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    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Originally Posted by Val
    It's like Bostonian said: they go analyze your income, assets (except your primary residence these days) and savings to see how much they can gouge you.

    Well, that's because the schools are caught up in an arms race of their own. They're willing to pay for certain students from the endowment, because they'll raise the academic rankings of the school. For the rest, they have to gouge them so they can continue building new buildings, unnecessary amenities, etc., in order to compete in the recruiting race.

    So basically, rankings is how college got ruined for everyone.

    Yay competition.

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    I don't think it's as much "opponents" as it is "enemies" or "existential threats".

    After all, there is only one winner.


    Not when there are 21 valedictorians!!

    Soon everyone will be number one! And the educrats will at last be able to claim VICTORY in the war against unequal outcomes. laugh laugh laugh




    I mean, at least until the valedictorians take placement tests in college. frown But surely, that is someone else's fault and problem.

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    Originally Posted by dude
    Well, that's because the schools are caught up in an arms race of their own. They're willing to pay for certain students from the endowment, because they'll raise the academic rankings of the school. For the rest, they have to gouge them so they can continue building new buildings, unnecessary amenities, etc., in order to compete in the recruiting race.

    So basically, rankings is how college got ruined for everyone.

    Yay competition.

    Exactly. I don't think it's a coincidence that the cost of college began to skyrocket (per Bloomberg) just after the first College Rankings were published by US News and World Report in 1983.

    Last edited by herenow; 06/03/13 08:36 PM.
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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by herenow
    Originally Posted by Dude
    Well, that's because the schools are caught up in an arms race of their own. They're willing to pay for certain students from the endowment, because they'll raise the academic rankings of the school. For the rest, they have to gouge them so they can continue building new buildings, unnecessary amenities, etc., in order to compete in the recruiting race.

    So basically, rankings is how college got ruined for everyone.

    Yay competition.

    Exactly. I don't think it's a coincidence that the cost of college began to skyrocket (per Bloomberg) just after the first College Rankings were published by US News and World Report in 1983.

    I remember those cost increases. I was in college in the mid-80s. I don't what role the rankings played, but I do know that roughly half of the "elite" colleges had created a de facto syndicate back then. They had annual meetings aimed at fixing prices. I am not making this up. It was a big scandal; here's a summary of the investigation.

    Not long before that, people my age had started to complain about the cost of a college education becoming unaffordable and student loan burdens. I also remember that as a group, we were accused of acting entitled because those older than us had "paid their way" by working summer jobs and we were just a bunch of lazy whiners. Yeah right. The year I started, total costs were 12-13K at my college and they jumped 7-10% every year. Like a summer job and work study are going to pay those bills. I don't think so.

    See also the Unified College Cost thread. Student loan debt start increasing rapidly when they reformed the bankruptcy laws in 2005.

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    Exactly-- I was also in college in those years, and I tried to "work" my way through. I worked full time, effectively-- 36-40 hr weeks-- and it still wasn't enough to keep me off of food stamps or from requiring loans and qualifying for Pell grants.

    I also recall feeling so helpless when, during my fourth year as an undergrad, I had to get loans for the second time. But I didn't have much choice. Tuition had doubled in just four years. Doubled.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    The debt numbers for most college students don't look bad to me:
    http://www.asa.org/policy/resources/stats/

    Quote
    •As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301. About one-quarter of borrowers owe more than $28,000; 10% of borrowers owe more than $54,000; 3% owe more than $100,000; and less than 1%, or 167,000 people, owe more than $200,000. (Source: FRBNY)

    •Among all bachelor's degree recipients, median debt was about $7,960 at public four-year institutions, $17,040 at private not-for-profit four-year institutions, and $31,190 at for-profit institutions. (Source: College Board)
    According to http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjourn...ads-earn-85-more-than-those-without.html college graduates earn about $20K more per year than high school graduates, so most college graduates should be able to amortize their debt in a few years. The lifetime earnings differential is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    I still think college is too expensive, but that is based on total spending by parents, taxpayers, and students, not looking at student debt alone.



    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    Bostonian: The missing piece of the data is how much the parents have gone into hock. This only accounts for student debt.

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    Doesn't that also assume that the input value there for "income as a high school graduate" is equal to "living wages" as well?

    Presuming that HSGI + 20K = ability to make $1000/mo payments on student loans is a bit of a stretch for me personally.

    That is particularly so when one considers that not even disability (through accidental injury or illness) or failure to complete a degree-- both of which nullify the earning power of a college diploma-- are sufficient to discharge the debt.

    This also fails to account for other forms of debt. As Dude notes, parent loans have been rising even faster than traditionally backed student loan burdens have. Credit card debt has also risen sharply in this cohort (something that I find so sad and astonishing that I simply lack words).


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    The drop-out rate (46% fail to graduate within 6 years) is the really scary part, and IMO, is where the chipper "Everyone can go to college!" line really falls down and start to look downright irresponsible.

    http://politic365.com/2013/01/24/college-dropout-rate-called-national-crisis-in-new-report/

    Then there are all the creepy for-profit schools with stratospheric drop-out rates. These places are the educational equivalent of payday loans and rent-to-own. I knew someone who needed a BA to advance at work and go up a pay grade. She got one from a sketchy, weird diploma mill that turned out to not be fully accredited. Money down the drain.

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    Although it's fair to note that "some college" is better than HS diploma for earning power, though not a lot better.

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