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    #247645 - 10/03/20 04:50 PM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: kmbunday]
    ChasingTwo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/07/16
    Posts: 73
    “Just like cocaine?” I don’t think so. Certainly we want children to be diagnosed accurately and not misdiagnosed with something they do not have. But how much of a problem is this, really? Is there data?

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    #247646 - 10/03/20 06:43 PM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4345
    @ChasingTwo - many who read that article may have similar questions to those you expressed.
    Ritalin is a class 2 drug, which means it is a narcotic, just like cocaine.
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    “Just like cocaine?” I don’t think so.
    There are several schedules of Class II drugs posted online and readily accessible.
    For example, Drugs.com > Reference > CSA Schedules > Schedule 2 (II) Drugs, a list which includes both ritalin and 3 forms of cocaine.
    The drug has a high potential for abuse. The drug has a currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States or a currently accepted medical use with severe restrictions. Abuse of the drug may lead to severe psychological or physical dependence.

    The following drugs are listed as Schedule 2 (II) Drugs* by the Controlled Substances Act (CSA)...


    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    Certainly we want children to be diagnosed accurately and not misdiagnosed with something they do not have. But how much of a problem is this, really? Is there data?
    You may want to check the works related to "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses" on the SENG website.
    Originally Posted By: SENG website
    Many gifted and talented children (and adults) are being mis-diagnosed by psychologists, psychiatrists, pediatricians, and other health care professionals. The most common mis-diagnoses are: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)...
    Also:
    1) SENG initiative - https://www.sengifted.org/misdiagnosis-initiative
    2) SENG articles - https://www.sengifted.org/allarticles/categories/misdiagnosis
    3) Book, 2nd edition (2016) - https://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/1935067435

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    #247647 - 10/03/20 07:49 PM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: kmbunday]
    ChasingTwo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/07/16
    Posts: 73
    As a prescriber of schedule two narcotics, I consider the comparison of cocaine to Ritalin *in this article* sensationalism. For example, marijuana and heroin are both schedule one narcotics, but surely you would agree that if someone said marijuana was “just like heroin,” this would be laughable. It may be argued that the author meant “just like” only in reference to the schedule, which taken literally, may be true. But the sentiment certainly meant to draw parallels and insinuate danger in a sensational way. I think this attitude is more harmful than helpful from a public health perspective.

    Additionally, I have read Webb’s book above and have similar concerns.

    And I’m still looking for data on the prevalence of this misdiagnosis issue. I don’t see the answer in any of the SENG links, but maybe I am overlooking something. I am also interested in how it compares to the problem of lack of access to a needed diagnosis (for any number of reasons). Which is worse? And which is more frequent?

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    #247648 - 10/03/20 09:20 PM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4345
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    As a prescriber of schedule two narcotics, I consider the comparison of cocaine to Ritalin *in this article* sensationalism. For example, marijuana and heroin are both schedule one narcotics, but surely you would agree that if someone said marijuana was “just like heroin,” this would be laughable. It may be argued that the author meant “just like” only in reference to the schedule, which taken literally, may be true. But the sentiment certainly meant to draw parallels and insinuate danger in a sensational way. I think this attitude is more harmful than helpful from a public health perspective.
    You may wish to contact the article's author with a constructive explanation of your concerns, and any suggested re-wording which you believe may be more beneficial?

    Meanwhile, as a casual observer I would say that the point of the article was to raise awareness among those in the target audience: parents of gifted children, a relatively small and overlooked percentage of the population, so they may ask questions, do their research, have conversations with their children's medical providers, and together make informed decisions. The article is not lobbying for public health policy or giving medical advice. It is not published in a medical journal.

    Possibly you are missing the point of the thread, and the point of this article within the thread, and are therefore veering off-topic.

    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    And I’m still looking for data on the prevalence of this misdiagnosis issue. I don’t see the answer in any of the SENG links, but maybe I am overlooking something.
    You may wish to contact SENG and the book's co-authors to inquire of their research data and sample size(s)?

    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    I am also interested in how it compares to the problem of lack of access to a needed diagnosis (for any number of reasons). Which is worse? And which is more frequent?
    I doubt that information would be presented in this Gifted Issues Discussion Forum, but rather may be a subject for research.

    For any of the posts on this thread, one could similarly ask, or demand to know, how prevalent any particular negative experience may be... how frequently it occurs... what the likelihood of occurrence is. But for purposes of this forum, it may be enough for parents to be aware of and prepared for any of the cautionary tales in the various posts in this discussion thread; this is a crowd-sourced sampling of negative experiences that children and families have encountered, a collection of anecdotal evidence, not empirical evidence.

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    #247649 - 10/04/20 02:33 AM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    Kai Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/17/09
    Posts: 611
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    “Just like cocaine?” I don’t think so. Certainly we want children to be diagnosed accurately and not misdiagnosed with something they do not have. But how much of a problem is this, really? Is there data?


    The entire sentence says this: "Ritalin is a class 2 drug, which means it is a narcotic, just like cocaine."

    The phrase "just like cocaine" is referring to Ritalin's status as a schedule II drug. There is an implied "is." As in "Ritalin is a class 2 drug, which means it is a narcotic, just like cocaine is."

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    #247650 - 10/04/20 05:08 AM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: kmbunday]
    ChasingTwo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/07/16
    Posts: 73
    “ Possibly you are missing the point of the thread, and the point of this article within the thread, and are therefore veering off-topic.”

    In my opinion, I do not believe that pointing out what appears to be bias or misinformation is equivalent to veering off-topic. In fact, it seems the responsible thing to do if the goal is to raise awareness among parents of gifted children. Thank you for providing the format for such a discussion.

    Kai, I addressed your concern in my prior post. We appear to interpret the article’s tone and goals differently.

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    #247651 - 10/04/20 09:37 AM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: Kai]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4345
    Originally Posted By: Kai
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    “Just like cocaine?” I don’t think so. Certainly we want children to be diagnosed accurately and not misdiagnosed with something they do not have. But how much of a problem is this, really? Is there data?


    The entire sentence says this: "Ritalin is a class 2 drug, which means it is a narcotic, just like cocaine."

    The phrase "just like cocaine" is referring to Ritalin's status as a schedule II drug. There is an implied "is." As in "Ritalin is a class 2 drug, which means it is a narcotic, just like cocaine is."
    Well said, Kai. Thank you.

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    #247652 - 10/04/20 10:17 AM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4345
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    In my opinion, I do not believe that pointing out what appears to be bias or misinformation is equivalent to veering off-topic. In fact, it seems the responsible thing to do if the goal is to raise awareness among parents of gifted children.
    What bias or misinformation, ChasingTwo...?

    Is it bias to alert parents of gifted children of the potential for some to participate in pathologizing giftedness...
    and that misdiagnosis that may lead to unnecessary Rx of schedule 2 narcotics...?

    As a reader of this article, I believe that everyone involved with the gifted should be aware of this.
    If you contact the article author, suggesting points to rewrite, please do share the resulting updated article with us.

    I wish you all the best with your quest to learn more about how frequently misdiagnosis occurs, as compared with how frequently a diagnosis is missed, and which error has greater impact.

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    #247654 - 10/05/20 03:48 PM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: indigo]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 85
    Loc: Australia
    Thanks for your contributions Indigo. I think the potential to pathologize giftedness is a very important issue.

    When DS was very young, he would get very engrossed in his own activities which were mainly centred on studying the cause & effects of things. At age 3-4, he attended a child care centre where he would often ignore their activities to continue his own. The staff at the centre strongly urged us to have him assessed for ADHD, hearing deficits etc (even to the point of suggesting we were neglectful parents), but DH and I knew from our much broader experience of him that it was his giftedness driving his behaviour and not any deficits preventing him from ‘normal’ interactions. Eventually, the psychologist who assessed his IQ at 4 described his non verbal reasoning as ‘a-ma-zing’ (he ceilinged on the SBV) and when he started school, he emerged as a social leader.

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    #247655 - 10/06/20 10:38 AM Re: What Should Everyone Know about Gifted Education? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1602
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    As a prescriber of schedule two narcotics, I consider the comparison of cocaine to Ritalin *in this article* sensationalism. For example, marijuana and heroin are both schedule one narcotics, but surely you would agree that if someone said marijuana was “just like heroin,” this would be laughable.


    If you are prescribing dilaudid and oxycontin, then you are aware that for more than a decade, doctors were prescribing oxy for simple back aches to deal with symptoms. Not any real diagnosis. And same with Ritallin. There were stories of 90% of kids in some towns being on Ritallin in the early 2000s. That is a ridiculous.

    Many on here have anecdotal stories that could line up with the diagnosis of attention deficit. I would recommend to anyone to look at alternatives. I have said many times gifted is not one size fits all. You find in this forums a bunch of stories and find stuff that may or may not work for you. My kid took a long and winding road through middle school that sometimes made me question how gifted she was, could she focus? It was just her path. Now 11th grade, focused, knows what she wants. 5.0 average last year, math and chemistry and computer science are top scores. She did a self study last year and took the AP Chinese exam. Did well. Created an app and a business plan. To put kids on some drugs before their brains are fully developed is not a greatidea in my opinion. Alternatively, I invest in other stuff. She wanted to dive to do marine research, I made it happen. Providing outlets is better, in my opinion.

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