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    #166875 09/08/13 07:49 AM
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    moomin Offline OP
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    gone

    Last edited by moomin; 08/09/14 09:42 AM. Reason: gone
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    22B Offline
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    Unfortunately the author has totally messed up on the marshmallow analogy, and it ruins the article. The characteristic of having self-restraint (to delay gratification e.g. eating the marshmallow), is completely and utterly different to the characteristic of having "self-regulation" (to obediently comply with whatever society's, or school's, expectations for conformity happen to be at the time).

    That said, when we were looking into schooling options for our oldest we soon realized that B&M was absolutely not going to work for our "nonconformist wild child".

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by 22B
    Unfortunately the author has totally messed up on the marshmallow analogy, and it ruins the article.

    Well...the marshmallow stuff was a trivially small part of the article, so I suggest that your reaction is out of proportion to the perceived sin.

    Some ideas in this article were thought-provoking.

    The only problem is: It’s not clear that’s true. In 2007, Greg Duncan, a professor of education at the University of California at Irvine, did an analysis of the effects of social and emotional problems on a sample of 25,000 elementary school students. He found, he says, “Emotional intelligence in kindergarten was completely unpredictive.” Children who started school socially and emotionally unruly did just as well academically as their more contained peers from first through eighth grades. David Grissmer, at the University of Virginia, reran Duncan’s analysis repeatedly, hoping to prove him wrong. Instead, he confirmed that Duncan was right. A paper from Florida International University also found minimal correlation between emotional intelligence and college students’ GPAs.

    In 2011, CASEL volleyed back at the skeptics, publishing a gigantic meta-analysis (213 studies, 270,034 students) claiming that SEL programs raised academic performance by 11 percent. Such a large and divergent finding sent up a red flag for NurtureShock co-author Ashley Merryman, who’d read just about every published study relating to emotional intelligence and academic achievement while researching the book. So she examined CASEL’s source studies and discovered that only 33 of the 213 reported any academic results at all. She also uncovered a far more likely reason for CASEL’s fortuitous finding: Many of the students in the sample populations received academic tutoring.

    and

    Quote
    ...Val Gillies, a professor of social and policy studies at London South Bank University... describes the new emotional orthodoxy as a “calm, emotionally flat ideal” that “not only overlies a considerably more turbulent reality, [but] also denies the significance of passion as a motivator.” In theory, SEL gives less well-regulated children a more stable foundation from which to learn. In reality, writes Gillies, “Pupils who dissent from sanctioned models of expression are marked out as personally lacking.”

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    22B Offline
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    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by 22B
    Unfortunately the author has totally messed up on the marshmallow analogy, and it ruins the article.

    Well...the marshmallow stuff was a trivially small part of the article, so I suggest that your reaction is out of proportion to the perceived sin.

    It's right at the begining of the article (and a couple of places further down). It shows that the author is so muddleheaded in their thinking that one can't feel optimistic about the article.

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    I've never heard the marshmallow analogy so I had no issues with it. I just ignored it. I DID enjoy reading the article. Reminds me very much of my lively little Kindergartner who I'm sure many people would love to label ADHD yet, he's FAR from it!

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    Scott Barry Kaufman's book, Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined, more or less supports what this author says and, of course, suggests fostering the noncomformists in schools.

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    Did the people who designed the marshmallow experiment never hear of the saying "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". There are a lot more aspects to whether the child eats the marshmallow or not that they don't seem to allow for.

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    But, but how divergent were the outcomes after 8th grade? It doesn't smell right to me. How many kids are leaving school and entering careers right after 8th grade? Show me the outcomes at 12th, college and in careers...

    I am not a fan of EI, though, I have to say, but, performance in 8th grade should not be the end game here so I don't see bringing it up as delivering the 'knockout' blow to CASEL at all. Am I missing something?

    Last edited by madeinuk; 09/08/13 06:00 PM.

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    I am not a fan of EI, though, I have to say, but, performance in 8th grade should not be the end game here so I don't see bringing it up as delivering the 'knockout' blow to CASEL at all. Am I missing something?

    I'm not sure what you mean here. The focus was on EI and assumptions about academic performance. There was only one reference to the 8th grade in the article, and it didn't saying anything about knockout blows. It just said academic performance was the same. The end of that same paragraph talked about college students.

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    You are right, I did miss the last sentence of that paragraph and that does invalidate my objection the the argument being made. Thank you for pointing that out. I was indeed missing something.

    Last edited by madeinuk; 09/08/13 07:13 PM.

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