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    #163006 - 07/26/13 04:40 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    intparent Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/16/09
    Posts: 553
    Ha...my D would love that conversation too, although you have to replace Batman with Sherlock! I notice your D does not have any women's colleges on her list -- Wellesley probably makes your pocketbook twitch too much, but what about Mount Holyoke? My D got the best merit money there, and there is the five college consortium there for some supplementing of subjects at other colleges (Smith, U-Mass Amherst, Amherst, and Hampshire).

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    #163012 - 07/26/13 06:05 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Yes, it's on DH's list. I'm not sure that DD is sold on it.
    _________________________
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    #163015 - 07/26/13 06:33 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    intparent Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/16/09
    Posts: 553
    Has she visited? Mt Holyoke has a beautiful campus. Both of my Ds applied, they really liked it when they visited -- picked other colleges for various reasons. But I think D1 would have gone if they had given her merit money (they didn't). But D2 got a pile of it and money for a summer internship.


    Edited by intparent (07/26/13 06:47 AM)

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    #163036 - 07/26/13 10:30 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Good to know. Yes, I like the breakdown on non-need based aid at Holyoke.

    Here's today's interesting news story:

    WSJ Four Ideas to Fix Higher Education

    The graphic is interesting-- as is the observation that:

    Quote:

    the average cost of in-state tuition, room and board ($12,110 a year last year) at a four-year public university, after scholarships and tax breaks, has risen 40% faster than economywide inflation over the past decade, the College Board estimates. Private schools are more expensive (average net cost $23,840), but their inflation-adjusted net price has climbed more slowly, at 9%.


    Another useful bit of data, mentioned in the WSJ article above:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/education/higher-education/college-score-card



    Follow-up from Forbes' stories on higher ed earlier this week and month:

    Want To Know How Much College Will Cost You? It's Often Not What You Would Expect

    Quote:

    Students who do not qualify for need-based financial aid will find that their aid will range from nothing to a grant that will provide full tuition depending on the student’s academic ability and the priorities of the institution. As a general rule of thumb, an academically talented student who wants to get a large scholarship needs to look to schools which provide a lot of merit aid and where the student is significantly above the average academic achievement of the students that this school generally attracts. In addition, for the wealthier student, public institutions in the state where the student is resident often offer the lowest cost options because of their lower tuition.

    The bottom line is that college pricing is very complex and that complexity seems to discourage students of limited means and high ability from applying to top institutions. It pays to invest some time on a college’s web site or on the government’s college navigator site before drawing any conclusions about which school will cost the least for someone in your situation. Clearly, money isn’t everything and your choice of college should not be based solely on net price. For most of us, though, it’s an important factor to consider.



    emphasis mine-- this is what it boils down to, basically. If you're above middle income, expect to pay a lot out of pocket, or send your student to an in-state public institution... OR... to a college where your student is an academic rock star relative to his/her classmates.



    Edited by HowlerKarma (07/26/13 10:38 AM)
    _________________________
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    #163087 - 07/26/13 06:29 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    GailP Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 06/21/13
    Posts: 49
    Loc: Pennsylvania
    I love intparent's comment about how College Confidential is like crack to parents of college bound students. I would completely agree! It's an amazing website with tons of information.

    I'm coming late to this discussion, but have to comment that colleges, like everything in life, are complicated. Some seemingly prestigious schools can be a great bargain, with amazing financial aid. Some in-state schools can cost a whole lot more than these private schools (Penn State anyone?).

    The benefit of the ivies and other prestigious schools for gifted kids is that they can be FINALLY surrounded by other equally smart kids for the first time. They don't have to hide or suppress their intelligence like they may have had to in high school.

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    #163156 - 07/28/13 12:05 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: CFK]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    Originally Posted By: CFK
    My son's tuition for his BS degree in math at a decent state flagship will cost me about $9700. That's not per year, that's total. And that includes taking many (more costly than undergrad) graduate courses. ... It's not all doom and gloom.


    Did it cost much to take university courses while in high school?

    It seems you can get almost free tuition with high merit once you are a university student. But do you have to pay full price for individual courses when still enrolled in school?

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    #163157 - 07/28/13 05:21 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    intparent Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/16/09
    Posts: 553
    I think this depends on the state and the university. In the state I live in (MN) there is a program called Post Secondary Enrollment Options. I think some other states use the same term, too. Students can take some or all courses in the state university system during their junior and senior year of high school. Tuition fees are paid for by the state. I believe it is pretty competitive to enroll in courses at the state flagship, and you have to be aware of deadlines and paperwork required (you can't decide summer before junior year that you want your kid to take classes at the flagship that fall and get it done in that time period, I think the deadlines are earlier).

    Here is a link to Minnesota's program:

    http://www.mnscu.edu/admissions/pseo.html

    One thing to be aware of is that if your student has completed essentially two years of college work prior to enrolling in college, they may have to apply as a transfer student instead of a freshman. Different admission criteria, fewer slots, and usually no merit aid available. Which may be worthwhile for the overall cost reduction, but sometimes parents are surprised by this limitation.

    Also, in most states students still have to fulfill the high school graduation requirements, and depending on the state that can limit your ability to do dual enrollment in college courses (if they don't count toward the graduation requirements -- it depends on how the state has defined them).

    Some colleges (especially top universities) do not accept some or all of these credits -- you need to read the information on a given college website carefully about acceptance of other credits. You can be pretty sure that if your student stays within your state university system to complete their undergraduate degree that the credits will be accepted. Outside that, your milage may vary. Be sure your student saves the course description and syllabus for any courses taken in case the colleges considering accepting the credits want to see it.

    We didn't actually do this. My kids' private school did not allow participation in the PSEO program, although at one point we looked into withdrawing D2 from that high school, switching to the public school, and doing PSEO for her last year of high school. But didn't end up going down that path. Others out here may have more experience.

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    #163158 - 07/28/13 05:25 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    intparent Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/16/09
    Posts: 553
    If you are still thinking Ivies for your kids, here is a discussion of Yale & dual enrollment credits:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale...dual+enrollment

    You will need to check the website of each college on their policies, but I suspect this isn't unusual among top colleges.


    Edited by intparent (07/28/13 05:26 AM)

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    #163160 - 07/28/13 07:44 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: 22B
    Originally Posted By: CFK
    My son's tuition for his BS degree in math at a decent state flagship will cost me about $9700. That's not per year, that's total. And that includes taking many (more costly than undergrad) graduate courses. ... It's not all doom and gloom.


    Did it cost much to take university courses while in high school?

    It seems you can get almost free tuition with high merit once you are a university student. But do you have to pay full price for individual courses when still enrolled in school?



    Here, that varies by county, by school district, and even by individual school.

    DD's school (and the one she's districted for, also) will not cover dual enrollment costs. Period. They'll allow you to count the courses toward graduation... but--

    they also won't "weight" the grade the way that they will with AP offered on campus. Yes, this is stupid. When asked to defend this policy, one local administrator patiently "explained" to me that college courses-- unlike their AP courses-- are of 'variable' quality... and they don't 'control' them, so they can't very well offer grade weighting...

    You can imagine what I thought of THAT... and never one to not speak my mind, I said so, too. With a pointed aside about class rank being utterly meaningless in such a system.

    In a neighboring district's schools, though-- students can attend the local community college for VASTLY reduced rates.

    In some states, this kind of patchwork doesn't exist because of centralized policy on the subject. Recall, though, that my own state is one in which AP is thought to be the cornerstone of GT educational policy for secondary, in spite of the many hurdles associated with getting a child into that system before 12th grade. Most districts with a lot of dual enrollment opportunity have very weak course offerings themselves. So it isn't necessarily a good thing if that option exists for you.

    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #163162 - 07/28/13 09:29 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    CFK's posts have got me thinking. There was a related discussion in the thread "Finishing school maths when not ready for college" started by ColinsMum.
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/B...hs_when_no.html

    Our DS7 will probably finish AP Calc BC in grade 6 at age 11-12, and will then have run out of courses at his virtual school. (Since it is one school for all grades he will get high school credit for all courses Alg I, Geom, Alg II, Trig/Precalc, AP Calc BC, even though he'll take them in Elem/Mid school.) So the question is, what then? He'll only be slightly accelerated in "humanities" type subjects, so won't be ready for college until about age 17 (one year early), maybe a bit earlier, or maybe not early at all.

    My thinking had been for him to try to get into an "elite" university at the regular age of 18, assuming that they are so competitive that trying earlier wouldn't be a plausible option. (Obviously I can't be sure yet if he'd be strong enough academically, but the fact that these "elites" focus a lot on non-academics makes admission that much harder.)

    I'm not sure why I hadn't clearly thought it through before, but CFK's posts make it clear to me that my son is on a trajectory where he could be taking university maths courses for 4-5 years at the local university (and maybe some science courses too) before he actually formally starts university, by which time he'll be in a position to finish his BSc in about 2 years at the local university, fulfilling the "humanities"(etc.) requirements, while taking math graduate courses, and then trying for an "elite" university for graduate school.

    There's a dilemma here. This kind of acceleration puts you on a path of starting university early at the local "mediocre" university, and finishing quickly, and it actually seems to make it less likely that you'll have the option of getting into an "elite" university for undergraduate.

    I still think there are big advantages to the "elite" universities for undergraduate too, if the price is right. The courses will be much more rigorous, the standards much higher, and there'll be a larger pool of more able students. (I explained earlier how I thought my combination of "mediocre" undergraduate and "elite" graduate was a mistake.)

    But I'm seeing our son's trajectory being similar to CFK's. He could still apply to the "elite" universities, but if it's at a younger age, admission is that much more unlikely, and also much of the course credit would be lost (and it is right for these universities to not accept the courses of "lesser" universities, and it's not so bad to retake a much more rigorous version of a course).

    You don't want to artificially slow down the natural pace of acceleration, but the acceleration can land you in some awkward places. (My attitude is to keep up the natural pace of acceleration, and cross bridges when you come to them, but you still need to look ahead.)

    I'd appreciate any thoughts on all this.

    ETA: I didn't see CFK's latest reply. I'll read it now.


    Edited by 22B (07/28/13 09:30 AM)

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