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    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    The drop-out rate (46% fail to graduate within 6 years) is the really scary part, and IMO, is where the chipper "Everyone can go to college!" line really falls down and start to look downright irresponsible.

    Why is it irresponsible?

    If you have the power to originate a massive amount of debt, aren't you obligated to your shareholders to lard up as many people as possible with non-dischargeable debt?

    I mean, the megabanks aren't charities.

    They have a business to run.

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    The debt numbers for most college students don't look bad to me:
    http://www.asa.org/policy/resources/stats/

    [quote]
    •As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301. About one-quarter of borrowers owe more than $28,000; 10% of borrowers owe more than $54,000; 3% owe more than $100,000; and less than 1%, or 167,000 people, owe more than $200,000.

    Personally, I find the numbers on that page to be very bad.

    For example, the numbers you quoted are an average for ALL age groups. According to that same site, the 30-39 age group has $307 billion in student loans, and the under 30s have $292 billion. So that's 60% of a one-trillion-dollar debt being carried by people under 40. And remember that some of these loans balloon because people can't even afford to pay the interest each month.

    And the implication is that more than 25% of the under 40s have more than your $28K in debt.

    Sounds pretty scary to me.

    Originally Posted by Bostonian's link
    As of October 2012, the average amount of student loan debt for the Class of 2011 was $26,600, a 5 percent increase from approximately $25,350 in 2010.

    I wonder how much that number went up for members of the class of 2013.

    The site also says that 14% of all borrowers are behind on at least one loan (that's 5.4 million people).

    It also says that ~37% of federal borrowers between 2004 and 2009 managed to make timely payments without postponing payments or becoming delinquent. How many of that 37% were living on the edge but managing to make payments? How many had to choose between something important (high quality food, turning the heat on, etc.) and making a loan payment? How many had private loans that they couldn't keep up with?

    Again, sounds pretty scary to me.

    All in all, these numbers (and there are more on that page) sound big enough to have a serious effect on the economy.

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    Originally Posted by Val
    All in all, these numbers (and there are more on that page) sound big enough to have a serious effect on the economy.

    They *do* have a serious effect.

    They're called "debt serfs".

    Ideally, you want to own as many as possible because they generate passive income over their lifetimes.

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    @Jonlaw...

    {SNORK}


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    The drop-out rate (46% fail to graduate within 6 years) is the really scary part, and IMO, is where the chipper "Everyone can go to college!" line really falls down and start to look downright irresponsible.

    http://politic365.com/2013/01/24/college-dropout-rate-called-national-crisis-in-new-report/

    Then there are all the creepy for-profit schools with stratospheric drop-out rates. These places are the educational equivalent of payday loans and rent-to-own. I knew someone who needed a BA to advance at work and go up a pay grade. She got one from a sketchy, weird diploma mill that turned out to not be fully accredited. Money down the drain.

    I hope there is a special place in Hell for those that set people up that don't have the smarts, maturity or executive functioning to be successful in college just so they can rack up the interest payments.

    The mainstream kind of 'never thinking beyond the first good looking move' liberals [read the stupid ones] will hate me for saying this but college is not for everyone. It is supposed to be a place where the brighter people go to delve more deeply into Knowledge. It shouldn't be a place where EVERYONE has to go just to get a halfway decent shot at a job.


    Become what you are
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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    It is supposed to be a place where the brighter people go to delve more deeply into Knowledge.

    Has college ever been like that in the United States?

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    I hope there is a special place in Hell for those that set people up that don't have the smarts, maturity or executive functioning to be successful in college just so they can rack up the interest payments.

    I would be satisfied with a special place in prison. You know: one that involves sharing a room with a dude referred to as Thag or Monster.

    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    ...college is not for everyone. It is supposed to be a place where the brighter people go to delve more deeply into Knowledge. It shouldn't be a place where EVERYONE has to go just to get a halfway decent shot at a job.

    I agree.

    For clarity: this problem isn't the fault of the students. They aren't driving this mess. Educators, politicians, colleges, and employers are all contributing to it when they happily bleat that a BA is a magical ticket for any and all holders to enter bright-shiny-future-land.

    Yeah, right. Tell that to the people with BAs in Journalism, [insert program name] Studies, etc. who are working as security guards (their BAs didn't get them that job; an inexpensive certification did) or at Starbucks.

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    Hear-hear. I might even be reasonably happy with just turning a troupe of Howler Monkeys loose inside their homes as a pleasant and diverting surprise.


    The most disheartening thing EVER to hear as a college faculty member was a failing student who couldn't answer the question "Why are you here? What is your purpose in pursuing a college education?"

    I kept kleenex in my office for those students.

    Things like that are why I can't quite keep my blood pressure down where it ought to be without, on some level, believing that karma IS real.





    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    It is supposed to be a place where the brighter people go to delve more deeply into Knowledge.

    Has college ever been like that in the United States?

    Well, no. Of course not. Unless one assumes that everyone who is brighter is wealthy-- and that NOBODY who is low-income is that bright to begin with.


    If one goes with that assumption, however, everything was fine until about 1980.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by Val
    Yeah, right. Tell that to the people with BAs in Journalism, [insert program name] Studies, etc. who are working as security guards (their BAs didn't get them that job; an inexpensive certification did) or at Starbucks.

    But their minds were opened and they are now in a position to function as solid citizens in the global financial hypereconomy.

    Everybody should have a quality education in this day and age, so that they can guide public policy through the voting booth.

    Also, do you want to deprive the Starbucks barista of daydreaming of differential equations and latin prose while she foamifies the six dollar sugary foamy coffee thingy?

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    Actually, my belief in karma also goes a long way to explaining why in spite of chemical warfare on them over a period of decades, cockroaches don't seem to be suffering from population decreases.

    wink

    Maybe we can have them shack up with Thag and Monster in this lifetime before doing a little samba to La Cucaracha in the next. Now that would be poetic justice. Which is more than poetry majors are getting out of things working as WalMart greeters.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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