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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,157
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I wonder what happens on meds with kids who do not really have ADHD? Is it just a mild difference, and what exact changes in behavior are there? In my ADHD kid, you can tell immediately whether she's had her meds or not. She calms way down.
I accidentally took a Concerta or Adderall one day instead of my own med (wasn't paying attention to what I was doing) and didn't notice any difference in how I felt.
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Joined: Jun 2012
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CNN - when I say she can't dress herself I mean that I physically have to do it myself, usually after 10-15 minutes of trying to get her into doing it herself. And she's harder to dress than my 3 yr old because she doesn't pay enough attention to assist the process. She could dress herself perfectly at 2, when getting dressed was exciting, undies on the right way, zippers... It's not that she has motor or direction problems, it's attention. Some days were like that with my DS, and others involved repeated reminders that culminated in yelling, and resulted in he and his sister being late for school. Both kids had horrible late records, but this has now been resolved. I had several professionals tell me to medicate, and the school principal HOUNDED me for months and months. (Only my pediatrician was reluctant - she suspected that there were other things going on, and that DS was a bad candidate for stimulants because of his tics and the fact that he's underweight. She suggested Strattera in passing one day but agreed with me that we should wait). I just couldn't bring myself to do it, even though one of my friend's kids is currently thriving on Strattera and did really well on Biphenton (similar to Concerta - methylphenidate). It just didn't feel right for my son... I can't explain why, nor can I judge or analyze different decisions made by other parents (lol - I've been made to feel like a bad, neglectful mom for not medicating, so I'm a little defensive - isn't it funny the way, at the end of the day, we're all in the same boat - under the microscope  )
Last edited by CCN; 10/04/13 07:34 AM.
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Joined: Jun 2012
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I wonder what happens on meds with kids who do not really have ADHD? Is it just a mild difference, and what exact changes in behavior are there? In my ADHD kid, you can tell immediately whether she's had her meds or not. She calms way down.
I accidentally took a Concerta or Adderall one day instead of my own med (wasn't paying attention to what I was doing) and didn't notice any difference in how I felt. This is a really good question... I'd like a clear answer myself. According to a psychiatrist I saw, meds will improve focus for everyone. Yet our cousin's son has massive inattentive symptoms and tried ALL THREE classes (methylphenidate, amphetamines, and atomexatine) and NOTHING happened at all. I think it varies from person to person... it must.
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Though I agree with most of what you've written on this thread, I have to disagree here. I haven't always made the best decisions regarding my kids. I make mistakes. Everyone does. And I think that being a parent who loves her kids and is invested in them doesn't mean that all my decisions are above reproach.
I agree that there will always be critics and naysayers, which is why I try to find evidence to support my decisions rather than relying only on an inner voice (which is often emotional rather than rational). You're right in that we're all human and subject to making mistakes. I should have added that I also do massive amounts of research and consider many factors, so my decisions are not just based on emotions. I think the emotions come into play when I advocate for what I've decided.
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This alone would be enough to deter me... "This withdrawal effect is common. Adderall users often complain that they feel tired, "stupid," or depressed the day after. After running on overdrive, your body has to crash."
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Joined: May 2013
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Hmmm, DD has had the exact opposite. She has been on Adderall and Concerta before (not at the same time), and there have been times when we either forgot to give her her pill or I ran out, or we just decided to stop and try something else at a later date. The effects have been awful. The day of the missed drug she starts to get "happy" and also has lost focus. But it's the second day that's really bizarre. She becomes euphoric (mind you, this is on no meds) and acts like a drunk person. And extremely hyperactive. It's like she's "on something" even though this is what happens when we take her off. I remember taking her to a store and she was shrieking with glee and everyone was staring at us. She was overly happy 10 times over. This is the opposite of what Adderall abusers say happens when they stop.
I do also have to say that both Adderall and Concerta seemed to make DD moody when she was on them, which is why we stopped them. She is doing great on Daytrana, even though chemically, it's the same stuff as Concerta. Adderall was the worst for DD--she seemed slightly neurotic or psychotic on it.
I'm not sure what would happen if we stopped the Daytrana patch, but I'm guessing in 2 days she would be euphoric and drunk, just like what happened with Concerta and Adderall.
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I don't think having to physically dress one's 7yo is normal, FWIW.
Having to remind them a few times, yes.
I have known several kids who were blatantly, obviously ADHD. DD had one in her K class who took about 40% of the teacher's time every day (he desperately needed an aide, but the school was a charter and everyone was in denial). I have known several where I thought--okay, yeah. I have known a LOT where the parents were going--could it be? And the teachers were saying--we feel there MAY be an issue...and everyone was going around in circles. None of these people have put their kids on meds because I run in very anti-med circles, but they've all at least considered it. Category 3 is very concerning to me, and it has included not only my child but the children of about 30-40% of my circle of friends, which seems WAY off. Just--how can that be? Exactly, Ultramarina-- and most of the group that I've run into there has been offered meds. Okay, and when I say "offered" what I really mean is something more assertive. More like the "offer" that one sees in The Godfather. If you see what I mean. It does seem true that most parents now (and I include myself among them) have no really clear idea just WHAT reasonably normal expectations are for kids at various ages. We rely on what seems situationally intended in terms of relative demands, and think that this automatically means that children SHOULD be able to meet them-- rather than the other way around. We've lived in this stew of constant stimulation and distraction for so long that we probably don't appreciate how toxic that is for the development of executive skills in children. There IS evidence for it-- and anecdotally, most old-school elementary teachers have a one-sentence bit of advice for parents suspecting AD(H)D in young kids-- "No computer, no television, regular bedtime, add exercise; try it for a month." Video or other environmental inputs do have the ability to change cognition in developing brains. My mother taught for 40 years and claims that about 85% of the kids she EVER saw with (actual) EF problems was more or less cured by one of the following: a) better sleep/wake hygiene b) complete, cold-turkey elimination of screen time c) more regular, assertive, and consistent discipline at home. She also claimed that most of the kids that landed in her classroom (which was the preferred one for ADHD students in particular) did NOT have anything "wrong" with them other than their own idiosyncratic development. It broke her heart that some of those kids already thought of themselves as "bad" by second grade. The vast majority found my mom's classroom (which was quiet, but highly structured) a supportive and nurturing environment. Their parents thought she was a miracle worker. Having seen WHAT she did for those kids over a period of many, many years? She had "the touch" for little kids, true-- but she also didn't try to rigidly control them and never, ever expected MORE than a child was capable of delivering. She simply accepted that it wasn't the same thing for all 6-8yo children. She also shook her head at colleagues that didn't understand the value of games/large motor activities in the classroom, or who used shaming/berating or similar methods to try to "modify" kids who were, well-- children. Her basic hypothesis was that children are now subjected to more chaotic home lives than EVER before-- that we don't have a daily "routine" anymore because of modern life. I see her point. Most of us have a schedule that varies by WEEK-- which is fine for adults, mostly, but maybe that isn't very healthy for many children. Maybe they need to more slowly expand the temporal variation in their lives to have it make sense. Otherwise, perhaps it requires too much mental energy and keeps them anxious/highly attuned to surroundings and less able to keep reserves for EF tasks. It is true that the right "set point" there seems to be HUGE for some kids. It's almost like a unique OE. I also think that some parents who medicate ought to be aware of the risks for not only psychosis (which is a known risk for 2-5% of stimulant users-- period), but also for other affective disorders. Come to that, early bipolar CAN look like ADHD. It's a rare doctor that can accurately diagnose it in children, though-- and it's highly controversial AS a diagnosis in children. Stimulants (regardless of mechanism) in bipolar people can definitely act as "triggers" for mood swings, or can even initiate the disorder to begin with, or make it more severe. This is a well-known thing. It's why people with atypical depression tend to be medicated VERY cautiously indeed-- because some of them may worsen abruptly and then go into mania when withdrawn from the med.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/childrens-add-drugs-dont-work-long-term.htmlRitalin Gone Wrong By L. ALAN SROUFE New York Times January 28, 2012 And just as in the many dieters who have used and abandoned similar drugs to lose weight, the effects of stimulants on children with attention problems fade after prolonged use. Some experts have argued that children with A.D.D. wouldn’t develop such tolerance because their brains were somehow different. But in fact, the loss of appetite and sleeplessness in children first prescribed attention-deficit drugs do fade, and, as we now know, so do the effects on behavior. They apparently develop a tolerance to the drug, and thus its efficacy disappears. Many parents who take their children off the drugs find that behavior worsens, which most likely confirms their belief that the drugs work. But the behavior worsens because the children’s bodies have become adapted to the drug. Adults may have similar reactions if they suddenly cut back on coffee, or stop smoking.
TO date, no study has found any long-term benefit of attention-deficit medication on academic performance, peer relationships or behavior problems, the very things we would most want to improve. Until recently, most studies of these drugs had not been properly randomized, and some of them had other methodological flaws.
But in 2009, findings were published from a well-controlled study that had been going on for more than a decade, and the results were very clear. The study randomly assigned almost 600 children with attention problems to four treatment conditions. Some received medication alone, some cognitive-behavior therapy alone, some medication plus therapy, and some were in a community-care control group that received no systematic treatment. At first this study suggested that medication, or medication plus therapy, produced the best results. However, after three years, these effects had faded, and by eight years there was no evidence that medication produced any academic or behavioral benefits.
"To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/childrens-add-drugs-dont-work-long-term.htmlRitalin Gone Wrong By L. ALAN SROUFE New York Times January 28, 2012 And just as in the many dieters who have used and abandoned similar drugs to lose weight, the effects of stimulants on children with attention problems fade after prolonged use. Some experts have argued that children with A.D.D. wouldn’t develop such tolerance because their brains were somehow different. But in fact, the loss of appetite and sleeplessness in children first prescribed attention-deficit drugs do fade, and, as we now know, so do the effects on behavior. They apparently develop a tolerance to the drug, and thus its efficacy disappears. Many parents who take their children off the drugs find that behavior worsens, which most likely confirms their belief that the drugs work. But the behavior worsens because the children’s bodies have become adapted to the drug. Adults may have similar reactions if they suddenly cut back on coffee, or stop smoking.
TO date, no study has found any long-term benefit of attention-deficit medication on academic performance, peer relationships or behavior problems, the very things we would most want to improve. Until recently, most studies of these drugs had not been properly randomized, and some of them had other methodological flaws.
But in 2009, findings were published from a well-controlled study that had been going on for more than a decade, and the results were very clear. The study randomly assigned almost 600 children with attention problems to four treatment conditions. Some received medication alone, some cognitive-behavior therapy alone, some medication plus therapy, and some were in a community-care control group that received no systematic treatment. At first this study suggested that medication, or medication plus therapy, produced the best results. However, after three years, these effects had faded, and by eight years there was no evidence that medication produced any academic or behavioral benefits. I haven't read the study, just what is posted here, but maybe by 8 years, a lot of kids had outgrown the ADHD. So what happened to the kids that had seen an improvement on meds? Did they get worse after 3 years? I guess I don't understand the study.
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Stimulants (regardless of mechanism) in bipolar people can definitely act as "triggers" for mood swings, or can even initiate the disorder to begin with, or make it more severe. This is a well-known thing. It's why people with atypical depression tend to be medicated VERY cautiously indeed-- because some of them may worsen abruptly and then go into mania when withdrawn from the med. This mania is what happens to DD if we take her off. But not right away. It takes a couple days. Do you have any links or anything that would help explain this? She has never had any signs of depression, but she has always been "spirited", like a lot of gifted children.
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