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    #169738 - 10/01/13 01:34 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: Zen Scanner]
    puffin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/11/12
    Posts: 2035
    It is like any other medical intervention - there are risks. It is a matter of determining what the risks are of either medicating or not medicating and whether there are other options. But if you have a stressed lifestyle due to other kids and finances and are at the point where you are scared you will be fired because you have to go to the school so often and the doctor offers you a pill with the comment that lots of kids thank their parents for medicating them then ... We have the system we have and most people don't have an opt-out button they just do the best they can with what they have.


    Edited by puffin (10/01/13 01:35 PM)

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    #169739 - 10/01/13 01:38 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: indigo]
    HappilyMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 417
    Wow! Definitely lined up for a lawsuit when their test for "fakers" falsely accuses someone...

    I share the grave concerns that HK mentions. I fear the misdiagnoses especially among gifted boys that has been noted as well.

    My husband's family has rampant ADD among multiple generations. It's one big ADD-fest with any family gathering which drives my excessive planning personality to utter frustration regularly. I live a life where I am the only non-ADDer in my household. There is no ADD on my side and it has been quite a learning curve for me.

    When my child started exhibiting ADHD behaviors at 5, I had some idea of what I was in for. There were unfortunately also inappropriate expectations and environments at that time. However, ADD is highly heritable. We chose to go through an Amen Clinic to not only look at symptomology, family history, and computerized testing but also have scans of his brain both at concentration and at rest. There was no question that he showed classic ADHD patterns.

    So we knew answers. I wish all children could have brain scans rather than behavioral checklist based diagnosis. Unfortunately the scans are expensive and often not covered by insurers.

    One of the interesting thing about Amen's approach is that he is not anti-pharmaceutical but rather holds them as a last resort trying treatment through managing nutrient deficiencies first. I was surprised at how low my son's Iron and Vit D were in particular. We have had substantial improvement from supplementing and monitoring levels through blood testing. He is a different kid when his levels are right. We also have found food sensitivities which impact his ability to absorb the nutrients in his diet. He also uses different classes of drugs for different patterns (on scans) of ADD and has developed his methodology by looking at the RESULTS through taking future scans and seeing the change in brain activity.

    I hope that the NIMH recent support of taking a more scientific approach to diagnosis and management rather than the checklist DSM model will bring more RESULTs and diagnostic tools. Pearson is clearly stepping backward to the approach that has been used for the past hundred years rather than embracing the future for verifiable diagnostic standards.

    Blackcat-- Sorry your road has been a tough one with your daughters illness. I don't think those who have posted so far intend to criticize anyone's individual choices but rather look critically at a broken system that has left many parents with precious few options.



    Edited by HappilyMom (10/01/13 01:40 PM)
    Edit Reason: typo

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    #169745 - 10/01/13 02:30 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: indigo]
    blackcat Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/23/13
    Posts: 2154
    Thanks HappilyMom. My younger kid may also have ADHD (we're in the process of evaluating him), but if so, it's not obviously a huge handicap, so I would be much more cautious about medication. It is a broken system in terms of the diagnosis--all we had to do was fill out an inventory, get an inventory from the teacher, and we had a prescription for Concerta. When I asked about having DD go to a psychiatrist or neurologist for a diagnosis, I was told "that's not done around here--pediatricians handle it." Luckily in her case there is such a dramatic difference in functioning between meds and no meds, it is obvious she has ADHD and that she needs to be medicated. So I always get somewhat annoyed when I feel that someone is criticizing that. Her teacher last year was "anti-med" and since DD functions so well on her meds I always got the feeling the teacher thought we were medicating her just for fun and she doesn't really have a disorder. I needed feedback from her about the meds and whether they were helping and the communication was zero. I felt like sending her in without meds just to prove my point--yes, she does have ADHD, and Yes, she needs to be medicated or the consequences will be disastrous.

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    #169748 - 10/01/13 03:33 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: indigo]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1648
    Loc: Australia
    We live everyday with the judgement from teachers and family members as described by blackcat. And the fears of exactly what you are talking about HK. But honestly forget sitting at a desk for 30 mins, I consider the following to be reasonable expectations for a 7 yr old:

    Parent "Child,"
    Child looks up and makes eye contact
    Parent "Go get dressed, I suggest jeans and a long sleeve tshirt"
    Child either negotiates preferred clothing or says "Sure"
    Child comes back dressed after no more than 5-10 mins
    Parent "Great work, let's go..."

    My 7 year old is not capable of dressing herself without medication. How is she supposed to grow into a well adjusted and functional adult, let alone one that fulfills her HG+ potential, when she's unable to follow basic one step instructions, succeed and enjoy her success and the positive interactions with other people that result from success?

    And I also look at my DH and his family (the source of this particular issue in our family tree) and their "all things natural and therapeutic" approach to their complete executive dysfunction has not produced adults who don't need medication either. OMG. How does one assess whether a child grows into adulthood needing meds because they had those meds as a child or whether they were always going to need life long treatment? Oddly the women in my DHs family are an order of magnitude worse than the men, I wish my DH would actually take the medication that was prescribed only after he turned 40. But that pales in comparison to how much I wish his mother would acknowledge that she and all her sisters have a very real issue....

    And then there's the bipolar in the family.... Is my 7 yr old more at risk for developing bipolar if we DO medicate her and she continues to succeed and thrive (because the medication messes with her brain)? Or if we do not medicate and she spends her life failing to succeed in the most basic tasks, feeling angry, anxious and frustrated and on the receiving end of constant adult frustration and social failure (she's not easy to be around off medication)? She's VERY like the close family member with severe bipolar....

    I'm not a scientist, just a frightened parent and honestly I have no freaking idea. I can't even get her dressed off medication, I can't see how homeschooling would work of meds (she actually does better at school where, at least for now, she can copy all the other kids and the expectations are so low that she can still pass). But we hate medicating her, especially my DH.

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    #169751 - 10/01/13 04:18 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: indigo]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1648
    Loc: Australia
    Also, I get what you are saying that stimulants don't "only work for people who have ADHD", thats clearly just absurd, but on the flip side i do think what they do to people with and without ADHD is different. We have tried two children on Ritalin (because my eldest was incorrectly diagnosed with ADD before correctly being diagnosed with AS). Eldest child was maybe mildly different but it was certainly not clear enough to her, or us, that it was doing anything and we stopped pretty fast (2 weeks tops). Second child, who actually DOES have ADHD, she has the classic jaw dropping "OMG is this the same child?" response to medication, that medication worked for her was blindingly obvious right from the first half hr of the first tablet... Stimulants might make studying or staying awake easier for most folks but they don't radically change focus, bodily control, etc the way it does for my DD (who also can't reliably stay dry off medication, has radically different handwriting on and off medication, and various other things).

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    #169752 - 10/01/13 04:42 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    Particularly objectionable terminology used in the Pearson write-up:

    "malingered ADHD symptoms"

    "detect individuals attempting to fake attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)"

    "fraudulently obtain controlled substances"

    BARF. sick



    Not that I trust Pearson's motives here, because I don't. And BTW, don't they need FDA approval for this test? Sounds like a diagnostic test to me.

    But: to be fair, as Ultramarina pointed out, the problem isn't kids. It's college students. They really do fake having ADHD as a way to get stimulant prescriptions. They take the meds when they need to stay up all night studying. Think of this approach as adderalling my way to success. Alternatively, there are also students who fake the symptoms so that they can sell adderall/ritalin/various stimulants. If you don't believe me, look at these search results for adderall college students. If you've never heard of this problem, you're in for a bit of a surprise.

    And as HK has pointed out, these drugs aren't benign. For example, look at my basic search for adderall college students deaths. You'll find peer-reviewed papers among the results.



    Edited by Val (10/01/13 04:48 PM)
    Edit Reason: FDA approval

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    #169755 - 10/01/13 05:01 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: Val]
    Irena Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/12
    Posts: 1724
    Originally Posted By: Val
    [quote=HowlerKarma] to be fair, as Ultramarina pointed out, the problem isn't kids. It's college students. They really do fake having ADHD as a way to get stimulant prescriptions. They take the meds when they need to stay up all night studying. Think of this approach as adderalling my way to success. Alternatively, there are also students who fake the symptoms so that they can sell adderall/ritalin/various stimulants. If you don't believe me, look at these search results for adderall college students. If you've never heard of this problem, you're in for a bit of a surprise.

    And as HK has pointed out, these drugs aren't benign. For example, look at my basic search for adderall college students deaths. You'll find peer-reviewed papers among the results.



    This is true ... I was shocked to find it somewhat common in law school. I didn't delve much into it personally b/c I am afraid of putting drugs in my body and "messing with my mind" (lol - yes I will mess slightly with my mind using a good bottle of wine, though... ha ha! I do contradict myself!) However, from what I gathered one person had adhd (legit apparently) and was "dealing." Not sure if he faked or was really legit but he was dealing his meds for exam time. When I was first practicing I had two good friends at my firm - one had failed the bar ... when she was studying for it a second time the other friend said she would get her adhd drugs from her father who was doc to use during the bar exam. I was freaked out by that, honestly.

    Ooops just reading other posts now - I want to add that I do not think giving a person or child with true ADHD/ADD "messing" with their mind ... I only meant that in reference to me taking a drug for a disorder I don't have - that would be "messing"... Just do not want to belittle/hurt anyone who does have adhd/add in any way!


    Edited by Irena (10/02/13 03:17 AM)

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    #169757 - 10/01/13 05:10 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: indigo]
    ultramarina Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/10
    Posts: 3423
    Right--as Val says, the abuse and resale of the meds is nothing to sneeze at. The NYT has done several pieces on it, if anyone is looking for some info.

    I know of working people who use it when a project really HAS to get done.

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    #169758 - 10/01/13 05:14 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: HappilyMom]
    Irena Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/12
    Posts: 1724
    Originally Posted By: HappilyMom
    I wish all children could have brain scans rather than behavioral checklist based diagnosis. Unfortunately the scans are expensive and often not covered by insurers.


    Me too... I go back and forth with my DS - sometimes I think "yes" sometimes "no" it is hard to tell with his other issues causing similar symptoms. frown I'm sure my twin has undiagnosed/unmedicated ADHD and it has almost ruined much of his life... The entire family is in complete denial about it. frown


    Edited by Irena (10/01/13 05:15 PM)

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    #169759 - 10/01/13 05:18 PM Re: Pearson presentation TODAY: outing ADHD fakers [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Irena Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/12
    Posts: 1724
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    I think that everyone wishes that, Blackcat. smile

    My "situation" (as you put it) is that I got an advanced degree investigating the changes in midbrain neurochemistry initiated by the administration of a variety of drugs of abuse. So I do know that what I'm saying is factually correct with respect to the molecular neuroscience at work behind the pharmacology. I also have a basis for my opinion which is neither personal nor anecdotal.

    I'm not suggesting-- at all-- that it's "abusive" to medicate children who clearly require intervention. That's not my place, and I truly-- in spite of many parents' (understandable) defensiveness on the subject-- don't judge those parents who DO opt to medicate children so that they are functional while they are children. I agree that waiting it out isn't always an option. I find many of those situations to be heartbreaking-- but I definitely don't think that it's bad parenting or anything else but biological misfortune at work. I don't really judge parenting (in general) on the basis of child behaviors unless I've seen enough examples of poor management/coping to warrant concern.

    What I am saying is that there is not an "undo" on medicating with any of the drugs that treat ADHD/ADD. They really do cause permanent regulatory changes in the reward and learning centers in the brain. Does this set up kids who have been medicated to be dependent upon those same drugs as adults? I'd consider that (professionally) to be a distinct possibility, based on what I know.

    Maybe that's a price that parents feel okay paying, and maybe some of them don't KNOW that this is a thing they are choosing. Clinicians sure sell AD(H)D meds as harmless-- and they most certainly are not. THAT is my axe to grind on this subject. Nothing more and nothing less. I personally feel increasingly convinced that general practitioners probably ought not be prescribing drugs with this kind of addiction liability. But that's me.

    My larger question is still-- WHO SAYS that "normal" 8yo children are capable of sitting still for 30 minutes? WHO SAYS-- and how do they actually know this is true? Maybe some kids just need a radically different kind of childhood than seems within reach for most families now...

    Large motor breaks in primary school settings really have shifted dramatically over the past 40 years. Not all children can meet those expectations now, and I don't think that all of them have pathology as a reason why they can't. Why are so many more BOYS seemingly incapable of meeting "typical" expectations now? Used to be, it was girls who couldn't-- because they were not as aggressive by nature (or perhaps nurture) and schools were set up to favor that more aggressive/assertive, physical style. Times have changed.


    I definitely think that ADH(H)D is real, and I wish that it WERE clear during childhood which of them SHOULD (versus should not) get medication. Some kids can have behavior which is truly extreme. In those kids, yes-- it is WAY clear that they are not anywhere near the center of the distribution. I just think that it is a distribution-- so not so clear where to draw the line at "dysfunction."

    I actually agree with you on most points, blackcat. I'm sorry that your experiences with others judging your parenting have left you expecting judgment from others. My apologies if my post was unclear.

    I think that Pearson's article is heinous.


    Totally agree with all of your points here! Good post!

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