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DD4 started 4-full day (830-3) preschool two weeks ago. She is very happy to be at school, loves getting up in the morning to get ready for school, doesn't want to be picked up and declared that she wants to go all 5-days. All good, right? Well, her behavior at home has turned 180F. She says home is boring and she doesn't like being at home. She is rebellious, argumentative, and I cannot get her to do anything. She also keeps repeating a certain action till it drives everyone crazy. She used to to this before as well, like driving her toon car in the family room back and forth forever. This usually meant she was extremely bored and I have successfully diverted her to challenging assignments, that she would then gladly do. Not any more. Nothing I say or do makes any difference and she literally spends entire evening doing one thing over and over, like pushing the button on her annoying singing teapot, jumping up and down the couch, etc. I have lost my sweet-tempered child and need help. Is this temporary while she adjusts to her new school? Is she really bored at home? Is she mad at me for sending her to school full day? Thanks for any words of advice you can give me in trying to figure this new behavior out.

That sounds very frustrating! My thought is that your daughter has been through several big transitions in recent months. It's been quite a lot for you and certainly for her. What you describe is how my child has responded to "stress" in his life at ages 5 and 6.

My gut is that she is having trouble unwinding from the intensity of her full day experience. I've seen that repetitive behavior from my child when he is "burned out" and trying to "numb out" ... plus it can be fun to annoy your mother for some negative attention when you have missed her from being away from home all day.

We had success with doing therapeutic things like roll him in a blanket and press on him (pretend he's a hot dog or taco or burrito and put on different toppings) and swinging. There are great activities like those in the book The Out of Sync Child Has Fun.

Go with your gut of course. You will know what rings true about what you are seeing and what doesn't. My child does have sensory issues but the calming I saw with the activities I mentioned above was downright shocking. Hope you find answers (and peace at home) soon.

Thanks, Happilymom for your suggestion. While dd has not been officially tested for spd, I have always wondered if she might have it due to various reasons. Today she stayed home and while had a rough start ( took 2 hours to get her to brush and eat breakfast), she was back to her happy self the rest of the day. She does seem genuinely happy at school and more than one teacher commented on how she is always skipping, singing, and happy. She has made some friends and loves to,spend time with them. It is a very play based school and they spend a lot of their time outdoors reading stories, playing, hunting for acorns, etc. But I can see how spending 6.5 hours away from home might stress her out, even though she might not even realize it.

If she has sensory issues, a new environment like that can really be overwhelming with new information. Liking it and getting "spent" processing all of it are 2 different things. New places and people really exhaust my son.... Even switching to homeschool, which he heavily advocated for, hit this point for us. After the first day I saw that letting him chose was a problem because he overdid it and was a mess by late afternoon. He was just so excited to get to learn and did too much.

I don't know your situation re other kids etc but have you tried a transition routine. It does sound like she is having trouble calming down after a very busy and probably stressful (not necessarily in a bad way) day.

Sorry I am back with this problem. Puffin, she is an only child and I tried a transition routine but things are not going so well. Some of the behavior is spilling into weekends and days that I stay at home with her. We even tried keeping her home 2 of the school days last week. No help! She has turned into a defiant little imp. She has started to throw things and create unnecessary mess, not in a mean way but just to push our buttons. eg, she painted a big section of the family room wall with her blue glitter paint, she tears and throws tiny pieces of paper everywhere, she wrote on the window shade, she uses apples as tennis balls, etc, etc. She has this impish smile on her face while she is doing all this. I have tried everything from gentle persuasion, to distraction to yelling in frustration. She has ended up in tears on a couple of occasions (which hurts me because this kid hardly cries-she has a very sunshiny personality). But more often than not, she just ignores me and my DH completely and keeps on doing her thing. Is this just a normal 4 yo behavior that is best to ignore? DH is all for more discipline but I would really like to understand the root cause of the problem and address that. Any help is much appreciated!

Is it possible for her to go 1/2 day? If so I would seriously consider that. A full day for 4 yr. olds is long and very stimulating. I really like the book Transforming the difficult child for approaches to deal with her challenging behaviors. The book Hold on to Your Kids is great as well--even though it is aimed at parents of older kids, I think the influence of peers is clear even at a pre-school level. I really believe that the desire of kids to behave or not is strongly tied to the strength of the attachment to parents. (ruling out SPD or similar) In the meantime I think as few rules as possible that you enforce consistently is the key. (I realize that is easy to say...) but I wouldn't make a rule unless you are motivated enough to follow through on enforcing it.

You need to have clear rules and consequences for misbehavior in the home. Sit down with her and make up a list.

Example:

1) No hitting
2) No yelling
3) No throwing things inside

etc, etc.

Then, the consequences - X no of minutes of timeout, or whatever you guys do in your home. With our kids they have a star chart that earns them allowance money, but they are older.

I agree with epoh--at least that worked wonders for us when DD was younger. It was important to have both the rules and consequences be clear in advance, to give one reminder (as a chance for the kid to make the correct choice) and then to promptly follow through if the behavior doesn't stop. For awhile we gave a 'count' for bad behavior and if our DD got up to three counts, no dessert (bad, I know, but that was the only thing that worked with her).

Another technique is that if the kid is not using a toy/material properly, it becomes 'unavailable' for awhile (that is, you take it away); if they are otherwise behaving, you can have them try it again, but if they go back to the inappropriate use, it is 'unavailable' for longer (like until tomorrow, or until next week). Positive reinforcement can sound like "I will know you are ready to use the paint when you keep it on the paper." Hang in there; your DD sounds very persistent, but hopefully you will be able to make some progress. Good luck!

For that behavior, my kids at 4 would have lost any number of privileges and know how shocked and disappointed I was in their behavior.

Drawing on the wall? Well first of all, I hope you had her clean up the mess? Then, take away what she used to create the mess since she abused the privilege. While helping clean, I would have expressed my extreme disappointment and surprise that a great kid like her would think it was OK to do something like that. I would ask her what made her think that would be OK, all the while being shocked and disappointed. I would ask her what she thinks the consequence for such vandalism should be.

Apples as tennis balls? Again, she cleans up the mess. On that one, I think I would have had her spend some time on her bed thinking of why that was a bad idea. (Although I think that sounds fun and my boys probably wouldn't get in trouble for that as long as they were outside and using apples that had fallen from the tree.)

I think if you have to ask her more than once to stop an annoying behavior, she gets a consequence like going to her room.

I agree with reiterating your behavior rules. We didn't use a star chart, but did a marble jar for acts of kindness and good behavior. My 7 yo still loves the marble jar. Basically, she gets a marble for doing something nice, or for a good piano practice without complaining. She doesn't get a marble every day now because it's more of a lark than a behavior tool now, but we used it regularly at age 4. Once the jar is filled up she gets a treat (trip to the craft store or some other thing she's been wanting).

Have you ever read 1-2-3 Magic? It think it would work really well in your situation. I don't think your daughter sounds naughty-- it sounds like she's testing her boundaries. Just be firm and this will be a passing phase.

Sympathy:)

You and your husband each have a good point.

He wants to discipline the poor behavior. People have posted good ideas about this, e.g. resources and discipline. Throwing apples and drawing on the walls and shades sound like things she should know she shouldn't do! Like syoblrig, I am a big fan of a kid cleaning up their own messes...

Your point is also important. You said that you want to find out if something is causing her behavior. While this may be a passing phase that can be solved through discipline alone, there may be other reasons for the poor behavior.

From what you wrote, it sounds like she would repeat behaviors before preschool (e.g. driving the car around the living room) but that the behavior has worsened since starting preschool, and that you had considered SPD.

Other posters have recommended various things that have helped them, but I would look for a diagnosis/cause before knowing the best way to handle the situation. A PG kid in a preschool can feel totally lonely and overwhelmed. A kid with a vision problem, a hearing problem or a sensory processing problem can find preschool overwhelming. Sometimes, the preschool experience can push a child who is coping with something over the edge and it's an opportunity for the parent to learn more about why some things are so hard for the kid.

Feedback is: you're so smart to ask about this, so smart to think about how to work with your spouse, and right that this sounds like something you want to figure out.

While you are exploring what's going on and selecting ways to discipline, may I also encourage some fun:) When my child was this age, a trip to get a snack or dig in the sand or visit a favorite place always brought out the best of both of us! No mess to clean up, someone feeds you a snack, you are giving you kid attention for GOOD behavior, and you both feel wonder and interest in your activity. Just a thought that focusing on some good moments together might be a relief and a pleasure.

Hi,

Can you observe at her school to make sure she truly is thriving there? Sometimes the teachers are so good at being enthusiastic and saying what fun it all is that kids will feel it must be, despite it being a poor fit in some way for them.

Is it possible it's more than just wound up from school?

My DS6 was not a typical toddler. He was really pretty well behaved then. If we told him not to do X, well he wouldn't do it. At 2 I would take away a crayon if he used it other than on paper, and so he just never did again. We patted ourselves on our backs thinking we were great parents. He did cry a lot at 3 when disappointed about things, time being up or not getting to go back to X vacation spot the next day. It was not until 4 and 5 that he went through a big phase of testing limits and testing out acting angry, acting defiant etc. In retrospect a lot of it was self exploratory. It was a difficult time for our whole family and I think I made it worse initially by not being very consistent in how I dealt with it. Sometimes I'd be understanding and let him create a disaster and other times I'd lose patience.

Grinity on here I think it was, suggested the Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook. Which uses something called the nurtured heart approach (which one can google). This was really helpful for us. A lot of other books seemed like more quick fixes or vague or too "because I said so".

We didn't know where to start so started with the tactic of complimenting the little stuff, catching DS being good, "Thanks for closing the door". He would sometimes then open the door again on purpose, staring at us with a look of "well there, take that", just to see whether we'd take the bait. It was a real challenge for us. But it helped us realize how many rules he did follow unconsciously and that mostly he tried pretty hard.

And then eventually when DH and I were convinced that alone wasn't enough, which took a couple months, we wrote up a list of house rules that was very specific. And instituted a uniform system of timeout consequence for not following the rules that was as impartial and as emotion free as we could manage. I don't know if it was that or if it was just time passing and DS developing but he's has maybe needed a timeout a month lately. It was a long year getting there though.

When he is over tired, when he is sick, when it's the end of the week at school he is much more like the old difficult child than the new improved version.

That year brought DH and I closer together as parents as any time we felt like we were about to lose patience we would grab the other's hand and squeeze for support. Lots of handholding.

Honestly she sounds a lot like my 4 year old although mine has a sibling to distract him. If you send her to her room does she hurl things round? Does she break things in time out? I wish I knew the answer although that explosive child sounds good.

deacongirl, I work part-time but in order to make the $$ work, the full-day option was the only one that made sense. However, my DH and I are thinking of changing our schedules a little bit so I work 3 full days and stay home with her 2 days. This will cutback her time at school from 4 to 3 full days (6.5 hours long). I am not a good disciplinarian so I find it hard to make and enforce rules. I was a pretty wild kid myself and gave my parents a lot of grief through my teenage years but now I am a responsible, caring, sensible adult (at least I think so). I can see a lot of that in my kid, she is definitely protesting authority. DH and I came to an agreement that when he uses a strict authoritarian approach, I would not interfere and weaken his stand. I have agreed to it and as long as my child is not crying uncontrollably or hurting herself, I am going to let him deal with it in his way. Meanwhile, I will work with her in my own style. I had a really good conversation with her yesterday night that I will post here soon.

epoh, Dbat and syoblrig, I am not good at punishing bad behavior except letting her know how disappointed I am and how I know she did not mean to do that and would not repeat that. However, based on your advice, I started a coin jar for her yesterday. She already has a piggy bank but I setup a new jar and we are calling it the goodie jar. Everytime, she listens to us, she gets a quarter in that jar. When she disobeys, a quarter gets taken away from her. At the end of the month, if she has at least $20, she can buy any one of her favorite items. If it is less than $20, everything gets taken away. She helped come up with this system and at least it had a real positive impact yesterday evening. Hopefully, this will last.

I would again suggest the Transforming the Difficult Child book. I can't see authoritarianism working well for a kid like this. I would say that given what you say it is even more important to have few rules, and to perhaps focus on one behavior at a time so it isn't as hard to be consistent. But I hope there is some way you and your dh can find some more common ground. It can be hard on everyone when parents are not on the same page.

laurel, thank you so much for your post. You seem to think the same way I do. DD is a delightful child, always a little mischievous but never difficult until now.I know she needs to know very clearly what is wrong and what is right. But at the same time, she needs help if she is having problems controlling her impulses. Also, I think she is needing more attention from me now that she has started preschool. She complained yesterday about how her teacher sometimes doesn't listen to her. She is a good teacher but I can understand how she might not pay as close attention to everything dd has to say when she has other kids to attend to. I do a lot of fun stuff with her and when we are doing that, she is her delightful self again.

hee - we have a whole series of jars, Lovemydd! ours work the other way (it's a fine, rather than a reward) but they've been great. we have the Little Jar of Hate, the Little Jar of Screams and recently, the Little Jar of Profanity (though that one is only affecting DH so far!) and after over a year of implementation, there's only about $0.65 in each of the others... they've really, really worked.

we also have one called the Big Jar of Solutions where i record every time DD comes up with an idea vs. makes a complaint, and we read those out on New Year's Eve - it's fun!

best of luck with everything - i'm so pleased to hear you and your DD had a positive chat last night... i hope things improve for you - this is such a tough one.

Polly, her teacher has an open door policy so I have had a couple of opportunities to observe her in class. She really is having fun. She participates in class discussions, has friends that really like her, terrific teachers that for most part pay attention to her, etc. The work they do in math is very easy for her (per DD) but she loves everything else, especially science, art and drama. I have also noticed that when she is hungry or tired, her behavior worsens so I am trying to address that. I did google the nurtured hearts approach and I think that would work for us. I am planning to look into it more this weekend. Thanks again for your wonderful advice.

Love the idea jar, doubtfulguest. Totally going to steal that one. If I paid her a quarter for every idea, she would be a millionaire
So here is the chat I had with her yesterday night:
Me: DD, ever since you started school,you seem to be not as calm as before at home. What is going on? Can I help you with something?
DD: Well, mom, there are two problems. One problem is that some kids like me cannot sit still, they get very bored when they are just sitting. I don't like sitting in one place at home.
Me: What can we do to help you with that?
DD: Well, you can play with me and we can do things together.
Me: Easy enough! We can do more of that. What is the second problem?
DD: I love school. I really do. But when I am there all day, I start to miss you. If you send me for just half days, that would be okay. (Long pause). Actually, that won't work because I have art and drama in the afternoon and I do like those classes. Maybe I can go tues, wed, and thurs full day and stay at home with you on mon and fri and go to home school. But let us not do this plan this week because I have class trip on friday and I don't want to miss that.
Me: okay, I like the 3 full day idea. I will talk to your dad about this and then all three of us can discuss and come up with a good solution that works for everyone.
DD: Thanks mom. I love you.

PS. I felt so good and so teary eyed at the same time. This is my kid. Never one to throw tantrums. Always able to use words and logic to address problems. I felt like I was so wound up with her sudden change in behavior, I had forgotten how to reach her. So glad we did this.

ha - your DD WOULD be a millionaire with that kind of solution-making! (that's why i don't pay DD for anything - she would totally game the system...)

that is an amazing conversation - so glad you're sounding so hopeful and renewed!

Sweet girl. It is great she can articulate what is going on! Maybe stopping at the park on the way home on the days she goes to school so she can really run around would help her settle down at home. I think for some kids (my dd6 is like this) we cannot even imagine how much effort it takes for them to comply with classroom expectations and they can only hold it together so long. Hope the new plan is helpful!

Lovemydd, that sounds like a workable set of solutions. I like that your daughter already had ideas to recommend. She advocated well for herself!

That is a beautiful conversation, Lovemydd! Congratulations! She gave really productive and realistic suggestions. She is remarkably self-aware and organized in her planning.

Always a pleasure to work WITH your child, rather than plot to deal with them, lol.

You said she is having trouble controlling her impulses. I think Deacongirl makes a good point when she says how tiring it can be to control one's impulses all day at preschool! It sounds like she actually does have great skills at school, but it may be very tiring!

From another formerly wild child: some discipline and clear boundaries can actually be a relief. It is also great when the parents are on the same page, both for the kid but also for the parents' relationship. Good luck finding approaches that work for the whole family. The first (or only) kid gets to help parents clarify all this!

So happy for you that you have some ideas about your schedule and that you have such a great way to communicate with your kid!