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    Originally Posted by Portia
    Oh - my apologies. I spaced on the religious aspects. Since the comment has been quoted, can I remove the suggestion from the quotes?

    No worries at all. Advice and suggestions are definitely all accepted with an open mind and in the spirit with which they are offered. smile

    We are Atheists, it's true-- but our DD is not, though she leans non-theistic in her eclectic worldview.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    I do have some sense that this is about existential angst/depression and some sense of isolation due to being PG, plus that general disconnectedness that many adolescents feel (and which seems to be something of a developmental thing).

    In Dabrowskian terms, I'd say this is a disintegration in progress.

    Not sure what to do about it, however, or how to offer her any guidance. Not even sure that a mental health professional would have very good guidance if I'm right about causation.

    The Zen suggestion is a good one. I think that I know precisely what that means, actually... wink But I'm Taoist in philosophy and have been for decades, so Zen often makes a great deal of sense to me.

    I think that guided meditation, Zen (or related) quotes/philosophy, and art-therapy (again, the DIY variety where DD retains autonomy of the process) might be a good way to approach things with her.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    I think that guided meditation, Zen (or related) quotes/philosophy, and art-therapy (again, the DIY variety where DD retains autonomy of the process) might be a good way to approach things with her.

    Well, I suppose that she could also try a vision quest.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_quest

    However, I can't say that I *recommend* extremely unique fasting-induced experiences.

    I'm probably the only person who has ever *accidentally* done this.

    However, I can certainly now understand why native Americans did this. Because it apparently does work. Not that I could do it again, even if my life depended on it.

    Kids: Don't try this at home.

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    HowlerKarma --

    I'm a little late on this thread. Have you made any progress with sorting through all of this?

    I logged on today to see if there were any recent threads regarding existential angstiness or depression, and this conversation caught my eye.

    My take, fwiw: When you're around 13, the need to fit in and belong takes center stage. It overtakes all the other variables. When you're outside the norm intellectually, you're already set up to feel your "differentness" acutely. It can be painful. So, maybe you flop around from one group to another, trying on identities to search out that sense of belonging your psyche craves so strongly. Maybe you blame your otherness on being gifted, so you try to deny it a little bit.

    My experience: I was one of the two smartest kids in my grade throughout elementary school. When I hit the end of fourth grade, it became socially detrimental. In sixth grade, a classmate told me that when I got a B on a math test, it made me seem more human and normal, and he was nice to me. A lightbulb went on! In seventh grade, a six year experiment in personal social engineering began.

    I tried: going with boys two grades younger, going with a high school dropout, hanging out with the "freaks", hanging out with my creepy grown-up fast food manager, hanging out with the "brains", hanging out with the skaters, getting really, really drunk.....all while maintaining honor roll status despite my best efforts. I'm not sure if there is anything a well-meaning adult could have done or said to alter this course --- although perhaps that vision quest may have helped.

    In the end, I returned to my roots. I accepted my geeky nature and settled down and produced geeky offspring of my own. And the cycle continues...

    I wish you all the best in helping your daughter through this interesting and tumultuous time in her life.

    Kitty

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    GLK, I think this is probably not the kind of problem which can be solved over a long weekend or anything, and we have even more evidence that she is doing some experimenting (?? at least that is what we hope that it is) with other maladaptive coping.

    Her crowd runs into variety as well-- the geek/nerd kids (she basically has close friendships with the top 0.5% of yesterday's graduating high school class), the gamer/emo crowd, and the social rejects, I guess I'd call them. That latter descriptor, by the way, is lovingly intended, as I hung with that group a lot of my high school career, too.

    Anyway-- perfectionism + abuse + emo culture...

    toxic cocktail, pretty much. Her girlfriend apparently has reported "cutting" behavior to her mom, which she then reported to ME. I thanked her, and I wasn't terribly surprised, but I've not seen evidence that it is a significant issue, more of a sporadic/exploratory thing, if that makes sense.

    So I've opened a non-confrontational dialogue with her about it, using proxy constructs in order to keep her from HIDING the behavior (which we obviously do not want).

    Keeping her busy definitely seems to help.


    I still can't quite figure out how it all fits together, though-- how much is genuinely endogenous versus how much is a response to external forces.

    Being 14 really is awful, isn't it? I had repressed it, or maybe just hoped that my memories of this point were warped.


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    HowlerKarma,

    just about everything your daughter is experiencing I endured as well--along with the unimaginably humiliating "Lord of the Flies" rejection scene. It still hurts like hell, but one day your daughter will understand that she is doing nothing wrong. Her nature as a PG individual WILL make her stand out and make it harder to fit in with the rest of the crowds in HS. I did the experimenting as well due to depression, along with excessive school-skipping. It is good that you are facing and addressing this problem with you DD now though.

    I PROMISE you things will get better.


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    Extra thoughts:

    1. your daughter will not have to deal with the metaphorical "cannibalism" present in "Lord of the Flies" if she can realize that "fitting in" pales in comparison to other things in life--i.e. self-fulfillment, research projects, meeting a significant other who understands you, etc.

    2. She will thank you one day, and she will come back to her ordinary self in time. It's part of the identity vs. role confusion stage.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Her girlfriend apparently has reported "cutting" behavior to her mom, which she then reported to ME. I thanked her, and I wasn't terribly surprised, but I've not seen evidence that it is a significant issue, more of a sporadic/exploratory thing, if that makes sense.

    Cutters are generally "annoying" to me, as opposed to being a serious, disabling, problem. Generally, that's the least of the problems with the people I deal with.

    It's just a stupid way to cope as far as I can tell.

    Last edited by JonLaw; 06/16/13 11:18 AM.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Originally Posted by aquinas
    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    I suspect this particular problem/issue is exogenous and not endogenous.

    Well phrased.

    Indeed.

    Dude, I know exactly what you're saying there.

    I was the female version of you, apparently. wink Let's just say that you're not wrong about the female experience being profoundly different. (Scary thoughts for parents of girls, trust me...)

    DD's trauma at the hands of an older peer seems to have put tendrils into that realm and made her terrified of... well, something.

    Gosh, I sure wish that she were willing to work with a professional here. I worry terribly about her coping skills. It's a lot to manage for anyone, much less someone already trying to manage adolescence with a huge degree of asynchrony.

    We worry that her socially-prescribed perfectionism lends itself all-too readily to maladaptive coping mechanisms. Guess I need to put my thinking cap on again and suggest a greater variety of positive coping skills. Home-brewed CBT, if you will.

    Hello HowlerKarma,

    I have been reading this thread with great interest. I am a 31-year-old PG male (identified as an adult), currently finishing my doctorate in clinical psychology with an emphasis in neuropsychology.

    In reading about your DD, I couldn't help but feel the need to throw in my own two cents, as I happen to be both PG and gay. First, your DD may or may not be truly gay. From what I have gathered, this very well may be experimentation or a reaction to that interpersonal trauma with the older boy. On the other hand, it is not outside the realm of possibility that this is truly who she is. Just as the experience of being PG can be profoundly alienating, so can the experience of being gay. Being both PG and gay can send an adolescent straight into an abyss.

    I wish that my parents had acknowledged who I was when I was your DD's age and had assured me that being gay was perfectly acceptable. (You may have already done this with her.) Instead, my parents tried to subtly and kindly steer me away from it. I could acutely feel that they were hoping it was just a phase, which was very painful and rejecting despite their loving intentions.

    The good news is that if she is in fact not gay, she will realize this in time. Your reassurance about being gay will in no way solidify a gay identity in her if she is not biologically wired to be so. On the other hand, if she truly is gay, your reassurance and acceptance will mean the world to her. So, in my opinion, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by openly addressing this with her and reassuring her.

    I realize that this advice was unsolicited, and I hope that I have not offended you.

    Best Wishes.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Being 14 really is awful, isn't it? I had repressed it, or maybe just hoped that my memories of this point were warped.

    Awful indeed! Seeing your child go through this age is Hard.

    Do you mean that your daughter is cutting, or is it her girlfriend? For most kids who experiment with it, it usually runs its course after just a few incidents.

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