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    Originally Posted by mommajay
    Yes, she is a first grader TESTING on a 5th grade level in reading. As of the beginning of kindergarten, she tested on a 3rd grade level in math and hasn't been tested again, though of course she's moved up since then, so I'm being conservative when I say she's two grades above in math. Maybe it's three now.

    Grade equivalent scores are tricky. They don't indicate *mastery* of grade level material, only that the child got the same score as a fifth (or third or whatever) grader at the 50th percentile got. Students at the 50th percentile have *not* mastered grade level material. Mastery is generally indicated at about the 90th percentile or above.

    Just to get a general idea about the difference, a student scoring at the 5th grade level in reading has likely mastered 2nd grade reading and a student scoring at the 3rd grade level in math has likely mastered 1st grade math.

    So what this means is that grade equivalent scores should not be used to make placement decisions. School officials know this, and generally don't pay attention to parents who come in demanding acceleration based on them.

    That's not to say that acceleration isn't warranted, it just means that you want to be sure that the student will be capable of mastering the material presented in the higher grade. A combination of looking at scores from above level testing and observations about what the student is actually capable of doing are more accurate ways to determine appropriate placement.

    As the others suggested, finding out what the policy actually is would be a good first step. The next step would be getting your child assessed (if you haven't already) where one of the tests done is an achievement test two grades above her current grade level (or one grade above the level you think she should be placed). So if she's in 1st grade now, have her take the 3rd grade test for placement in 2nd grade subjects. Have it scored against 3rd grade norms. Then use the Iowa Acceleration Scale to see if it ends up indicating that she is a good candidate for acceleration. (The IAS is actually for whole grade acceleration, but it will also work for subject acceleration.) Perhaps data that go beyond grade equivalent scores will bolster your argument for subject acceleration in the eyes of the school officials.

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    Mine doesn't complain of boredom either - last term was the first time I have seen him sucking his thumb since infancy though and his tantrums are worse and more frequent now than when he was a preschooler.

    The age/grade equivalent thing is tricky though as it tends to indicate how well a child of that grade would do in the test your child did rather than how well your child would do in the advanced grade (when ds6 did his testing some of his grade equivalents were post high school). If your child has had out of level testing that is different though (and great because it doesn't seem to be that common).

    My sympathies with the principal being sent to another school (the initial post made me think it was your child who had been sent to another school - hence some of the confusion). I know how insanely annoying it can be to think you have everything sorted and then have something like that happen. Is there any chance you can find her and get advice?




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    Originally Posted by mommajay
    To everyone aside from indigo, thank you. I wouldn't have even thought to ask to see the actual policy. I've never had to go beyond the principal on an issue before, so this will be a first.

    Personal research including reviewing policy is often a first step not an escalation. Parents often find and review the policy on their own. Policies are often linked from the district website, and parents can usually browse and print them.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    To indigo, I didn't say anything inconsistent
    There was discussion of inconsistency on your last thread in which you first stated you did not wish your daughter to have whole grade acceleration, then later shared your daughter did not want acceleration. Similarly this post seemed to be at odds with information in your previous thread; possibly the details now shared explain and clarify the continuity.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    and I'm sorry you see it fit to point out that-- yes, dear Lord, I got divorced--
    actually you pointed that out or forum readers would not have known.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    or to insinuate that I'm lying.
    Unfortunately your story has been difficult to follow in part due to inconsistency, anger, and emotion.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    My daughter was in a different school district last year where they didn't know what to do and suggested she move to a school with a better gifted program if I didn't want to skip her. Before I made the move, I met with the principal of her current school. Terrific lady, and we had three separate meetings to discuss the situation, ending up deciding that subject accelerations would be the way to go. That principal then got moved to another school within the district unexpectedly at the end of the year, so she was no longer going to be my daughter's new principal this year.
    This is where having a paper trail may be helpful. The papers would usually include collected test scores, current policy/practice, and friendly e-mails to meeting participants which recap your meeting discussions. Have you considered contacting the former principal to see if she may be able to advocate for your daughter, on the strength of the rapport you built with her?

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    I thought that would be okay, and that I'd just need to explain to the interim principal what we had agreed on. Instead, he told me he had to ask the superintendent of educational services, who said it was against district policy to do subject accelerations.
    Providing this complete picture prior to asking for input in a public forum may be helpful.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    ... my personal life and how that affects people's desire to respond to me?
    I reflected on your statements to the public forum... inconsistency, offensive language, emotional, defensive. It is much easier to provide helpful information when the educational facts are clearly presented, and when there is not concern that an OP may lash out if they do not appreciate what is shared based on the limited information initially provided.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    finally finding our "forever home"

    Congratulations on your new home.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    in the only nearby district known for its gifted program
    Some may wonder how this district (or any district) has come to be known for its gifted program. For example: Was the school or district featured in a book? In newspaper coverage? Magazine articles? High School Rankings? What specific hallmarks or features is the gifted program known for? Are these strengths of the gifted program documented in policy and practice statements?

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    because I want her to have a good education
    That's what we all want and have found to various degrees. Because we know how difficult it is or can be, we volunteer our time on forums to help in the outreach to help others.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    And yes, she doesn't complain about being bored unless you ask her. What's your point?
    This was recapping discussion from your earlier thread. ... brings to mind an often repeated saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".' On the other hand, if you believe your daughter's lack of mentioning boredom indicates she may already be resigned and underachieving, then IQ tests may be of some help.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    ...judge me...

    Sorry, no. You sound stressed and I do not wish to add to your stress. In turn I ask you to consider that friends are not necessarily those who tell you what you'd like to hear, and people are not judging you if they speak very directly.

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    As others have mentioned, information can be very helpful. Perhaps independent testing isn't in the cards. Would the school district do IQ or achievement testing?

    Figuring out what your daughter needs can take some time. I believe we are all trying to share what we have learned and experienced, because the journey of parenting these kids is not a common one and there's a great deal of mythology far too many that educators (and the general population) believe to be facts about gifted children.

    Have you seen this article about advocacy? http://print.ditd.org/young_scholars/Guidebooks/Davidson_Guidebook_Advocating.pdf

    It's long but very good. Might be worth going through as time and your energy levels permit.

    Another crazy (yet perhaps useful) idea just occurred to me. You could try calling the principal you met with prior to moving your daughter to the current school. Although she is at a new school, she may be able to share some tips or ideas.

    Last edited by ConnectingDots; 10/11/13 06:51 PM.
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    Originally Posted by mommajay
    And yes, she doesn't complain about being bored unless you ask her. What's your point? Why are you looking for ways to stir the pot when everyone else here responded with thoughtfulness and decency?

    This is actually a valid question that, I believe, indigo asked to better understand how your daughter is responding to the pace of coursework psychologically. That is an age where perfectionism, imposter syndrome, and suppression of self-identity begin to surface in children whose needs aren't being met academically at school. Emotional well being is a key driver in the Iowa Acceleration Scale of gauging the appropriateness of acceleration/skipping.

    With all due respect, I can appreciate that you are under stress trying to create the best possible situation for your daughter. However, this community is built on respectful communication, and I would urge you to review the community standards if you intend to become a regular member of the forum. (See the tab labeled "conduct".)

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/faq.html


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    Regarding achievement tests: they just started doing the Woodcock Reading Mastery test with her today... is that a good indicator?

    Last year, the old school district called in a reading specialist who ran a battery of tests (maybe that was also the Woodcock-- I never asked) and just ended up stopping when they realized she had mastery on a 3rd grade level. They said it was pointless to test beyond that because they couldn't give her material in the beginning of kindergarten that was above 3rd grade-- they felt it would be too subject-inappropriate, so they taught her at guided reading level O. This year, she's independently reading on guided reading level U. I'm not sure what the Woodcock test is in relation to the benchmarking tests... they just sent home a paper asking my permission for them to do that test with her, so I said it was fine. I figure whatever tests they're willing to do are fine with me-- it can only help me show that she needs higher-level work.

    Her teacher is doing something terrific with her right now that I'm really psyched about: They're keeping a back-and-forth journal where they write to each other about books. I'm excited to have someone who cares enough to do that with her.

    For math, they gave her some kind of achievement test at the beginning of kindergarten and said she mastered 1st and 2nd grade (over 90%) and had a passing grade for 3rd grade (around 70%). Again, I don't know what kind of test it was... I never thought to ask. I knew she was way ahead in reading, but I honestly didn't know she was that far ahead in math, too, considering I never taught it to her beyond the basics. I still have no idea where she picked up so much of it. YouTube, I guess! I don't believe she's made significant strides in math in the last year, but again, I guess I won't know until they try testing her again.

    Blackcat, good question about a g/t coordinator. There's a parent group for g&t students, which I just joined, but I'm not aware of a staff member who coordinates for the district... I'll ask the president of that group. I know the district really is good for gifted students from 4th grade on, but there's nothing in place before that, and I sure don't want to have her wait that long.

    ConnectingTheDots and puffin, I have been thinking about contacting the former principal again... she was so good and so in-tune with us. I know she was upset to leave and she did reach out to me before the year started to make sure my daughter had a good teacher. I do still have her contact information. I think you're right... maybe I can just ask for her ideas on the current situation. The superintendent of education (or whatever his title is) hasn't responded back to me at all, though maybe he's waiting to see the Woodcock results. I know she didn't finish that test today... guess they're going to continue on Monday.

    Thank you also for the advocacy link (no, haven't read it yet) and the book recommendation. I've been winging it and haven't read much about the topic yet. I will.

    A good friend is also suggesting that I try for an IEP even though I read here that it's not applicable for gifted kids in NY. She seems to think that's not always true. I'll look into it.

    One other question: If the district holds firm and refuses to accelerate her in reading and math, do you think it's useful if I ask for her to be sent to the resource room or library during the phonics and math lessons? That was another thing a friend suggested and I've been mulling it over. It would still mean getting her out of class during the subjects that would bore her, but wouldn't achieve my goal of helping her meet kids who are closer to her level. I'm not sure if it's a "good enough" solution.


    -------------
    Indigo, this is my last response to you before I figure out the "ignore" button.

    Again, I have not said anything "inconsistent." Saying that I did not want her to skip a whole grade is not inconsistent with also saying that SHE does not want to skip the grade. It's just additional information.

    You were downright gross in suggesting that "some people" would not want to respond to me because of the "instability" in my personal life. What a mean thing to say about the other people on this board, who do not seem to be the types to want to shun me based on the idea that I'm a single mom. Why would you ever point that out as a cause for people not to respond?

    And again, the "inconsistency" you imagined was based on a single confusing pronoun-- simple enough to ask, "What did you mean by that?" instead of pointing out a laundry list of reasons why "some people" may not want to respond to me, despite the fact that many people just had-- quite politely and decently. I have no idea why you randomly decided to stir the pot. The only anger I've felt here is toward you, the person who suggested I was lying and then attacked my personal life for no discernible reason.

    I've never been outwardly shunned for being a single mom before. And yes, it upsets me to read such a low blow. There is no other way to take what you said. I'm not sure how you're taking the moral high ground here and pretending you weren't being judgmental. Saying that people may not respond because of the instability of my private life-- based solely on the fact that I said I was divorced and my child has moved around a lot-- is flat-out judgmental. My friends don't kick me down. They lift me up. That's part of what friendship is. I am lucky to have many wonderful friends.

    -----

    Again, thank you to everyone else. I'm sorry to have stepped in this as my intro to the board.


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    Aquinas, I don't believe I've been disrespectful. I strain to find how any of THIS, however, is respectful in any way:

    Originally Posted by indigo
    Faced with difficulty in discerning the facts, your offensive reply on another thread, your report of daughter not complaining of boredom unless you ask her, and the instability which you mentioned in your personal life...
    Originally Posted by mommajay
    This kid has been through SO much change and upheaval in her life... divorce, 6 moves in 6 years, people disappearing from our lives...
    (http://giftedissues.davidsongifted...._needed_profoundly_gifte.html#Post170668),
    some may be hesitant to answer.

    I also don't understand why the fact that my daughter isn't complaining about boredom unless asked would be an appropriate reason not to answer my request for advice. I understand that it's a valid question to ask someone; I just fail to see how it can be used as a reason not to respond. My daughter also doesn't complain when she has the flu. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the flu. It just means she's a wonderfully cheerful kid.

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    Originally Posted by mommajay
    I have not said anything "inconsistent."
    It has been difficult piecing the educational facts together given the information provided.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    shun me based on the idea that I'm a single mom.

    This is the first time you've mentioned being a single mom. Meanwhile I reflected on your statements in the public forum.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    The only anger I've felt here is toward you
    Your thread "Advice needed... profoundly gifted 1st grader" seemed fraught with anger directed at others. Today in this thread your anger seems focused on me, possibly stemming from your dislike of one sentence among all of the ideas and information shared in these threads.

    Originally Posted by mommajay
    I'm sorry to have stepped in this
    I understand you are experiencing stress, and do not wish to add to that.

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    Originally Posted by mommajay
    Regarding achievement tests: they just started doing the Woodcock Reading Mastery test with her today... is that a good indicator?

    Last year, the old school district called in a reading specialist who ran a battery of tests (maybe that was also the Woodcock-- I never asked) and just ended up stopping when they realized she had mastery on a 3rd grade level.
    ...

    For math, they gave her some kind of achievement test at the beginning of kindergarten and said she mastered 1st and 2nd grade (over 90%) and had a passing grade for 3rd grade (around 70%). Again, I don't know what kind of test it was... I never thought to ask.

    I am not familiar with the Woodcock Reading Mastery Test. From what I could find online, despite its name, it sounds as if it is just like any other achievement test in that it reports percentile rank and grade equivalents as compared to national norms.

    I think *you* need to have a good understanding of your daughter's achievement levels and the tests used to determine them before you can expect to get anywhere with the school officials. If you don't know what tests she took or what the scores she got mean, it's going to be pretty difficult to convince an administrator that she needs acceleration, especially when they obviously don't want to provide it.

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    I've read along here and your other thread, and I'm confused. School wants to do grade-level acceleration and you only want subject-level acceleration but you are unhappy with the amount of subject-level acceleration they offer because it's not enough?

    So this is not a case of a child needing acceleration and school not providing it, but rather a school testing the child and finding she is several grades above agemates and parent refusing the method in which they want to offer that acceleration.

    As mentioned by others, if you aren't familiar with the testing done (lots of good info at hoagiesgifted about many tests) or what the results mean, it will be nearly impossible to advocate for something different than school is proposing.

    One of the best tools to determine if a child needs acceleration is the Iowa Scale of Acceleration. You can order copies on Amazon. It is data driven and considers whether or not child wants acceleration. You can go through that scale to find research based evidence about which approach will best serve your child.

    However, I think (like many of the others have indicated) that you are picking a futile battle in trying to dictate to the school the method they should use in teaching your daughter at an appropriate level. There is a point where a child is too far out of level to be meaningfully accommodated in the age appropriate classroom.

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