Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Testing child with ADHD

My 7-year-old DD was tested for the gifted cluster last year in second grade using the CogAt. There was a very large gap between her verbal score and the quantitative and non-verbal scores. It listed her as having an ability profile 7-E. I looked this up on the website and it indicates a child with a possible learning disability because of huge gaps between scores. I also noticed that she finished the verbal section (and hence got a score of 130) but the other two sections she didn't come close to finishing. On the quantitative section she only answered half the questions! There is no way to get a high score if you leave half of the test blank.
DD has ADHD-combined type and has a history of being very unfocused and slow in class. Plus, if she comes to a question she doesn't know she will fixate on it until she understands it. Other kids might come to a question they don't know and guess and move on quickly. That is not DD. She did not understand the CogAt is tightly timed and she only had about 30 sec. to answer each question. Even if she did understand that, she's not mature enough to manage her time that way.

DD did qualify for the gifted cluster based on her 130 verbal plus her high achievement score in math (98th percentile). But she is not high enough to qualify for GATE which starts next year in 4th grade (special school for highly gifted). She is going to have to be re-tested. I strongly oppose her taking the CogAT again and talked to the school psych about her ADHD and not finishing the test, and she said she would give her the Weschler non-verbal ability test. I looked this up and these are the subtests in the full battery:

Matrices
Object Assembly
Coding
Recognition
Spatial Span
Picture Arrangement

It looks like some of these tests are tests of processing speed and working memory, correct? I'm guessing that DD would not do well on these due to her ADHD? Plus kids can qualify for GATE based on getting a high score on any one of the 3 subtests on the CogAT (verbal, non-verbal, OR quantitative), and this test only tests non-verbal ability. What if DD's verbal ability (or quantitative) went up just a bit and she could qualify based on that, but she's not even being tested for it again? So other kids have 3 possible ways to qualify and DD will only have 1 (a high non-verbal score)?
Anyone have any suggestions as to how i should proceed with this and what the school psych wants to do? I don't know if she's just trying to be cheap, or save time, or ????
I asked her if DD could take the WISC IV and if she needs a full scale score and there are gaps because of processing speed/working memory, just compute the GAI, and she said "no, the WISC wouldn't be appropriate because there are timed sections." But it looks like that is the case with the Weschler non-verbal ability test as well! I don't get it!
If I get outside testing, how much would that cost and how do I find someone?

Hi, Blackcat,

Oh boy. I don't think my ds did well on the Cogat. Not 99%+ anyway, and he's a recent DYS. The Cogat can miss a lot of giftedness and is a blunt instrument, but is often used because the WISC tests are very expensive. In some ways, you're describing my ds, though so far it seems to be perfectionism that holds him back from performing quickly.

I can't imagine why the pysch wants to only give a portion of the test. Perhaps it's a cost issue?

Our school administered it, so I don't know the cost, but it can be quite expensive or so I've read here.

Could she be talking about a different test such as the SB5?

For GATE they have to score in the 98th-99th percentile on BOTH reading and math achievement tests (similar to MAP) plus be in the 98th+ percentile on any one of the CogAt sections. DD was in the 97th percentile for verbal. If she had just answered 1-2 more questions correctly she would have been in the 98th and would have been fine for GATE. I believe her reading and math achievement scores are both now 98th+ percentile. It's just that stupid CogAt and being off by 1 percentile! Last spring I was going back and forth w/ school psych via email and she clearly said "weshchler non-verbal ability test" adding that it's very reliable. But how can it be very reliable in someone with ADHD if it has processing speed/working memory components?! I can't see DD doing well with coding, for instance. She does not do anything quickly if it involves handwriting. And the spatial span will depend entirely on how focused and well medicated she is at that moment. I almost feel like just risking it with the CogAt again and hoping that she can do just a little bit better on the verbal section. Ugh! I think DD's real strength is in non-verbal, though. She is the queen of puzzles/logic games. My DS who is 1 year younger took the WISC IV as part of a neuropsych eval (after a brain injury) recently and scored a 141 on the non verbal section, but I believe DD to actually be brighter than him.

This is when I wish there was some sort of compilation that shows how ineffective the Cogat is for these kinds of things, but I think there is only anecdotal evidence. And that is a high cutoff. So my ds would have been kept out of the GATE school and yet is a Davidson Young Scholar. Ridiculous.

Maybe you can convince them to consider other criteria.

They can also get a composite score of 139 on the CogAt in lieu of 98-99th percentile in math and reading, but I figured that's out of the question with DD's speed issues. I wonder how many kids get a composite score that high or what percentile that is? I feel like they must be missing so many kids who are truly gifted but don't do well on the CogAt for whatever reason.
We don't even have a district gifted coordinator anymore. I have no idea who I would even discuss these issues with who would have a clue what I'm talking about. Obviously the school pscyh doesn't get it. So frustrated.

That reminds me of DD's friend--she also did not do well on the CogAT (composite score 121 I think). She could do long division in first grade but scored in around the 75th percentile on the quantitative CogAT because she also did not finish. The questions she did answer were all correct. The father told her to be careful and check her work which is what I told DD (not knowing it was timed). Ridiculous!

ds's teacher last year told us and the group that had gathered to discuss the Iowa Acceleration Scale, that ds was not the fastest in the class at math, nor was he the slowest, but he was always right.

On his computation part of the Iowa Skills Test (different thing) he didn't finish (left almost half the questions undone) but what he did do was 100% accurate.

Slow does not mean not gifted.

blackcat, does your dd have 504 testing accommodations for her ADHD? I am not a fan of the CogAT - my EG ds is one of the kids who tests well on everything under the sun and tested nowhere near as highly on the CogAT thanks to his outside-the-box over-thinking of the questions on the CogAT.

Anyway, one thing we were able to do for our ds was to get him extended time on the CogAT, oral response and tester read the questions to him. He had the extended time and oral response accommodation because he was already receiving those accommodations routinely in the classroom and because they were specified on his IEP (if he hadn't had an IEP he would have had the same list of accommodations provided via a 504 plan due to his disability). This wouldn't have given him extended time on an IQ test like the WISC (where the point of the test is to quantify specific abilities), but they are valid accommodations for learned ability tests like the CogAT.

My advice would be to have your dd tested privately - this will give you several things - a full battery of scores (verbal+non-verbal), most likely a more reliable sense of where your dd's abilities are, a report you can use to advocate for appropriate classroom and testing accommodations, and material you can use to advocate for GATE placement.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I discussed a 504 plan with the school psych and she claims DD doesn't need one because she is clearly doing just fine in school (never mind the fact that she is incredibly SLOW if her meds are not just right) and the only issue with her is the CogAt which they are willing to work around without a 504. I just don't understand why she is pushing this Weschler non-verbal test which looks just as bad as the CogAT. I don't know whether to push the issue with her or just say "forget it" and get outside testing. How much does that cost, if I just got a WISC? And would a WISC be the best test to give a kid with ADHD?

Oh, also, the district gifted coodinator (who is gone now) told me last spring that DD can not take the CogAT untimed, but she CAN take another test, like a normal IQ test. But she said that she is not a psych or testing expert and would leave that to the school psych. She made a note in DD's file that she needs a different test than the CogAT.

blackcat, I don't think any of us here can tell you how much "just a WISC" would cost unless we knew we lived in your area. To be honest, with a child with ADHD, I'd rather have a comprehensive neuropsych eval for two reasons: first reason is that in advocating for accommodations for our ds, having that neuropsych eval report gave us the backbone we needed when advocating in a situation where the school staff told us our ds didn't need "official" accommodations. Second reason is you have a child who did have a large discrepancy in verbal vs non-verbal on the CogAT - what if you have the school test on just the Weschler non-verbal and it comes in much lower than you expect is should? Or what if she was given the full CogAT or some other full ability test from the school and you saw a large split again? Your understanding of how her ADHD might have impacted her scores makes good sense, but what if there is any type of doubt at all or any possibility that something else may have caused the split in scores? For those reasons, I'd want private testing - where you know you are going to be able to ask questions of the person who tests and where you feel comfortable with the test setting so you feel like your dd has a chance to show her true abilities.

If your medical insurance covered your ds' neuropsych, you might be able to get a neuropsych eval covered for your dd too - I would ask for a referral based on the ADHD diagnosis + split in previous verbal vs non-verbal testing.

polarbear

Our insurance doesn't test any kind of evaluation for ADHD or learning disabilities (although they cover her meds, ironically). The reason DS's testing was covered was because of the brain injury and the neuoropsych coding the visit as traumatic brain injury.
We have open enrollment coming up for insurance so I should look into other plans and see if there is one that covers neuropsych testing.
We are in MN-Twin Cities area if anyone has recommendations for a place/person to do testing. The neuropsych that saw DS said he doesn't do cases like DD.

Another vote for the neuropsych. Results are invaluable and provide an expert who vouches for what your child needs.

By the way - a 504 is to cover accommodations for a MEDICAL diagnosis. The child's grades should not be a factor in the matter.

Just because a kid with terrible asthma is getting A's, doesn't mean they don't need a 504 for accommodations regarding physical activity. Just because a kid with PTSD gets A's doesn't mean they don't require accommodations. Same for ADHD! If you want a 504 you need to submit a request, in writing, asking for an evaluation.

Personally, I would want to go into the ARD meeting (or whatever they call the acceptance meeting where you live) with paperwork in-hand from a private neuropsych or psychologist.

What is an ARD or acceptance meeting? Believe me, the school has been totally ridiculous in the situation with both my kids. The school psych told me that if DD is doing fine in school and her learning isn't impacted (which according to her, it isn't because she does so well on achievement tests)she does not qualify for a 504. I informed the psych that they need to evaluate DD based on her medical diagnosis (ADHD) on how she is WITHOUT any modifications (like the meds) and that this is federal law. She said she wasn't aware of that (!!!!). But it still boils down to "no modifications are needed at this time." The teacher did not help, claiming that DD was "perfect" and she didn't see any issue with her. The school psych went in and observed her one day for 45 min. (probably when her Adderall was fully kicked in) and then told me she didn't see any problems. So I let it go. Then the last week of school I got an email from DD's teacher saying that DD is sloppy, moody, excessively slow, can't accomplish the simplest tasks, etc (this after she claimed she was "perfect"!!!). I forwarded that onto the school psych with a note "maybe she needs a 504 after all" and of course the psych never replied, which is typical. We switched her meds over the summer and so far the new teacher doesn't have any complaints. I'm not sure what I'd ask for in a 504. If I took her off her meds, then it would become painfully obvious to everyone that DD has major issues (and her current teacher did see that one day when I ran out of patches), but if she is overall fine on the meds, then I'm not sure what the 504 would address (other than the CogAt).

FYI, the CogAT is NOT supposed to be timed for grades K-2. For many kids it is the very first standardized test they have ever taken. It is also not intended to be used as a way to exclude kids from gifted programs, even though it routinely is. The creators themselves have said that.

Her scores should not be considered valid if she did not finish. I don't think they need to give her a different test necessarily. They should start with giving the CogAT properly.

I think they use a grade level ahead. So she was in second grade and taking the third grade test. The other issue was that she had just turned 7 when she took it, since she was grade accelerated. How many just-turned 7 year olds have the maturity to take a timed test like that, esp. if it is two grade levels ahead of their age?
She had to also take the CogAt when she was grade accelerated in K, and I don't know what her scores were--just that the non-verbal was very high and verbal was just "ok", around the 90th percentile I think (so the opoposite of what we are seeing now with the verbal being highest). That version wasn't timed and was given to her orally. She also wasn't medicated at all back then so I'm surprised she wasn't dancing around on the table.

Is there something in writing somewhere saying that the test should not be valid if she did not finish. Right now it's sitting in her file and the third grade teacher was actually referring to it to make curriculum decisions for her! She decided that she is a verbal/reading kid and not very good at math. Apparently she didn't look at her 98th percentile math achievement test! I just want that awful, misleading report out of her records. You have to look at it closely to figure out she didn't answer half the questions.

A great many school administrators and special ed specialists, however, DO in fact think that this is so. It's maddening that they don't see it as discriminatory that such children are not getting the same basic access with dignity that their peers do. But a great many school officials we've run into over the years don't see the problem if there "isn't a learning deficit." I'm pretty sure that none of them would actually think that a mobility-challenged child should have to "just watch" the other kids during PE, or drag him/herself up the stairs to the (non-accessible) restrooms. But at the same time, they may really not see how exclusion or embarrassment of children for other disabilities is just as wrong.

To them, I say, meet Lillie. (Lillie-Felton, I mean. )

ARD = Acceptance / Review / Dismissal = It's a meeting to get started with a 504 or IEP, to change it, or end it. Other places call it something else.

Your child wouldn't qualify for an IEP if they are passing, but they should qualify for a 504. You might want to check out http://www.wrightslaw.com

The only reason I was able to get an IEP for DS was due to his severe anxiety and PDD-NOS diagnosis from the neuropsychologist.

How frustrating for you! The CogAt is not timed per se, but at that age isn't it READ to them, so they in effect need to "keep up"? If they do not answer quickly, I believe the teacher/proctor goes on to read the next question? After her spring CogAt, DD mentioned lots of kids asking the teacher to repeat questions and otherwise making comments during the test - I got the impression that the teacher did NOT want to repeat questions. I also thought that I read somewhere that if there is enough of a disparity between subtest scores, the test results may be questionable. I believe, however, that this information is only available on certain score report formats (with an SAS for each subsection, which our district did not provide)- it was not on our CoGat score report, because parents only received percentiles scores, and then a composite. I actually would like the SAS subtest scores, because although DD had a 99% composite score, she has a 9(V+ Q-) profile and I'd like to know how significant the point difference is between her subtest scores. I suspect she may have hit a ceiling on the verbal portion, but that her quantitative was many points lower. I believe you need the SAS subtest scores for this, though, as the percentiles give a vague picture. This test sounds like it is trouble for many very, very bright children - I have been reading quite a bit trying to make heads-or-tails out of the limited information that has been shared with us - I hope that you have some success with your schools!

Specifically, from CogAt's own interpretation website, under "E" profiles:

When students obtain an E profile, it is important to double-check the integrity of their scores. The section "For Additional Information" (below) directs teachers to parts of the CogAT Interpretive Guide for Teachers and Counselors that explain how to check (1) whether the students attempted most of the test items, (2) whether their score reports contain score warnings, and (3) whether the confidence intervals on their plot of scores (shown on the List of Student Scores and the Profile Narrative Report) are reaso[i]nable.[/i]

This would seem to give you a great starting place to discuss the validity of those scores. HTH!

I'm 99 percent sure that the test was written (not read aloud), they set a timer, and said ready, set, go, kind of like the SAT. The version she took was 6/A. Not sure if that makes a difference. The one that she took in kindergarten was read to her. So for math, for instance, it says that there were 60 items, she attempted 32, and got 30 correct. Percentile rank: 57 (not even close to the 98-99 she is getting on achievement testing for math). I'm also wondering if they even had norms for her age. I mean, how many just turned 7 year olds take the version 6/A. Most kids are probably 8-9. So did they just throw her into the closest possible group? It says for Ability Profile: 7E (V+Q-) and I looked this up on the cogat website and that's where it talked about twice exceptional. Her gap between verbal and quantitiave was 27 (standard age score). I bet the district isn't even aware of what these ability profiles mean or in what cases the test should not be considered valid. All they care about is testing kids as quickly/cheaply as possible and setting their rigid cutoffs for GATE or cluster grouping that they think no one can argue with.

Interesting - DD took version 6/2, along with the entire 2nd grade. She was also 7. Perhaps 6/A is where it turns into a written test? Sorry if I missed this, but did you ask about age-norming? The CogAt composite that is used along with other tests by our school to determine whether a child gets into the pool (and is then eligible for MORE testing to determine if eligible for G&T) was age-normed. DD is young for her grade and this was the first time I've seen something age-normed versus grade-normed. NWEA/MAP appears to be only grade-normed for us. Although DD's CogAt composite was identical, some of her subtest percentile scores are higher when age-normed versus grade-normed. If your DD's scores were age-normed, they would also likely be higher.

I think that an SAS of 139 is 99%. I believe 99% starts at 135. 135-150 is a huge range...so SAS scores give more precise information than mere percentiles.

For verbal, her age percentile was 97 and grade percentile was 95, so they must be figuring in her younger age, but it seems like there should be a bigger gap than 2 percentiles, if most kids in her grade are 1 year older. So that makes me suspicious that they just lumped her in with the closest group they could find (for instance 7 1/2 year olds rather than kids who just turned 7). I can't prove that though unless there is some kind of percentile chart to reference. Now there is a new version of the CogAt, the CogAt 7, and I am curious if our district is going to adopt that and how it is the same or different. DS is going to have to deal with the CogAT as well, if we stay in this district. I can't see allowing DD to take it again, unless they agree to just give her the verbal section.

Sounds like kids would have to score in the 99.5 percentile to qualify for GATE without having the achievement test scores.