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    Joined: Jul 2011
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    "Me, on the other hand, I was seriously traumatized by my 7-8 yo experience of raising market pigs. Pigs are intelligent and affectionate-- very dog-like once you get to know them, and they have a level of cognitive awareness that makes eating factory-farmed ones impossible for me personally, having had that personal experience."

    Pet pigs are pretty cute.

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    Remember that most books and documentaries on this subject are propagandized, too.

    That doesn't meant that what films like Food, Inc. portray is untrue (it's not)... just that it has been carefully selected to support a particular viewpoint.

    My DD has always found propaganda fascinating-- she is a HUGE fan of Micheal Moore's work, and finds it fascinating to examine critically.

    I think that kind of approach-- lots of questions about the "why" of beliefs and statements-- and even questions about assumptions ("is that factually correct? Is it always true? Sometimes true? Unknown?") works especially well with HG people.


    Then again, I'm a parent and person who finds that the little logical fallacies-- even those that make some things easier emotionally-- tend to grate on me over time. I'd rather face the unvarnished truth and make some sense of it than retain my blissful ignorance, and the rest of my family is built upon similar lines.

    I'm not sure that it is a common feature of gifted people in general, but perhaps it is. I have to have a reason WHY I believe something.




    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by MsFriz
    A clueless teacher put Food Inc on at DS's school in place of recess one rainy afternoon. He was in 3rd grade at the time. Within a few minutes, enough kids were in tears that the teacher turned the movie off, but there was no reversing its effect on DS8. He came home RANTING breathlessly about factory farms and corporate greed that day and hasn't had a bite of meat since, even though many of his favorite foods had involved chicken or pork. He won't even eat meat that has been humanely raised, because the animal "still dies." He was the only kid in his class who was instantly converted, and he hasn't waffled since.
    Wow, I would imagine some serious complaints! I recall having to sign permission slips for my kids to watch anything other than G rated movies up through probably middle school.

    However, that's exactly the difference that dd is interested in getting at: your ds vs the other kids who, presumably also came from omni families. Something is presumably different in the kiddos who make massive lifestyle changes from exposure to things like Food Inc. vs those who see the same movie and who are possibly upset but who don't make lifestyle changes as a result. I really don't mean "better" and I think that is why this is so interesting to dd and me. We really don't agree with other veg*ns who think that there is something wrong with people who respond differently.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Then again, I'm a parent and person who finds that the little logical fallacies-- even those that make some things easier emotionally-- tend to grate on me over time. I'd rather face the unvarnished truth and make some sense of it than retain my blissful ignorance, and the rest of my family is built upon similar lines.

    I'm not sure that it is a common feature of gifted people in general, but perhaps it is. I have to have a reason WHY I believe something.

    I generally try to put *something* in the belief void, based on what I feel or intuitively expect.

    I adjust it later based on objective evidence/subjective experience, but I don't like starting with a null.

    I can also *unknow* what I put there and make it a null if that will get me to where I want to go.

    I think that the unknowing works better because you are expressly opening up a space, so there is conscious effort.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    I'm not sure that it is a common feature of gifted people in general, but perhaps it is. I have to have a reason WHY I believe something.

    Me too.

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    Originally Posted by Cricket2
    If anyone has any other ideas other than intelligence as to innate differences in an individual that might impact his/her choice to become veg*n (vegan or vegetarian), let me know. I may be bugging you all at some point to take an online survey too as dd wants to put one together and statistically analyze the data wink. She's taking AP Stats next year.

    What about examining Myers-Briggs types? I'd imagine that an SJ- who is concerned with societal rules would react differently from NFs or NTs who are much more likely to be concerned with their personally created moral compass.

    Oddly enough, each and every member of my family who has been identified as gifted has also been identified as either an NT or an NF. Given the rarity of both N types, I often wonder if their is a correlation between giftedness and Myers-Briggs types. And for the record, the NFs in my family seem to grapple more with meat issues than the NTs (my nephew in the early story being a definite NT).

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    ... and this is where I ask whether Myers-Briggs typing has validity in the first place.

    wink



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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    One question-- is it fundamentally cruelty?

    I think that familiarity probably plays an integral role there-- kids who have not ever seen animals from farm-to-plate probably feel that such an existence is inevitably cruelty.

    Kids who have seen it know that isn't inherently the case-- at least not from the animal's perspective. That, I think, is some mash-up of cognitive ability, empathy, and maturity-- the ability to take a non-human perspective like that. Which then means that we as humans have to decide whether or not we SHOULD feel guilty for eating animals, assuming that the animal probably doesn't much care either way, given a reasonably happy and humane existence otherwise.
    I think that this ultimately comes back to your earlier post. My phililosophical outlook is that all sentient creatures have something equivalent to what Christians would consider a soul and that, regardless of intellect, they have the desire to live and, as such, it is not my right to end their lives regardless of how humanely. In other words, the animal does care whether it lives or dies.

    For instance, I take a lot of my direction from quotes in the Dhammapada such as, "every living being fears death. Therefore, knowing this, feeling for others as for yourself, do not kill others or cause others to kill. Every living being fears being struck by a rod. Life being dear to all. Therefore, knowing this, feeling for others as for yourself, do not kill or cause others to kill.

    I do think that it is such a personal interpretation, though. For instance, one of George Bush's speech writers, who is devoutly Christian, wrote a book called Dominion in which he interprets the bible to instruct Christians to be vegetarian, whereas other Christians, I'm sure do not interpret the dominion over animals in the bible to mean that.

    It also is not a romantizication of the natural world and the way animals die there either in our instance. I live in a semi-rural area with a lot of foxes, raptors, and other preditors. I know that life and death in the natural world isn't pretty and easy. It is more that my path leads me toward minimizing my personal contribution to that suffering where I can.

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    Not all kids are (emotionally) capable of withstanding the acquisition of the data here, however. Some are, and some aren't. My DD doesn't like watching rabbits being butchered, but she's seen it and it hasn't had much impact on her relative enthusiasm for bunny enchiladas.

    My dh as well. His father was a butcher and he went to slaughter houses with him as a child and saw the live cows going in one end and the meat coming out the other. He saw his grandfather raise and kill rabbits. I wonder, actually, if exposure to things of that sort at an early age might have one of two effects on someone: becoming vegetarian or just seeing it as natural and not awful.

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    There is a component which is down to possible anthropomorphism versus pragmatism, as well. Few people truly see trout and border collies as being completely interchangeable on the sentience and cognition scale if they are familiar with both animals in a non-theoretical sense...

    Now, from a philosophical angle, I understand the argument that all sentient beings should have autonomy... but I don't overestimate the ability of a goldfish, nor underestimate the ability of a horse or goat. Rabbits are just not as intelligent as pigs, nor are they as thoughtful; ergo, while rabbits are just as deserving of respectful husbandry (and maybe MORE in need of parental care, in some ways, given their inability to care for themselves), I can eat them far more readily than a pig.
    I am quite familiar with the levels of intelligence of various animals. As I mentioned, I live in a semi-rural area. I've been around pigs, cows, sheep, and other farm animals a good bit. I volunteer at our local humane society where we have everything from pet type of animals to wildlife that are being rehabbed. For me, the level of intelligence of the animal makes no difference in its being, right to life, or desire to live. Heck, I even catch wasps in the house and put them outside! I know that they are not the same as my super smart herding dogs, but I would not kill them any more than I would view a developmentally disabled human as being less desiring of life than a genius.

    I'm truly not judging your different perspective, just trying to explain mine.

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    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    I'm not sure that it is a common feature of gifted people in general, but perhaps it is. I have to have a reason WHY I believe something.

    Me too.
    I do think that is a common trait in many gifted individuals. I believe that I've also seen studies that indicate that highly intelligent people are more likely to be atheist. I suspect that a similar premise is underlying: it is hard for us to simply accept something on faith without a reason why or some proof.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    questions about assumptions ("is that factually correct? Is it always true? Sometimes true? Unknown?") works especially well with HG people.

    [...]I'd rather face the unvarnished truth and make some sense of it than retain my blissful ignorance...

    SO with you on this... i have a total horror of being blinded by assumptions and therefore question EVERYTHING. i'm sure it's massively annoying to everyone around me - i know it drives my husband nuts, but it feels like the only way to truly live honourably.


    Every Sunday it brooded and lay on the floor. Inconveniently close to the drawing-room door.
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