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    #162765 - 07/22/13 11:58 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    I think one of the main points in all of this is that costs matter. But the costs depend on your financial status, your academic status, and the institution.

    If you have a second quartile household income
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?ref=business
    namely about $50k-$90k per year, the the Ivies and other elites are much cheaper than other options. (Some Ivies will even cap net price at 10% of income up to $150k income, so 91% of households would pay at most 10% of income, if accepted.)

    I went to http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/ to get stats on universities, and also checked out the Net Price Calculators of each place, and put in mid 2nd quartile income numbers $70k income, $200k house, $100k other non-sheltered assets.

    The following are the 15 private universities with 25th Percentile SAT Math scores at least 700, and I list the middle 50% of those scores, and the Net Price (including loans and student work) given by their Calculators.

    California Institute of Technology
    760-800
    $21k

    Columbia University in the City of New York
    700-790
    $15k

    Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering
    725-790
    $13k

    Harvard University
    710-790
    $7k

    Harvey Mudd College
    740-800
    $19k

    Massachusetts Institute of Technology
    740-800
    $17k

    Northwestern University
    700-780
    $26k

    Princeton University
    710-800
    $11k

    Rice University
    700-780
    $18k

    Stanford University
    700-790
    $8k

    University of Chicago
    700-790
    $25k

    Vanderbilt University
    710-790
    $16k

    Washington University in St Louis
    720-790
    $22k

    Webb Institute
    700-750
    $10k

    Yale University
    700-800
    $14k


    The following are the 5 public universities with 25th Percentile SAT Math scores at least 640, and I list the middle 50% of those scores, and the Net Price (including loans and student work) given by their Calculators. These are out-of state prices.

    Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus
    660-760
    $26k

    University of California-Berkeley
    650-770
    $44k

    University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
    680-790
    $44k

    University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
    650-760
    $41k

    University of Virginia-Main Campus
    640-740
    $20k

    -----------------------------------

    Berkeley is SIX TIMES MORE EXPENSIVE THAN Stanford!!!!

    It may be very hard to get into some of the elite institution listed above, but if you do, and you have an upper middle class income in the second quartile $50k-$90k range, then some of these places are very affordable.

    This is why I am so keen to find out what it takes to get in.


    Edited by 22B (07/23/13 04:16 PM)

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    #162768 - 07/23/13 04:49 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Mana]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1453
    Loc: NJ
    Originally Posted By: Mana
    Just adding a link to a different on Allen Yuan:

    http://www.aapt.org/physicsteam/2009/team.cfm?id=787

    My favorite bits:

    " Before kindergarten, I wasn't particularly bright; the one thing that fascinated me most was the vacuum cleaner."

    "I did not do too well at the competition, but I was inspired by the people in the countdown round -- I marveled at their speed and wanted to be like them, so I began to study for MATHCOUNTS and eventually was able to get 2nd written at the national competition."

    "As for physics, I took my first introductory physics class in 9th grade. While I didn't really obtain a very solid understanding of physics, I became interested in the subject (after doing quite terribly on the first round of the USAPHO that year)."

    You can't help but cheer for a boy like this.


    Indeed.

    And it also shows that while the 'magic ingredient' might be innate intelligence; curiosity, drive and self discipline are substantial factors also.
    _________________________
    Become what you are

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    #162769 - 07/23/13 04:53 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2612
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: 22B
    I think one of the main points in all of this is that costs matter. But the costs depend on your financial status, your academic status, and the institution.

    If you have a second quartile household income
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?ref=business
    namely about $50k-$90k per year, the the Ivies and other elites are much cheaper than other options. (Some Ivies will even cap net price at 10% of income up to $150k income, so 91% of households would pay at most 10% of income, if accepted.)

    I went to http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/ to get stats on universities, and also checked out the Net Price Calculators of each place, and put in mid 2nd quartile income numbers $70k income, $200k house, $100k other non-sheltered assets.

    The following are the 15 private universities with 25th Percentile SAT Math scores at least 700, and I list the middle 50% of those scores, and the Net Price (including loans and student work) given by their Calculators.


    Thanks for your research. Were the prices quoted for state schools for out-of-state residents?

    Top
    #162771 - 07/23/13 06:28 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: madeinuk]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2612
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk

    And it also shows that while the 'magic ingredient' might be innate intelligence; curiosity, drive and self discipline are substantial factors also.


    You put the "innate" modifier only in front of intelligence, but I suspect, based on both reading and paternal experience, that curiosity, drive, and self-discipline are also tough for parents or teachers to change, and even for people to change themselves through force of will. A recent book I am reading is "Willpower", by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney.



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    #162772 - 07/23/13 06:29 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Thanks for your research. Were the prices quoted for state schools for out-of-state residents?


    Just looking at Berkeley as an example, it appears to be a median between the in-state and out-of-state costs, including room and board.

    http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1090


    Top
    #162773 - 07/23/13 06:51 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1453
    Loc: NJ
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk

    And it also shows that while the 'magic ingredient' might be innate intelligence; curiosity, drive and self discipline are substantial factors also.


    You put the "innate" modifier only in front of intelligence, but I suspect, based on both reading and paternal experience, that curiosity, drive, and self-discipline are also tough for parents or teachers to change, and even for people to change themselves through force of will. A recent book I am reading is "Willpower", by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney.




    While I think that there may be differences between individuals in terms of the innate 'ceiling' for these qualities, I do believe that unlike 'g' these the other qualities can be learned and are largely based on level of maturity.

    From my own personal experience I know that I would only apply myself as a youngster if I found the teacher engaging and the topic at hand interesting. Only later did I learn that to sometimes you do have to do stuff because you have to do it. There is a strong cultural component too - I do not think that Chinese, Korean and Japanese overachievement in this country is entirely genetic, for instance.
    _________________________
    Become what you are

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    #162774 - 07/23/13 06:54 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    ... also bear in mind that as income level rises, the amount of aid which is in LOANS also rises.

    We're just above the range mentioned above... and our EFC is in the mid-thirty-thousands.

    Calculators which are university specific generally have been spitting out loans to the tune of 5-14K annually as a result.

    Thus our bimodal decision tree on the subject. We can either pay completely out of pocket for a private school out of state, pay completely out of pocket for a public school out of state, or pay a WAY smaller amount out of pocket for an in-state flagship.

    My point is-- watch and tease apart the LOAN amounts in "met need" calculations. It's often hidden a bit in the fine print-- particularly when colleges play the game of considering STUDENT loans separately from PARENT loans. (This is so insane that it is hard to even articulate coherently, frankly.)


    http://collegecost.ed.gov/catc/Default.aspx

    The above is a great way to truth-check a University/College's statements against what they have actually been doing in terms of aid and tuition/fees. We have really opted to try to steer clear of anyone that comes up with a clear gap between what they SAY and what the NCES data suggests is more in line with reality at the institution. I gather that this is also the approach that intparent has used.


    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #162775 - 07/23/13 07:04 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian

    Thanks for your research. Were the prices quoted for state schools for out-of-state residents?

    Out-of-state.

    Top
    #162777 - 07/23/13 07:21 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    intparent Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/16/09
    Posts: 553
    Quote:
    I hope everyone realizes that you should not put any money into a 529 plan or taxable account unless you have already put the maximum allowed amount into all available tax-shelered retirement plans first. And paying down/off your mortgage should also take precedence over taxable or 529 plan investing.


    Only if you plan to tap your retirement funds somehow (possible with a Roth or possibly a loan from a 401K) or your home equity via loans (which has a high interest rate) to pay for your kids' educations. Especially if you have a very low interest rate on the mortgage with the tax break that comes along with the interest payment (if you itemize), it doesn't necessarily make more sense to pay down the mortgage. And don't think your house equity is exempt from scrutiny by top colleges looking at your assets for paying for college...

    Also, most 529 plans have a variety of options regarding investment risk. They aren't just a savings account with .1% interest or something like that. There are options like that within our plan, but there are also things like "age banded" options with a mix of stock & bond investments that shift as your kid ages. We don't have all of our college savings in 529s, but generally those investments have done quite well over the course of the 15 years or so that we have had them. Investing regularly (especially if you can front load) in a 529 is an excellent way to make sure you have money set aside for college. There are also ways you can get the money out if you don't need it for education for various reason without a tax hit (if your child gets scholarships that cover the cost, for example). Or it can be used later for a graduate degree if you want to. Or transferred to another person (child, grandchild, etc). Don't knock the 529 investment and assume retirement and mortgage paydowns are a better idea. They have their place as well, and we have not ignored retirement or the mortgage. But we are better positioned that almost anyone I know in our income bracket for paying for college, so take that for what it is worth.

    Note that the net price calculators are not reliable if you have a small business, are divorced, get any money from relatives to help with payments, or have any trusts. They are not a guarantee of what your actual cost will be. I assume that to run the calculator for a state school like Berkeley or Michigan you need to tell them if you are a state resident or not -- the costs shown in 22B's list are clearly from OOS. And who would expect a state university to give good need based aid to an OOS student? So that is no surprise.

    Regarding the question about USAMO -- no one can tell you what the admissions committee considers "worthy" of admission to any of these schools. A very top prize nationally in a competition like USAMO AND great grades AND great test scores AND great recommendations will certainly get your kid considered at top schools. But they could be competing against kids who have that AND play a sport AND are an under-represented minority at the school. There are no guarantees in this process.

    And you can (honestly) destroy your relationship with your kids if you become a "tiger parent" who is all about admission to those schools and drive your kids to accomplish it. To me that would not be worth the tuition break... you might say you are not being a "tiger parent" because you are doing it for the money, not the prestige. But the end result for you and your kids is the same.

    You asked about merit aid. Generally colleges that are "second tier" or lower tend to offer more merit aid. Merit aid is not based on your financial need at all. BUT, many colleges cut need based grants if you get merit aid. Some of them will cut the loans out of their financial aid "package" first if you get merit aid from the college. Note that outside scholarship also often offset the need based package. So your cost of attendance ends up unchanged...

    My D got the following merit aid offers this past spring. All are "per year", so she have gotten this each of her four years on campus:

    Kenyon - $15,000
    Macalester - $15,000
    Lawrence - $21,000
    Mount Holyoke - $25,000 plus funding for a summer internship
    University of Chicago - $5,000

    She also would have gotten an extra $1,000-$2,000 per year for being a National Merit Finalist if she had picked any of those colleges.

    There are colleges that offer free rides for merit -- University of Alabama and University of Oklahoma come to mind. USC has some half tuition scholarships for National Merit Finalists, too. Some public universities, especially in the south, have guaranteed scholarships for students based on test scores/GPA.
    Really, we ARE recreating College Confidential out here. You should go out there and review the existing threads and post questions there. Here is a link to the financial aid forum:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/

    At the very top of this page there is a link on automatic and full ride scholarships.

    Top
    #162779 - 07/23/13 07:34 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: intparent]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2612
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: intparent
    And don't think your house equity is exempt from scrutiny by top colleges looking at your assets for paying for college...

    Not at Harvard -- see http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/B...html#Post126438 . I am not sure about other schools.

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