in the livingroom, and the dining room is his art area. He has all his arts and crafts stuff, desk to draw, paints. The walls are filled with his creations. He can put whatever he wants on the wall, he can't draw on the wall, just hang up any and all creations he wants.
We have recently started a behavior system at home, that I heard about. It seems to be working so far, but that just may be because it is new, and it may wear off. It's a marble system- he gets marbles for things that he does good. Different color marbles for things that he does wrong. He has to earn certain number of marbles to do daily things that he enjoys and then a certain number of marbles to do weekly things he enjoys. I put charts on the wall to remind him of some of the things he needs to do to get marbles, and how many marbles he needs for each reward.
I have a lot of problems with him at home, but biggest concern though is school, at home I have some control of being able to remind him about things- but school, he is expected to perform just like all the other kids or expected to perform at a higher standard and he just isn't going to. They won't remind him to bring his HW home, and they won't remind him to turn it in. He is expected to stay on task and perform high on his assignments- and I have come to the conclusion his brain just doesn't function like that. It's nothing new.. you hear about people like Albert Einstein who was a genius, but very eccentric- anytime they ever portray a gifted person whether in a movie or book, that person is always eccentric. I would think that the school with a gifted program would account for that in their program, and make accommodations for it, but it's just basically a higher learning class and that is it. I think another problem to is that they dropped the IQ standard down to allow for more children to get in, and so they just may be really bright and don't have the problems my child does. It's frustrating because the school won't do anything to help him while he is there, and blames me as the parent for his problems. I'm starting to understand how parents of autistic children and parents with ADHD children felt before they became widely accepted in the school systems, and the school systems started to work with them.

I really like the advice you have been given above, and would urge you to see a psychologist for an evaluation. The school is clearly resistant to offering any assistance, and your son sounds like he is really struggling. Both you and your son need guidance to support his journey through school. Good luck.

Gail Post/ www.giftedchallenges.com

@Blackcat- he doesn't have any problems with attention though, he doesn't stay on task for his classwork, but I think he might just be bored with learning that, or it doesn't interest him and so his mind wanders.. but when he draws, he can draw for hours- I have been trying to get him to clean his room, and just refuses, so last Sunday I told him that he could not come out of his room (except to eat, drink, and pee) until he cleans his room- no TV, no toys, not nothing- he laid on his floor, he laid under his bed, he did nothing but lay around in his room ALL day... and never cleaned his room.. how he did that I have no idea, I would have been bored by at least the first hour...he was easy to get up for school the next day though.. he got plenty of rest.

@GailP
I did have him talk to a psychologist, and he lies and he sounds so absolutely believable that they don't see the problem... Like it was said above about their kid, he lies so believably almost like a psychopath, and everybody believes him- it's so simple just take the video games out of his room, the end-but he doesn't have video games in his room. Heck if I did he would destroy them in a matter of minutes. That is another thing about him, he takes care of nothing. He will destroy anything and he doesn't seem to care. He loves Pokemon, he loves collecting the cards, but he scatters them everywhere and doesn't care if they get torn or misplaced. Someone mentioned to me about taking him to a Occupational specialist for an evaluation, do you think that might be a good idea? I would have to get his Pediatrician to refer him and last time I talked about his problems he told me to take parenting classes- that seems to be the common response though is to take parenting classes.. I think I am a good parent..I did sign up for some though.. they start next month.. I don't know if they will help, because I don't think his problems are anything I am doing wrong as a parent, and I don't think milestones for his age are going to be the same as his milestones, but I will try anything at this point- you never know

The thing with ADHD though, is that they CAN stay on task if they are very engaged. My DD for example, could put together large jigsaw puzzles on her own even when she was 3 or 4, and listen to entire chapter books on audio. So that really threw me off. It wasn't until I went into her 1st grade classroom and volunteered that I could see how unfocused she was compared to the other kids, and how long it took her to do things. She was slow with transitions, had to be reminded about everything, etc. But during group time she was able to sit very still and looked reasonable (although kind of spaced out). Ask the teacher how long it takes him to complete work...not something simple and boring like math that is too easy, but something else like writing a story (where the child determines their own level).

@blackcat... oh I didn't know that... that sounds just like him, he was very good at puzzles at 2 and 3 years old, would put them together all day long- maybe that is a possibility.. thank you so much for the information

One of my kids had a very similar profile at that age. She was diagnosed with something called a non-verbal learning disability. Like your son, she was quite articulate, and we had some trouble getting a diagnosis.

Here is a pretty good website on it:

http://www.nldontheweb.org/

My kid is now a freshman at college, and while she still struggles with organization, she seems to be holding her own. Just so you know that if it turns out that his is your son's issue (or part of it), that many of the challenges can be overcome. Also, my D is actually in a math-related major -- she is good at math, although has some slow processing speed issues. So even though her test scores are lower on the non-verbal side, she is actually pretty good at math and is pursuing a STEM major.

Here is a quick read about ADHD, as another poster mentioned that possibility:
WebMD, 2 pages - http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-symptoms
You will find more links.

Might he enjoying drawing pictures to be his reminders?

What a wonderful arrangement! This may give him lots of choices for what he likes best, to keep in a portfolio, as the works retire from being exhibited on the walls of his art studio.


That may be something to keep in a written log.


What may be eccentric to one person may be a disability to another. It is a matter of degree, ability to function.


Reading your school's gifted policies, special ed policies, and wrightslaw may help shed some light on this. Meanwhile other recent threads have discussed finding testers... some lists include the Hoagies Gifted Education Page (links- http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm, http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/professionals.htm) and National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC) and its State Affiliates which may offer a list of testers in your area. The sooner he may be tested, the sooner he may feel better.

IMO your child's struggles need the help of someone who can perform a neuropsych eval and who understands giftedness. Tapping into your local GT community might reveal suggestions about who would be a good clinician to provide help. A lot of what you write is stuff I experienced with my son, who is gifted and was also diagnosed with ADHD. Please know the psychologist who tested him did not wish to diagnose AD/HD (gifted kids can compensate so well!) and referred him to a neuropsych for eval. I should have followed my instinct and just jumped to the neuropsych right away and saved that initial expense. A neuropsych can diagnose things other than AD/HD, in case some other type of learning disorder or executive functioning issue is present. What is important, is to seek diagnosis as soon as possible. This is all from my own experiences as a mother who did NOT want to pursue the AD/HD path but wishes I would have done so earlier. Doing it as soon as possible, then treating it properly, can alleviate so many problems caused by the child's behaviors, within the family and outside the family. Has a parent or relative been diagnosed with AD/HD? That could be a clue that possibly your child has it as well. Hope this helps....

Thank you all so much for your advice.. it has been very helpful

Welcome to the group CrazyMom2013. You've already gotten quite a bit of great advice, so I don't have much more to add. I'll second (*strong* second) that from what you've written, a neuropsych eval is something I would seriously consider. Your sweet ds is having some type of struggle, but the symptoms and behaviors you've written about could be *anything* really - there are so many challenges that overlap - some have mentioned ADHD, there was a mention of NVLD, the disorganization you mentioned was a *huge* issue for my ds for many years, and his diagnosis is Developmental Coordination Disorder. A neuropysch will help pull apart the different pieces of the puzzle, you'll come away with a better understanding of what's *really* going on, and you will be given a bit of a roadmap to move forward on re therapies, accommodations, etc if they are needed.


Also, just fwiw, there's no doubt you have a very very smart young son, and 138 is a high score on an IQ test - but IQ tests aren't tests that people have to have life experience under their belts to do well on - an IQ test isn't a "pass-fail" kind of thing or something that a person can really prep and study for to get a higher score on the actual questions asked. It does sometimes help to be a bit older so issues of maturity don't creep in, such as a child not caring about finishing or answering, or a child becoming overly tired etc while testing. And it's possible that perhaps the test used wasn't an innate ability IQ test (?) but perhaps either a learned ability test or more of an achievement test.

I hope you're able to find some answers for your ds - it sounds like you both need some help. As the parent of two 2e kids, I also know how easy it is to get used to the way things work within your family that you don't realize how different it is from what is typical. Having to put signs up as reminders everywhere at home isn't typical - neither are the behavior issues at school. It's so easy to pass off things that are signs of a challenge as the quirks of being gifted - but this sounds like more than quirky gifted asynchronicity. If there is more to it than that, you'll be glad you took the time to really understand what is going on.

The last thing I'll add - 2nd/3rd grade is a really common time in school for kids who are 2e and were holding things together to suddenly fall apart as the demands of school increase. While part of the issue may be a teacher who doesn't really understand your son, the teacher may also be providing you with some important clues into what's going on, so be sure to listen to what the teacher has to say even if you think she's way off base... we were in a similar situation with a teacher when our 2e ds was in 2nd grade and it was *horrible* - the teacher did not understand him or what was up with him, but neither did we as parents see that there was anything other than gifted perfectionist underchallenged kid in a classroom that wasn't a good fit. So we spent a lot of time discounting what the teacher had to say - and no, she didn't see what the real issue was, but in hindsight, she was absolutely spot-on correct that our ds was not functioning in his classroom and that there was an issue we needed to address. It took a neuropsych consult to figure it all out.

Best wishes,

polarbear

@Polar bear.. Thanks for the info! Also when I say pass.. he had to get a certain score to get into the gifted program, so maybe I used the term incorrectly. I didn't ask for my son to be in the program, his teacher did. When they were going over with me everything before the test, they warned me that Kindergartners don't have the life experiences required to take an IQ test, but that if he didn't score high they would test him again in first.. he scored 138- I don't know anything about the test.. that is only what I was told by the people that gave him the test. I never saw the test itself..