Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion "Social issues"

I have been hoping my DS6 would have a grade skip next year (in Oz, the new year starts end of Jan). It looks like it could be possible except for some apparent "social issues". When I enquired about the exact issues, I was told my son has a lack of empathy; my son doesn't empathise with the struggles of his classmates that he is supposed to help!! A couple of the older kids have trouble with maths, so his teacher asks my boy to help them. He starts to help but gets frustrated (you know, his lack of a teaching degree makes it hard to teach) and doesn't want to help them anymore. This is an apparent lack of empathy.

There have only been three kids who have grade skipped in the past five years, and these kids have been advanced socially, as well as academically. My son has been hanging out with one boy because he has no friends and my son feels bad for him. I feel that that is empathetic. My son finds his age peers annoying, but has still managed to make many friends. But, my son does prefer older friends- and this is bad.

I'm wondering if the school is nitpicking to find an excuse. Admittedly, the school is considering the skip without any test results (purely based upon his teacher's reports), and they will actually pay for testing next term (!). I imagine they know my son will pass, so they probably want to have an excuse in place. No question, really. Just wanted to vent!

Squishys the tricky thing with social skills is - sometimes the child actually IS delayed, or at least not advanced socially, but sometimes they are MORE advanced socially/empathicly and gets misunderstood. For example a gifted child might cry when they hear about an earthquake because they have more understanding of the tragedy than their age peers - but the crying is seen as "immature" rather than "advanced understanding and empathy".

It's tricky.

It is tricky. I guess my son can be a bit self-involved, but I think that comes from being an only child for five years. He is very self-efficient, but he is great in a team (such as with basketball). It is hard for him, or any human being, to be friends with people who you have nothing in common with; his classmates step on his bag and playfully kick him in the shins, while he wants to play chess and read physics books. He needs older friends, but he makes friends with these kids because he feels he has to conform- and he has and that, to me, is being sociable. I find it ridiculous to have an attitude of: "you can't be in a class with older kids until you learn to be friends with younger kids who you'll never be friends with again, once you're in a class with older kids".

Squishy,

I agree with MON's post. Our ds, though he scored very high on the Iowa Acceleration Scale, also got points off for "social skills." And yet two of his three teachers, after they learned he was skipping 6th grade, made a point of telling us they think it's a great decision, in part because he's "so mature." So social maturity is too complex of an issue to make a decision based on one aspect, during one incident. Our ds gets impatient with his peers and yet is one of the most empathetic people I know.

I hope you gather your research and fight this with everything you have.

Wow, master of none! I very much enjoyed your rant, and I agree with it all. You have too much for me to respond to on my phone, but I definitely believe my son will do very well with a skip. It is, after all, only one year. I am also hoping that he will have acceleration in maths. My son is very mature, but a little standoff-ish with age peers. I love what you quoted about adults being friends with kids: why would a child with a nine year old mind want to be friends with a child with a year old mind?

And what you wrote about holding a child back, that is exactly what my mum said to me: are they going to fail him this year if he doesn't "grow up"? It is ridiculous. I would love to email the principal some links of the social benefits of skipping, particularly if they are imagining his lack of social skills.

Thanks, KADmom. I will fight it. I am sure they will skip him, because a lot of the other teachers support it, too. I think they are just trying to stir the pot while I wait.

ETA: My son plays with that boy because he feels bad, but he also wants to play soccer with another friend because he would like to make more friends. It doesn't sound like my son has issues, to me. I wonder where the principal gets her info?? Obviously my son's teacher has reported these issues, so I assume it is based upon the lack of interest in teaching (which is so laughable).

I meant that my son finds the other boys in his class annoying (such as, they kick the back of his feet when he's walking, or step on his pulley school bag, etc.). Yet he still makes friends with them because he has to. My son prefers older friends, as they are more mature and into mature interests, like chess, etc.

This other boy was in my son's class last year. They both played with another boy (who was my son's best friend), who has since changed schools. My son doesn't really like this boy because he is too boisterous. So, my son now wants to move on, but is sticking with his friend because the boy has no one else (not even in his actual class). My son wants to move on and be friends with other boys from his class, but feels guilty.

The school is unaware of the situation.

This is a classic case of making the victim look like the culprit.

At least the school acknowledges that my son is academically capable. It's just the social thing. I guess there's no denying the intelligence, so they have to find fault somewhere.

But it's the school that's creating the problems. They expect him to do the teacher's job. And they tolerate bullying.

I am going through a similar Hell myself with DD right now. It is difficult to do but I am trying to assume positive intent rather than obstructiveness on the part of the school. I am going to have to educate the educators it appears.

I am trying to avoid all out war with them because that would have more downside potential for my DD - a Pyrrhic victory would not help anyone. I just need some guidance and advice on the potential pitfalls. I do not want this to draw out until she cannot even qualify based on reduced achievements to get into a good private school if the public school intransigence proves steadfast.

This may sound paranoid, but....

The school has the highest (or in the top three) maths results in the state. I do wonder if they attract the gifted kids with promises, but then hold them back so the school can keep its record. You can't deny IQ scores or high achievement, but you can create a somewhat unprovable excuse.

And, yes, I am upset about my son having to teach the other kids. He shouldn't have to help anyone, it is certainly not his responsibility. And if I was the parent of the child having trouble with maths, I'd be furious to find out that the teacher is getting another kid to help!

Ah, but is it not the obligation of those with the most to help those with the least?

Noblesse oblige.

The school is simply encouraging him to accept the burden which is his to carry.

Some people, like your child, have so much more and, in fact, are so much more, that they can only find meaning in lifting up others, sacrificing their lives in service to others.

Are you not proud to have raised such a son? Does it not fill you with a warm glow as you think of him sacrificing his personal happiness to lift others out of the mire?

Everything MON said, for certain, and ...err... Jon as well, I think.

One thing about the frustration when helping the other kids -- DS10 has always loved to get up in front of the class and explain stuff to them, but when put to helping someone one-on-one, or working in a group with kids who are not at his level, he gets frustrated because he doesn't know what it's like to not know how to do the stuff. He can't understand why they don't get it. It just comes naturally to him, and it's like asking him to teach someone how to breathe. Where do you even start?

Let me add that when the school calls your son a bad person ("lack of empathy") because he doesn't live up to the totally unreasonable expectation of getting through to a slow learner when even the teachers can't, then the school itself is guilty of bullying, and they are the ones lacking empathy.

Also keep in mind that teachers are taught that "when mixed ability learners work together they both learn - but the more advanced one learns the most!". Which may be true, to a point, I'm told this is research based, but I am willing to bet this refers to children that both fall within the "normal" range for grade - ie there is a gap in ability, not a yawning chasm. You're cross that he's being used as a teaching aid, teacher probably sees it as providing maximum learning opportunity for YOUR son...

Yes!! This is my DD. Back in grade 2, her teacher told me that she is "very immature." The teacher meant well... I took no offense to it and thankfully was fully aware of this common misunderstanding. Still... it can be very tricky and frustrating.

This is something I feel very strongly about too. How can an academic institution prevent a child from learning because he doesn't behave how they think he should in certain situations. And maybe your son will always have trouble teaching people who grasp things less quickly than he does. This is a good reason for him not becoming a teacher but not a reason for limiting his intellectual growth. And maybe he is always going to find his age peers boring and trivial - so spending more time with them is not going to help. Anyway all the best if Aussie is anything like NZ you will need it.

Thanks for everyone's advice! Sooooo, what now? I agree that it is unafair to hold him back for these reasons, but what can I do? Can I just collect a bunch of information to prove the school wrong? Are they allowed to do this, just because of imaginary social issues? If I prove that my son has the appropriate amount of empathy and human feelings, can they legally still reject the request?

This is very school system specific.

Can you find other people who have been through this with their kids and find out how they dealt with it?

Squishys I think it's principle's discretion and then you take it to the education department if you disagree. However, the school should be getting a department psych involved and there's a reasonable chance of them backing you up. I wouldn't want the school psych doing an assessment, but most people I know who've taken a report to school and the school has then called in the department psych have had a fairly decent experience.

We are waiting for this process for our DD, the school knows that the skip we did 18 months ago is no longer enough, but they want their own professional to tell them what to do, not me. The principle herself has said the psych is being called in to advise whether to plan another skip or what else to do instead over time.

Good luck, and don't panic!

I don't know anyone IRL who has gone through this, JonLaw.

Mumofthree, the school will be using the Slosson and RPM next term; I don't know if this person testing is a psychologist, they simply describe her as " the person who does testing". I don't know if these tests can be given by someone who isn't a psych...

Hopefully, this tester can give other opinions (on the social thing) and everything will be okay. If not, then I guess I will have to get my own report. I'm trying to avoid extra costs, as the tuition is quite costly.

I had plenty of empathy as a child and was more mature than my age mates. But I had zero patience with kids I was supposed to help. As a child I simply could not understand how is it possible they "didn't get it!" when it was so easy? I didn't learn to have that patience with other people who were slower learners until I was in my late 20s / early 30s. Even teachers don't always have that patience. How can they expect it from a little kid?

Exactly. They shouldn't expect it, and they know that. It needs to be made clear that squishys' son is being bullied by school personnel to concoct an excuse for preventing academic advancement.

Thanks, everyone. I know my boy has empathy, at least since he was four he could empathise with cartoon characters just by their sad facial expressions. He also likes to make donations to charity, etc. I think he is just a little self-absorbed. He usually has great patience, especially with having a baby brother, but at school he has more important things to do. He is aware that school is his time to learn, so he probably doesn't want to have to teach. I understand that it can be a good learning tool, but it shouldn't be a deciding factor in his acceleration.

Squishys, I believe you need to be approved/lisenced to do those tests but not necessarily a psychologist. I thought he was in a public school, so my advice is not relevant - private schools don't use department psychs and can do whatever they please basically.

We had our kids at a very high end private school and they were exceptional at picking up my 2e child's issues (when I say picking up we were instructed to take her to an OT and a psych and come back with reports which they then enthusiastically applied). With my HG child they were far less helpful as we were the ones that initiated the process, so even though we had reports, they were less helpful about following the professional advice - because they hadn't identified the issue and asked for the professional instructions...

My son is in a public school. By tuition, I meant for the private tutor he sees.