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    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    For starters I think that the 'ability' to think critically is innate.

    I disagree. I think it's a learned ability, especially because there are strong social disadvantages to critical thinking, particularly for the very young. "Shut up and do what you're told!"

    If it wasn't something to learn, we wouldn't have had people writing books on logic and rhetoric in classical times.

    We teach our DD critical thinking through occasional ridiculous explanations her questions. This has had unexpected consequences... we've received the, "That's not real!" response when describing dinosaurs and the solar system.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    [quote=madeinuk]We teach our DD critical thinking through occasional ridiculous explanations her questions. This has had unexpected consequences... we've received the, "That's not real!" response when describing dinosaurs and the solar system.

    In today's metaphysical lesson we learn that critical thinking has some drawbacks with respect to acquiring knowledge in general.

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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Much higher education in the U.S. is a waste of time and money at the aggregate level, but at the *individual* level, the BA credential still has considerable value, because employers use it as a filter. It's an educational arms race that one is almost compelled to participate in.

    It's not a waste of money.

    It's a great source of tax revenue because they pay it back with interest!

    "Business has been good for the federal government when it comes to student loans.

    Over the past five years, student loans have generated profits of $120 billion for the Department of Education.

    And the latest projections from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) put the take from student loans for the 2013 fiscal year at $48.6 billion - helped along by a change in 2010 that eliminated the middleman and made the Education Department the direct lender for all government-backed loans.

    It means the government will reap more in profits from student loans this year than any of the nation's largest corporations. Last year, for example, the most profitable company was ExxonMobil (NYSE: XOM), which reported income of $44.9 billion.

    The money is rolling in partly because the Education Department has stepped up efforts to collect on delinquent loans, but mostly because the U.S. government can borrow money far more cheaply than the students to whom it is giving the loans.

    The government's student loans now carry an interest rate of 3.4%, which has proved plenty lucrative.

    But unless Congress acts soon, the interest rate on government student loans will double to 6.8% as of July 1. (The temporary 3.4% rate was supposed to expire last July, but last year Congress extended it for one year.)"

    http://moneymorning.com/2013/05/16/how-student-loans-became-a-120-billion-government-bonanza/

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    I'll agree that there are strong social disadvantages to critical thinking.

    And the place where those disadvantages exert their strongest influence is the very place where they ought not to - a modern American university campus.


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    Originally Posted by Dude
    That's entirely individual, isn't it? Bostonian has made clear that he views education solely through the lens of cost and direct financial benefit.
    I don't. We pay for things such as art, piano and tennis lessons that cannot be justified by financial benefit. However, the teachers charge us reasonable rates that they also charge others, because they don't ask for our financial data to see how much we can be gouged. When someone wants to charge me $240K (the full-pay price for four years of some colleges), yes I think hard about the financial benefit. Most parents do.



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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    We pay for things such as art, piano and tennis lessons that cannot be justified by financial benefit. However, the teachers charge us reasonable rates that they also charge others, because they don't ask for our financial data to see how much we can be gouged. When someone wants to charge me $240K (the full-pay price for four years of some colleges), yes I think hard about the financial benefit. Most parents do.

    Yeah, that about summarizes my thinking on this question. Multiply that number by three kids (the youngest of whom is only 8), and then increase it by 10-15% if costs keep increasing like they have been, and I don't like those numbers. I don't like them at UC either. UC's numbers are lower, but not by much compared to 20 years ago and maybe not for long.

    I ask myself if 8 classes over the course of 8 months, a shared dorm room and some institutional food are really worth $60,000. I ask myself if an equivalent education can be had for less (say, in Europe or Canada). My husband and I both attended colleges and universities in Europe for next to nothing. We both got excellent educations and we're both very employable.

    I spent three years at a US liberal arts college. My primary degree is in history, but I minored in chemistry and then did two graduate degrees in biology. I understand the value of the humanities and the perspective that education gave me. I'm not advocating a college-as-certification position. I'm also not arguing that a brand name college is worth the cost for a degree in engineering but not history. I'm questioning the value of any degree that costs a quarter million dollars and climbing. There are other options.

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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Originally Posted by Dude
    That's entirely individual, isn't it? Bostonian has made clear that he views education solely through the lens of cost and direct financial benefit.
    I don't. We pay for things such as art, piano and tennis lessons that cannot be justified by financial benefit. However, the teachers charge us reasonable rates that they also charge others, because they don't ask for our financial data to see how much we can be gouged. When someone wants to charge me $240K (the full-pay price for four years of some colleges), yes I think hard about the financial benefit. Most parents do.

    Some being the key word in "some colleges," yes. It's a free market. You can always take your money elsewhere. If you're convinced that the cache of a $240k university is worth the expense, that's your choice.

    Otherwise, I suggest you hold tight, because evidence is mounting that the tuition bubble is popping: http://www.businessinsider.com/college-bubble-has-burst-2013-5

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    I agree with Bostonian. Although at the rate of tuition acceleration, I am estimating 150K per year in 8 years for an top college. And I definitely wouldn't pay that for a liberal arts college. No way would that be justified.

    We have all seen the press on the cost of college and salaries expected upon graduation. If I was buying a car or a stove, I would think about what I need it for, how long is going to be worthwhile, how much does it cost, compared it to others. I look at going to a liberal arts college like buying a Porshe. If you have the luxury of not caring about the outcome after, good for you. I am totally recommending an engineering degree for DD. I don't care what she ends up doing. You can use that degree for anything. But if she can't figure it out, she can always get a job.

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    Originally Posted by Wren
    I agree with Bostonian. Although at the rate of tuition acceleration, I am estimating 150K per year in 8 years for an top college.
    That looks high. College costs have been rising faster than inflation by about 2 to 5% a year. Assuming a general inflation rate of 2% and college inflation rate of 7%, the $60K cost today would grow "only" to $60000 * (1.07^8) = $103,091 . A college inflation rate of 5% (slightly higher than recent college inflation) results in a future annual cost of $88,647. Here is some data from the College Board.

    http://advocacy.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/college-pricing-2012-full-report_0.pdf

    Trends in College Pricing, 2012

    PUBLISHED TUITION AND FEE AND
    ROOM AND BOARD CHARGES
    Average published tuition and fees for in‑state
    students at public four‑year colleges and
    universities increased from $8,256 in 2011‑12
    to $8,655 in 2012‑13. The 4.8% ($399) increase
    in tuition and fees was accompanied by a
    $325 (3.7%) increase in room and board charges
    for students living on campus. At $9,205, room
    and board charges account for more than half of
    the total charges for these students.
    • Average published tuition and fees for out-of-state students at
    public four-year institutions rose by $883 (4.2%), from $20,823 in
    2011-12 to $21,706 in 2012-13. Average total charges are $30,911.
    • Average published tuition and fees at private nonprofit
    four-year institutions rose by $1,173 (4.2%), from $27,883 to
    $29,056 in 2012-13. Average total charges are $39,518.
    • Average published tuition and fees at public two-year colleges
    increased by $172 (5.8%), from $2,959 in 2011-12 to $3,131 in
    2012-13.
    • Estimated average tuition and fees for full-time students in the
    for-profit sector increased by about $435 (3.0%), from $14,737
    in 2011-12 to $15,172 in 2012-13.
    • Published prices at public four-year institutions rose more
    rapidly between 2002-03 and 2012-13 than over either of
    the two preceding decades, but the average annual rate
    of increase in inflation-adjusted tuition and fees at private
    nonprofit four-year institutions declined from 4.6% from
    1982-83 to 1992-93, to 3.0% from 1992-93 to 2002-03, and
    to 2.4% over the most recent decade

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    My wife and I do have Tiger Parent tendencies, but this article shows that there are other routes to success:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/t...hool-to-get-serious-about-start-ups.html
    Before Tumblr, Founder Made Mom Proud. He Quit School.
    By JENNA WORTHAM and NICK BILTON
    New York Times
    May 20, 2013

    Quote
    When David Karp was 14, he was clearly a bright teenager. Quiet, somewhat reclusive, bored with his classes at the Bronx High School of Science. He spent most of his free time in his bedroom, glued to his computer.

    But instead of trying to pry him away from his machine or coaxing him outside to get some fresh air, his mother, Barbara Ackerman, had another solution: she suggested that he drop out of high school to be home-schooled.

    “I saw him at school all day and absorbed all night into his computer,” said Ms. Ackerman, reached by phone Monday afternoon. “It became very clear that David needed the space to live his passion. Which was computers. All things computers.”

    Clearly.

    Now 26 years old, Mr. Karp never finished high school or enrolled in college. Instead, he played a significant role in several technology start-ups before founding Tumblr, the popular blogging service that agreed to be sold to Yahoo for $1.1 billion this week. With an expected $250 million from the deal, Mr. Karp joins a tiny circle of 20-something entrepreneurs, hoodie-wearing characters like Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg and Foursquare’s Dennis Crowley, who have struck it rich before turning 30.
    On average, of course, high school dropouts are less successful than high school graduates, who are less successful than college graduates. How much freedom to give to teenagers is an interesting question.


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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