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    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Hi, I promised my DS6 that he would learn some math this year even if it had to be outside of school, and it looks like it is going to have to be done as an "after-schooling" activity. His school simply won't accelerate, only differentiate, and we haven't even seen that yet, although we are still hopeful.

    Regardless, however, this would be the second year in a row in which he didn't learn any math other than what he taught himself if I don't sign him up for a course. Although he can and does teach himself a lot of math, I think he would benefit from a curriculum, and am considering using epgy math or cty accelerated math from grades 1-4.

    How much time each day do they have to spend using it to really benefit? He doesn't get home until almost 4PM, and then only has a little free time, as he always has 30-45 minutes of homework. He has activities several days a week, so some days he probably has less than an hour of free time (not counting the time after dinner, which is a no homework time.) He loves math, but I don't think he will want to spend all of his free time doing it.

    Would it be worth it if he only spends 15 minutes a day on it? I realize it is self-paced.

    Would we better off trying to get him to use dreambox or k5learning? He doesn't really like IXL, as he doesn't like timed drills and doesn't just want to practice. He wants to LEARN more math, not just practice.

    We are looking into different schooling options for next year, and it might be useful to have scores from CTY or EPGY. Even if we don't change schools, it still might be helpful.

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

    Last edited by momoftwins; 09/27/13 12:19 PM.
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    I'm curious, why do you think he would benefit from a curriculum when he can and does teach himself a lot of math?

    For my DS7, doing math and learning new math at home on his own terms is play. I worry that if I put any kind of formalization around it, I would break something that is pretty cool as is.

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    I think he would benefit from a curriculum because he skips a lot of topics. For example, last year he was learning multiplication, and memorized a lot of the multiplication tables, but not all of them because he became interested in square roots. Same thing with division. And he found multiple digit addition and subtraction not to be very interesting, so I don't think he has mastered it completely (but he does.) He needs to master the basics, all of them, or his school is going to jump on the one skill he doesn't have as "proof" he doesn't need acceleration (even if he learns it the first time it is explained.)

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    Thanks, I hadn't thought down that path. DS will do things like say he knows algebra after watching a couple of videos and solving a couple of simple linear equations.

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    My ds is older, but has done a few CTY courses and did a bit of after-schooling in math in elementary (not CTY or EPGY). Then, and now, we pick courses that are self-paced, and he usually *doesn't* work on them a little bit every day, but instead chooses to work in chunks on weekends or vacation or days when he has a lot of free time. My ds enjoys the courses, so it's not something we've pushed him to do - it's been his idea. He likes having a course and curriculum - I think he enjoys the learning and also feels like he's moving toward a goal at the same time.

    I like that CTY (and EPGY etc) give you a grade and a transcript - whether or not your child can ultimately get credit for it, it at least gives you data to use when advocating for placement.

    polarbear

    ps - the other benefit of doing an organized class through something like CTY is that you have a curriculum that you can point to and compare to your school district and state curriculum when questions of gaps/what was covered etc comes up. BTW, I'm not trying to advertise CTY, just mentioned it because that's the talent search that is recognized in our area and that we've used.

    Last edited by polarbear; 09/27/13 12:44 PM.
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    We have done EPGY and I think it worked well for DD through the 6th grade math class but she just finished most of the algebra course and we're going to 're-do' algebra with the Art of Problem Solving book and Alcumus; we already have one of their books and DD is actually excited about reading it (Intro to counting and number theory, I think) and so I'm optimistic that their Intro to Algebra book will rekindle her interest in math--which was the reason we started this in the first place. I sat with her during all the EPGY sessions and although they explained the mechanics okay, they didn't really connect it with larger ideas and nifty problems the way AoPS seems to. But that only seemed to matter for her for algebra. One advantage of EPGY is that you pay by the quarter (three-month period) and if the kid gets through a course they can start the next one right away with a nominal course fee.

    Do keep in mind though that if a transcript is important, EPGY changed their policy on that earlier this year and they give you a letter or something, not an official transcript. Which was irritating to me because that's one of the reasons we had picked it in the first place. But on the other hand, it might not matter that much because I am thinking that any school would want a kid to take a test/ their test anyway if they were going to change placement because of outside courses. But we haven't come to that bridge yet so I don't know.

    The courses we've taken with EPGY have a default session of 20 minutes that you could increase on request; we also have afterschool stuff and negotiated with DD that she would do EPGY on days when she didn't have something else after school. Which I'm not sure was a great idea because it ended up being about 3 days a week, but on the other hand I am very aware of not wanting to push and turn her off her natural interest in math. So IMO depending on the kid and the program, 15 minutes a day could be great--but I guess you might have to see how it goes. With DD it's quite odd--she really pushed to be able to learn more math, but then is often reluctant to actually sit and do the work, so I'm hoping she will have a better attitude about AoPS and Alcumus. She was all fired up about Alcumus at first--they have really given it some thought and give the kids points and challenges and quests--very cool. Whereas EPGY is more like, you get a lecture and then you do some problems and if you get them right you move on--but the experience is very reminiscent of the math classes I had as a kid (30+ years ago)--it sometimes seems like more of a slog than something that might actually be fun.

    In our area there is a math circle at one of the universities--it used to be every week but is now just once a month. It's very nice of the people to put it on (for free!), but it would be great if there was some kind of mathletics type stuff around and I haven't been able to find anything local or online. Again, more for older kids, but something to keep in mind.

    Good luck!

    Last edited by Dbat; 09/27/13 01:26 PM.
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    CTY is less forgiving that EPGY for "self-pacing". My kids have found it harder to keep up with the pace of CTY when they can only spend 20-30 minutes a day (or every other day). EPGY suggests 20 minutes a day for that age which worked well for us (CTY was more like an hour). My son has loved EPGY and it has been a perfect "extra" for him. That said, EPGY is rather drill like and practicing--harder and more interactive than IXL, but same vein. Dreambox is more video game-like, but I am not as convinced my kids learned a whole lot from it (they had to do it in school). Hope that helps!

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    I don't have any answers on EPGY or CTY. I am surprised that your DS6 has 30-45 min of homework every night! What grade is he in? My DD6 has about 5 minutes a night. Less if it is a math page and more if she whines for a while first about writing sentences. It seems like you wouldn't want to do much more formal curriculum on top of that on a daily basis. That being said, my DD6 is doing dreambox. She absolutely loves it. Some days I have to drag her off of it or she would stay for hours if she could. She doesn't do it every day though as she is too busy playing to think about it. She probably does it once or twice a week and she is still moving quickly through it with that frequency. My DD didn't have a huge love of math before we started dreambox and I am not sure she would have tolerated a curriculum that was less fun when we started although she might now that she realizes she is good at math and it can be fun. We started for pretty much the same reason...trying to fill up the holes since she had scattered skills all the way to 3 or 4th grade but too many holes to consider advancement.

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    The 30-45 minutes of homework comes about partially because of my DS's procrastination. It should take less than 30 minutes, but in reality it takes longer. It is 15 minutes of assigned reading and discussing the 4 books he brings home (usually takes 20 - 25 minutes in reality because of interruptions and how long it takes him to actually start) and then a 2 sided worksheet (takes longer than expected as well). It usually takes more than 30 minutes, though, in reality, before all of the homework is completed. Not because it is difficult, but because it is hard to get him to focus on it as it is so uninteresting/boring. I think the teachers think it should take about 20 - 25 minutes. (He is in first grade.)

    Last edited by momoftwins; 09/27/13 05:09 PM.
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    EPGY Open Enrollment recommends three twenty-minute sessions a week. DD prefers the 60 minute setting and averages 30-40 minutes a session. She does it when she has time as we just use it to supplement. Once she finishes algebra there, we'll move onto Art of Problem Solving for more depth. Dbat's assessment is right on. EPGY is great for laying out the basic skills through pre-algebra, but you'll want more depth. EPGY lays out content and provides exercises for a solid grounding in the basics while AoPS offers interesting problems.

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