Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Extended norms question and rambling

Quick question -- and some rambling...t

So, when the psych called he gave us a number for DS6's fsiq and another one using the extended norms. Both are DYS qualifying, but the second one is significantly higher. Is the number with the extended norms likely overinflated, since he'd just turned 6? (I've been reading that can happen with WISC IV.)

As I mentioned on a post earlier this week, we had him tested since we're considering a grade acceleration. (He goes up a grade for math now and is still very bored.) I have to say that all this is a bit overwhelming. Since there are no gifted services in our area, I'm reading up on here and trying to figure out what sorts of ideas I can take to our school meeting when we go in to plan for next year! (EPGY at school?)

Thanks for reading and, in advance, for any suggestions!

I have reason to believe the extended norms are less accurate for 6 and 7 year-olds.

In the case of my DS7, his extended norms were capped by the limits of the subtests. For example, he completed the coding test with a perfect score in half the time (62 out of 120 seconds).

Although he clearly had a lot of spare capacity, he hit the limit of the subtest and his score was artificially capped, even under the extended norms.

The version of the coding test used for 8+ year-olds has a much higher ceiling. If he would have taken that version of the test, it's likely that his processing speed (and thus his FSIQ) would be significantly higher.

Because the FSIQ scores are normalized, the fact that my son's FSIQ score was artificially capped suggests that other 6-7 year-old FSIQ scores are artificially inflated.

I'm not sure. DD was just tested and just turned 6, my tester didn't do extended norms but I did figure them out from the table and checked here. She did do a GAI though for us, which made a difference since she had low WMI and PSI brought on by perfectionism. I technically don't think the norms overinflanted DD's since she was very far above ceiling on 3 subtests. On 2 she went all the way to the end. Also, her achievement testing actually matches up with the extended norms more that the non- the PRI and math parts especially.

I know that's not a lot of help. I am still trying to figure all this out as well. Good luck with next year. We also have no gifted services and our school told me "sometimes gifted kids just have to be miserable in elementary school" so we are homeschooling. I hope you get some help with the school.

Thanks, amazedmom! Ugh! What an awful response from the school. Although ds isn't being challenged, school has been sympathetic and is aware that we need to come up with a better plan for next year. crossing our fingers!

The extended norm score does seem crazy in our case, not that his achievement isn't high, it is well above grade level. More that the score is outside what one would expect.

I'm following the thread about the Flynn effect now and reading up on reasons kids might test high. Verbal precision, memory and processing would all be areas I'd have named as huge strengths... and are things that seem to cause kids to test well. (Or so I'm concluding from what I've read, which is what I'm hoping to confirm here.)

So, I suppose I'm going to look more at the regular score score. Either score -- combined with his personality -- would seemingly support the skip and the need for individual work, such as epgy could provide. Okay, can you tell I'm over thinking? trying to plan and hold in mind that our end goal is to come up with a plan that appropriately challenges him, while helping him remain the well-adjusted, happy, engaged kiddo he is now.

Even if the score with the extended norms or even without them is inflated somewhat for whatever reason (his age tends to be one where kids get higher scores on this test [I hadn't heard that for the WISC, but you mention it and I have heard that about some tests], Flynn Effect, whatever), he is clearly gifted. He is also clearly bored. Even if he wasn't a PG kid and "only" a HG kid or even in some instances a MG kid with a lot of drive, none of those would say, 'some enrichment is enough, he doesn't need acceleration.'

I have a kiddo who is HG, but not DYS, and she really needed a skip. It wasn't just something that worked fine, it was something that, without it, school would have been such a poor fit that I'm not sure she'd still be in ps now. She was also very young for grade pre-skip. It really isn't just older for grade gifted kids or PG kids who need something more.

All of what you say in your last post about verbal precision, memory and processing would apply to my skipped kid as well except for the last piece. She is extremely precise in her speech; heck, she even punctuates and capitalizes her text messages precisely and correctly! She has an amazing memory. What she does not have is high processing speed. None of that means that the scores obtained by kids with those strengths mean less or are less indicative of the need for a skip.

Also, having used EPGY with my younger child for a bit when she was in elementary and improperly placed for math so we decided to do a little supplementation, I can say that it is a good program, but I doubt that giving him EPGY in lieu of the regular math curriculum will be sufficient to overcome an overall inappropriate grade placement.

My oldest, the skipped one, is not less well adjusted or happy post skip. If anything, we probably waited too long to do it (she skipped 5th) b/c she had already reached a point where she clearly didn't fit with her peers and was starting to deal with one of two things as a result: bullying or the other kids treating her like some kind of prodigy. Socially, the fit has been much, much better post-skip and dd is actually considerably happier and more engaged as a result. She was becoming a bit of a slacker in 4th grade. Not that we don't see procrastination still, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was.

Thanks, Cricket! Glad to hear that it the skip has gone so well for your DD and your review of EPGY. (Trying to get up to speed on all our options!) And, yes, my hope is to skip earlier, rather than later and surprise him with some learning. (He was just lamenting again tonight that he doesn't understand why he needs to go to school since "you're supposed to learn things there and the only things I ever learn are the things you help me with when I have questions." Need to fix that!)

To clarify, we had been planning to ask for the skip to 2nd and that he would go out of the classroom to third for math. Based on the testing and how it confirms our experience of him -- which is that he learns everything super quickly and retains it forever, we are now planning to ask for the grade skip AND a program such as EPGY for math, since it would seem he'd most benefit from individually paced, condensed learning, coupled with being up a grade.

(His teacher was able to work one-on-one with him for math for 5 or 10 min a day for a week when there was a student teacher and she's commented on (1) how they'd got up to 4th grade math concepts and he just seemed to grasp it intuitively and (2) that he came alive doing the work. Both of those comments, added to a separate comment about how she'd made about his lack of "conversational partners" in the classroom, have me convinced that we're on the right track with the skip. And, he's had only positive experiences going up for math, so I'm hopeful that he'd fit right in.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughtful reply!

Just to follow-up, we met with the school and we are going to skip. The meeting actually went really well!

So the plan will be to move to 2nd instead of 1st, with additional differentiation for reading. He's going to need more for math, and that seems to be the harder one to plan for, inasmuch as the school is more used to doing differentiation for reading. I think we'll see if we can get him started with EPGY OE in late August, so that he could hopefully use that smoothly at school, as well. If anyone has additional suggestions, they'd be most welcome!