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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    What Deedee said. True; I could have written more sensitively. Culturally different? Alienating? Bewildering? I think any young person is going to find it somewhat hard going when dropped into an environment with a high proportion of people whose life experiences are nothing like theirs. This can cut in all kinds of ways. However, when these people also have more power and wealth than you, I think it's harder. (Example B: I'm also a bit concerned about my DS5 going to school with quite a lot of very poor kids, come this fall. However, he has a lot of privilege by comparison, so the concerns are somewhat different, and lesser.)

    In an extremely privileged environment like Yale, I'd feel concerned about my kids not being aware of certain unwritten rules, not having certain experiences that are typical for the wealthy, etc. I would add that if people are judging them by this they probably kind of suck anyway, but it may still matter to my children. I don't think my kids are likely to end up on the Ivy path anyway, but I don't know this for sure. They aren't lacking in ability or drive.


    ETA: Am I worried that my kids will be assaulted by rich kids? Hmm. I suppose not really. I worry about d*ckhead date rapists with a privilege mentality, but you can meet those guys at State U.
    I think the book I Am Charlotte Simmons gets at this--fiction but he did lots of research and captures it well, IMO:
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/231.I_am_Charlotte_Simmons

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    Why American Colleges Are Becoming a Force for Inequality

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    High-income students account for about a third of the high-achieving students graduating from high school (see graph above). But estimates suggest that 74 percent of students at the top 146 top colleges came from the richest quartile of households.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Why American Colleges Are Becoming a Force for Inequality

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    High-income students account for about a third of the high-achieving students graduating from high school (see graph above). But estimates suggest that 74 percent of students at the top 146 top colleges came from the richest quartile of households.

    Richest quartile isn't "rich".

    It isn't even UMC.

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    Experiences like DeeDee's are not limited to wealth issues. I was one of a handful of Mexican kids attending an elite west coast liberal arts school back in the late 80's. I was from a LMC family. I did not speak Spanish. I recall very clearly being somewhat ostracized by the other Mexican students on this basis. I couldn't participate in any of the conversations that were in Spanish, which were many. I also did not share some of the background experiences that many of them did. I don't know if they treated me as "inferior" but I inferred from their comments that I wasn't "like them". This experiences led me to abandon my attempts to be active in the diversity-based groups in college, for which I blame myself.

    It was the same thing in law school but I had learned to handle it better because I was older and realized it was all part of life. Good thing, too, because once I started practicing law, the numbers of female Mexican lawyers I encountered was pretty miniscule so I bond with nearly all that I meet, Spanish-speaking or not.

    FWIW, on the wealth issue, my two best friends from college consisted of one trust fund baby (literally) who had been born into poor economic circumstances and who is smart as a whip and one gal who grew up in rural Indiana who is also smart as a whip. Both appreciated who I was inside and out and I returned the favor.

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    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    Originally Posted by Dude
    Why American Colleges Are Becoming a Force for Inequality

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    High-income students account for about a third of the high-achieving students graduating from high school (see graph above). But estimates suggest that 74 percent of students at the top 146 top colleges came from the richest quartile of households.

    Richest quartile isn't "rich".

    It isn't even UMC.

    I agree. Even quintiles would have been a better statistical measure, though not by much.

    But the figures do illustrate how middle and lower class high achievers are being left out.

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    Maybe it's just me. But I'm getting a whiff of resentment in this thread, especially as regards not wanting one's children to associate with the "rich." I agree with Bostonian's last point.


    Also, how do you feel when others get resentful because your kid is "rich" in IQ points and is "smarter than god" as far as they're concerned? And how do you feel when people don't want to associate with your kid because of this impression?

    It really bothers me when people focus on one wrong and conveniently ignore parallel ones. Sorry to say something that's going to sting, but if you complain about one kind of injustice (e.g. judging gifted kids based on preconceptions about them) but then make similar sweeping judgments about something else ("rich kids"), you show that you're no different from the people you complain about. And IMO, this kind of narrow thinking doesn't help solve problems. It just perpetuates them! smile

    Last edited by Val; 05/16/13 11:58 AM. Reason: Clarity
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    Maybe moral terpitude isn't associated with SES in any statistically significant manner. On either side.

    I do think that DeeDee's point is well-made, however. It is an important thing to bear in mind, but that doesn't mean that it begins only at post-secondary. The same thing happens in elite private prep-schools which have scholarship admissions based on need.






    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by Val
    Maybe it's just me. But I'm getting a whiff of resentment in this thread, especially as regards not wanting one's children to associate with the "rich." I agree with Bostonian's last point.


    Also, how do you feel when others get resentful because your kid is "rich" in IQ points and is "smarter than god" as far as they're concerned? And when you get the impression that people don't want to associate with your kid because of this impression?

    It really bothers me when people focus on one wrong and conveniently ignore parallel ones. Sorry to say something that's going to sting, but if you complain about one kind of injustice (e.g. judging gifted kids based on preconceptions about them) but then make similar sweeping judgments about something else ("rich kids"), you show that you're no different from the people you complain about. And IMO, this kind of narrow thinking doesn't help solve problems. It just perpetuates them! smile

    I can only speak for myself. My kids do associate with (nice) rich kids--I am not judging rich kids (or adults). I like to get to know people before I form opinions about them. Some of my friends who have trust funds are the hardest working people I know, they have high expectations for their kids and don't make excuses when their kids fail (or cheat). They don't throw money at them and teach them to be responsible. But I have also seen, with my own eyes, how spoiled, entitled, wealthy college students behave, in the classroom and out of it, and I would strongly encourage my children to avoid that scene. I am not judging their money, but that level of wealth can lead to a very conspicuous attitude and approach to life that causes harm to others. Thankfully they are not the norm.

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    No, not the norm.

    No more than the slacker, lazy 'drain on society' low SES kids who need financial aid are, or the notion that providing that assistance "encourages" laziness or poor work ethics. That may have validity in a small minority of instances, but in most cases the truth is far more nuanced and less damning.

    I can't blame a child of a highly privileged background for thoughtlessly assuming that EVERYONE has those opportunities and that confidence that whatever they want to try, money is never an object. It might seem rude, but it's really just lack of life experience.

    Similarly, when lower SES parents see kids from higher on the SES acting in certain ways (vacationing lavishly, throwing money rather than time at problems), we may be tempted to ASSUME that there is a moral/ethical explanation... or that our less financially intensive way is more "honorable" but then again, it's because of our lack of life experience, probably.



    Both directions-- those are extremely unfair characterizations.



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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Maybe moral terpitude isn't associated with SES in any statistically significant manner. On either side.

    I do think that DeeDee's point is well-made, however. It is an important thing to bear in mind, but that doesn't mean that it begins only at post-secondary. The same thing happens in elite private prep-schools which have scholarship admissions based on need.

    This I will strongly agree with! Having worked for a luxury 5-star hotel company, I have seen this up-close in all of its permutations. I do believe that most people, whatever their SES, are good and kind-hearted.

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