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    I completely understand, Cricket. You very definitely are not basing your philosophical choices on having read Charlotte's Web one too many times. wink

    I have met some vegans who have based their beliefs on that, however.

    Quote
    It is more that my path leads me toward minimizing my personal contribution to that suffering where I can.

    Completely rational. smile



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by Cricket2
    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    I'm not sure that it is a common feature of gifted people in general, but perhaps it is. I have to have a reason WHY I believe something.

    Me too.
    I do think that is a common trait in many gifted individuals. I believe that I've also seen studies that indicate that highly intelligent people are more likely to be atheist. I suspect that a similar premise is underlying: it is hard for us to simply accept something on faith without a reason why or some proof.

    I'd even flip the causality around and say that a need to understand WHY is frequently a key precursor to intelligence. Even to the point where I think for me experience sans epiphany is detritus.

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    That need to interpret and establish meaning may not explain the fact that relatively few children in the classroom (reported earlier, up-thread) responded with long-term lifestyle changes, but still explains why that one did.

    Experience which is understood and incorporated can't help but promote change, or at least serious contemplation of it.

    Mindfulness is a good thing.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by doubtfulguest
    SO with you on this... i have a total horror of being blinded by assumptions and therefore question EVERYTHING. i'm sure it's massively annoying to everyone around me - i know it drives my husband nuts, but it feels like the only way to truly live honourably.

    Oh, do I identify with this statement. People here may have noticed my tendency to question stuff.

    Last edited by Val; 06/26/13 10:54 AM.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Cricket, I think that the major difference in conclusions is dependent (at least for high IQ people) on whether or not they adopt beliefs as follows:

    a) all creatures which are sentient possess something which could be termed a "soul"

    b) creatures with souls (see a) should be granted more-or-less equivalent rights

    c) all creatures which are sentient are "animals"

    d) human beings are/are not somehow different from animals

    There's also the issue of animals killed during the farming process.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat#Debate_over_animals_killed_in_crop_harvesting

    If you don't value human life over the lives of field mice, I'm afraid it's going to be very difficult to continue your existence. Vegetarians and vegans still have animal blood on their hands.

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    It's also true that.... well, where DO you draw the line?

    Antibiotics kill living organisms as well, after all.

    Are mosquitoes an exception? What about lice or ticks?

    Are helminths not as "alive" as insects?

    What makes vertebrates special?

    Cephalopods would argue that point... and more to the point, probably could argue it successfully. LOL.

    Once you stop and really think about this, you realize that there are probably no options which are entirely, 100% ethical or internally consistent and completely black and white. Even Jains cause death in order to live, and as far as I know, they don't advocate limiting one's oxygen intake in order to minimize impact.

    It makes far more sense (to me, from my occasionally Vulcan-like philosophical outlook) to work through it as an individual and decide where you are going to stand on that spectrum-- and why.





    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by doubtfulguest
    SO with you on this... i have a total horror of being blinded by assumptions and therefore question EVERYTHING. i'm sure it's massively annoying to everyone around me - i know it drives my husband nuts, but it feels like the only way to truly live honourably.

    Oh, do I identify with this statement. People here may have noticed my tendency to question stuff.

    hee - glad i'm not alone in that. my husband probably also wishes that my Identification Of A Problem wasn't always just the thinly-veiled step one in The Speedy Course of Action.


    Every Sunday it brooded and lay on the floor. Inconveniently close to the drawing-room door.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    It makes far more sense (to me, from my occasionally Vulcan-like philosophical outlook) to work through it as an individual and decide where you are going to stand on that spectrum-- and why.

    I try to only eat things that I want to eat.

    It's very important to me to have the self-actualization and autonomy to actually make this choice for myself.

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    Originally Posted by DAD22
    There's also the issue of animals killed during the farming process.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat#Debate_over_animals_killed_in_crop_harvesting

    If you don't value human life over the lives of field mice, I'm afraid it's going to be very difficult to continue your existence. Vegetarians and vegans still have animal blood on their hands.
    That, honestly, comes across as a bit of baiting to me. I don't believe that, if you cannot do something perfectly, that you shouldn't try to do it at all. Thus, you notice my statement above about minimizing my contribution to suffering and death as much as possible.

    I wouldn't, for instance, say that if I couldn't stop all suffering and pain in patients (I work in healthcare), that it is not worth doing what I can to make those people who I can effect more comfortable. I, like all, may have "blood on my hands," as you say, but I try my hardest to have the least blood I can on my conscience. Where I can affect it, I do, which is better than nothing IMHO.

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    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    I try to only eat things that I want to eat.

    It's very important to me to have the self-actualization and autonomy to actually make this choice for myself.

    I use this approach with my kids. Our rule in the house is that everyone has to try a new food. If someone doesn't like it, he doesn't have to eat more of it. End of story.

    We aren't dealing with allergies or other related medical conditions and we are economically not in a position where our choices are severely limited. So we can do this. Our kids like a lot of healthy foods, too: fresh veggies, sushi, salad, etc. Overall, this approach works for us and mealtimes here are rarely times of stress due to fighting about having to eat hated foods.

    Instead, there is plenty of time for kids to create other kinds of mealtime stress, such as fighting with each other, acting hyper, and so on. Ahh, family dinner! Such fun.

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