Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 167 guests, and 10 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
    11,410 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 6 of 28 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 27 28
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Can you take a birth cohort which is normed for IQ, and determine outcomes on the basis of two different measures in adoptive homes? One for SES, and one for EdAtt? I would bet that the LATTER is the more robust effect, but I don't know.

    With the way college tuition has increased by double-digits annually over the course of an entire generation, with wages stagnant over the same period, are SES and EdAtt still separable at this point?

    No, and increasingly inseparable, in fact. But that is more recent data-- it could be what is explaining the trend in the article, though. I wonder what that curve looked like in 1920 or 1935.

    It's possible that what the trend actually shows is a RETURN to a time when educational attainment was equal to SES, and that the period from 1948 through 1980 was an anomoly due to federal programs which made SES a less crucial factor in college attendance.

    Interesting idea.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Social Darwinism is a pejorative name for a political philosophy, coined by its opponents. To what extent SES and IQ are correlated is a scientific question. I don't think you should use "Social Darwinism" to describe informed views about science. I can think of a poster whose views about IQ overlap considerably with mine but whose politics are very different.

    You can believe that the poor are poor largely because of their genes and
    (1) Support anti-poverty programs because poverty is not their fault.
    (2) Oppose anti-poverty program for Social Darwinist reasons.

    (3) You can oppose Social Darwinism based on the well-documented flaws in the "science."

    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 948
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 948
    As an adoptive parent I can say for certain that there are MANY reasons besides Bostonian's Bell Curve arguments that adopted children may struggle in school. Pre-natal care, malnutrition, attachment issues, the possibility that mothers who place children for adoption regardless of race may be more likely to have ADHD etc. I have two friends with adopted children, one from Ethiopia, one African-American, who are at least HG. If they were being raised in the environment they were born into you are deluded if you think they would "look" gifted. Deprivation has an effect on children that has nothing to do with genetics.

    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 948
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 948
    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Social Darwinism is a pejorative name for a political philosophy, coined by its opponents. To what extent SES and IQ are correlated is a scientific question. I don't think you should use "Social Darwinism" to describe informed views about science. I can think of a poster whose views about IQ overlap considerably with mine but whose politics are very different.

    You can believe that the poor are poor largely because of their genes and
    (1) Support anti-poverty programs because poverty is not their fault.
    (2) Oppose anti-poverty program for Social Darwinist reasons.

    (3) You can oppose Social Darwinism based on the well-documented flaws in the "science."

    True.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Originally Posted by Dude
    With the way college tuition has increased by double-digits annually over the course of an entire generation, with wages stagnant over the same period, are SES and EdAtt still separable at this point?

    I've been seriously questioning the price tag of private colleges costing $60,000 a year. I mean, seriously? Sixty thousand dollars for eight months of classes? This is not a realistic and reasonable price tag.

    For decades, they've been telling us that "tuition doesn't even begin to cover the cost of an education at College X!!" Yet there is a long and unhappy history of annual tuition increases that surpass the increase in the cost of living. I suspect (but do not know) that increased tuition is helping to pay for fancy new buildings that may or may not be used by undergrads.

    And I am speaking of a graduate of one of those pricey elite New England colleges! So, no sour grapes here.

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Quote
    Deprivation has an effect on children that has nothing to do with genetics.

    THIS.

    Maslow + bell curve = what we see is obscured by many factors other than genetically determined potential.

    Only kids with high-enough SES get to meet their potential. The rest struggle to meet SOME of it.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    As an adoptive parent I can say for certain that there are MANY reasons besides Bostonian's Bell Curve arguments that adopted children may struggle in school.

    The findings say that adoption improves IQ and school performance. The argument is based on environment, not heritability.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Only kids with high-enough SES get to meet their potential. The rest struggle to meet SOME of it.

    Yes, exactly. This is true of anthropometric characteristics (height, weight, etc). I suspect that it's also true of cognitive ability. And I also suspect that incremental generational gains in cognitive ability may occur if successive generations of a given family or population live in advantaged circumstances. This is certainly true of things like height.

    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 948
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Jul 2010
    Posts: 948
    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    As an adoptive parent I can say for certain that there are MANY reasons besides Bostonian's Bell Curve arguments that adopted children may struggle in school.

    The findings say that adoption improves IQ and school performance. The argument is based on environment, not heritability.

    Right. But that doesn't seem to be the argument of the Bell Curve which is often cited here by Bostonian. And re: racial differences on IQ tests, I will say that I am 100% certain there are questions my dd12 answered correctly on the WISC that a kid from Camden would simply never have been exposed to.

    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 249
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 249
    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Immigrants who have poor educational attainment themselves tend to raise children who go on to also have fairly poor educational attainment, regardless of income.

    Immigrants who have (on average) fairly high levels of educational attainment (such as modern Asian parents, or Jewish ones of the past) parent those children differently.

    That's not (at least not totally) true. I knew a man who came to US to give his kids good future. He is just a handyman (he finished his HS only) and could not afford to live in good school district. But he always push his kids to study hard. Now both of his kids recieved scholarships are in medical school.

    With regard to SES:

    Dr. Ben Carson (Neurosurgeon from JH) came from poor SES. (His mother did not even read well but she wanted her kids to read 2 books a week and always on their back to study.)

    Academic success depends on both

    1) the kids' inherent ability (IQ)
    2) motivation and support (school, parents, environment)

    If we have both, SES does not matter. Of course, high SES means you can move to the good school district and provide top notch education and tutoring if needed.

    The problem is the attitude of the parents. Unfortunately many parents are passionate into their kids sports activity than the education. One of the high school voted to build $ 10 million stadium but did not do anything about losing 10 teachers (half of them in special education) due to Federal and State budget cut.



    But I do agree that educated parents encourage better education and advocate for their kids than their counterparts and therfore the children of educated parents are MOST LIKELY to find success academically than their counterparts.

    Page 6 of 28 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 27 28

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5