Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Social skills practice (sorry--long and rambling)

Hi,
I'm in a quandary about DD9's social skills group and am trying to work on some alternatives. Her current school is great but required (at the time of admission last Spring) that she participate in a social skills group. The problem is that while she's apparently doing well socially in school (with the support of the teachers and the other kids, thank goodness :), this group has not gone so well. It's a group for elementary age girls. DD is I think on the autism spectrum but does not have a formal diagnosis; mainly she has some social skills issues, so a group would be good if it were positive rather than a negative experience. However, this group is run by a psych who frankly seems a little young and not too familiar with spectrum kids, and IMO she doesn't seem to 'get' DD. DD has gotten in trouble several times, for example, for not participating in the conversation when (she tells me later) she was trying hard to not interrupt, which is one of her main goals for school and home (and is listed on her checksheet for this same group). Another time she got in trouble because they were playing a board game and DD changed her mind about where to move a piece (before the next move) but another kid told her she was cheating, so DD got upset, saying that wasn't a rule and she wasn't cheating (she's very serious about honesty and also very competitive) and got in trouble with the psych for arguing about it. (At home, if this happens, we say, that's okay for this time, but going forward the rule is [x]--and this was not chess, because she knows those rules very well.) But it was a Big Deal for the psych that DD argued about it, and DD came out of the group crying and very upset herself. I understand the perspective of the other kid and the psych, but just don't think that was the way to handle it--and DD comes away mainly thinking that they are all against her. So she and I discussed this afterwards and talked about how she should deal with it in the future (i.e., assume that it is not okay to change a move without permission, using your words/ discussing what should happen calmly if there is a disagreement, etc.), so hopefully she learned something from that. However, it really seems like the group is not functioning to help her learn social skills, but rather creating issues of its own that we now have to coach her to deal with outside of the group. This seems backwards to me, and this is what seems to happen in this group almost every time. I tried discussing it politely with the psych but didn't really get anywhere, so I don't think it's going to change. I mean, for a kid on the spectrum, is it useful to put them in situations where they don't understand what they're supposed to be doing, or they don't follow through, and then have them be in trouble for that? Maybe it is in some way, but it feels a lot like last year in school where the teacher just didn't get DD and she just always felt bad about herself.

Since she's doing well in school from what we hear from the teacher, and since I don't think she is really learning much from the group, I'd like to figure out something else to do. I've contacted one of the local homeschooling groups (which we can meet up with in the Summer) and an autism group that meets about once a month, so I would be trying to work on her skills in those settings (by coaching, etc.). Also I am thinking about working through the "Raise your child's social IQ" (Cathi Cohen) book this Summer as suggested awhile ago by the Davidson people, and I found a game on Amazon called "The Art of Conversation" that looked useful for practicing dinner conversations. My sister had an interesting suggestion about picking a front-page newspaper story every day and having a 'water cooler' (informal) conversation about it with her kid to practice. And of course we can keep doing playdates every now and then, and more of them if possible, but I guess whether any of that is 'enough' will be judged by any issues she has in school, which in turn will depend largely on how she gets along with her peers and teachers--and so is essentially beyond our control or ability to influence.

I guess I'm just wondering 1) whether people think this kind of social skills group experience is useful for a kid on the spectrum and 2) whether anyone has tried any other resources (books, games, online stuff, etc.) that might be helpful, because unless I start to think differently about this group I'd really like to drop it and hopefully have something of substance to tell the teacher and school as to what we are doing instead.

Thanks for listening. Sorry as usual for my rambling stream of consciousness post.

Gee, the board game thing sounds like just the sort of challenge I would hope a psych would HELP with, not make worse. My DD, who has never been recommended for a social skills group but who has some behavior concerns, would be likely to get upset in that situation....but if she were in a social skills group with a psych at a time, I would expect that to be a growth scenario that the adult would manage well, not a disaster!

Can I just commiserate with you about how much I hate my son's social skills group at school?? He has been in it since age 8 and we FINALLY got him out of it for the final quarter of this year at age 10. It took a HUGE amount of effort. My son DOES have an autism diagnosis and the techniques your group is using sound like a typical social skills group for kids with or without autism.

We found a CBT group (cognitive behavior therapy) to be a better fit because it made him "think about his thinking." The social skills group teaches social "rules" without making them understand them...mainly because a lot of those "rules" do not have logic behind them! For example, my son was taught to do white lies. He is extremely honest and being forced to say white lies made him feel physically sick.

The other thing we did was have him attend lots of different "typical kid" summer camps last summer. While it could have been a disaster, it showed him (and us) that he could handle himself in a variety of social situations with a variety of kids and teachers. He put everything he had been learning to good use.

We presented all this information to the school (his IEP team) at the start of the school year in hopes of decreasing/eliminating his school social skills group. After all their evaluations and deliberations, we finally got him out for the 4th and final quarter of the year.

He will be in this school until he is in 12th grade, so we were trying to work with the school, but what I really wanted to do was pull him out against their advice. So, if you need to maintain good relationships with your school personnel, you need to set up meetings to discuss the pros and cons.

The other funny thing, is that my son was doing GREAT in the actual classrooms with the actual teachers doing actual academics. It was the social skills classroom that he had problems...much like your daughter: arguing with the teacher, debating rules, etc.

Kate

Can I just say that Dbat and Kate you have made me feel so good about my choice to keep DD out of this kind of group! I have successfully argued on several occasions why we do not believe it is necessary or appropriate for her. I cannot believe that a trained psych - regardless of how young - could have handled this situation in this way. If it is causing harm and your DD is otherwise doing well in school is there a reason you cannot just ask that she be removed from this group? If you choose to do some skill training on your own that's great but I am at a loss as to why the parents should have to work so hard to undo damage being caused by the professional.

Thanks for your thoughts and support--we do need to keep on the good side of this school, and also want to--they've been great. I just always feel like if I disagree with a psych, people who aren't me are going to think, hmmm... who am I going to believe, The Psychologist or the crazy-mom-in-denial? The funny thing is DD was actually in a group at the same practice a couple of years ago and I felt like it was helpful because the psych then *did* get DD and was supportive--but of course she then moved away. (So did DD's wonderful teachers at her previous school--why is it always the awesome people who move away, and not the ones you wish would leave???)

On the other hand, fortunately part of DD's lack of social skills manifests as her not having long-lasting sensitivity about such things. So in a way her social issues can be a double-edged sword, or have a silver lining I guess

haha! I think about the same thing with my son!

Also, on't worry about what other people might say or think regarding your daughter. You know her best. In our situation, the social skills teacher is an EXTREMELY nice man. He and I have similar life philosophies, he volunteers at a prison, he is really, really cool. His wife is the best teacher at the school...she has all sorts of stress-relieving OT equipment in her regular classroom. The social skills teacher is surrounded by what seems like appropriate knowledge and resources. But, his interactions with my son are not always good. They get into a power struggle I think. I believe and trust my son. If it is not a good fit, I'm going to go with my instincts even if it goes against everything that looks PERFECT on paper!

Are you working on getting her evaluated for autism? I would consider doing that, and letting the psych know that you are working on that. Sometimes just informing these people that you are working on having your child evaluated completely changes the way they feel about your kids (suddenly they are much more sensitive and concerned, instead of irritated and annoyed.)

One size just does not fit all here. We had to pull our DS out of a similar group, run by the school SLP: it would have been great had she really known how to do it, but she didn't, and it was super-stressful for him.


I'm so glad she has nice support in other ways. 9 is the tipping point where all the other kids' social skills begin to take astronomical leaps; it gets to be a very difficult time for kids on the spectrum.


Finding the right group is hard. It is great that it's a group for girls-- finding girls to be in such a group can be a challenge, as they tend to be under-diagnosed. Are there explicit goals articulated for the group? Do they use a curriculum to teach particular skills? Groups like this can work, but the person leading it has to really know what they're doing, and have very specific goals for what they're teaching and what skills they want each child to be practicing.


It is possible to put into an IEP that particular staff get training specific to ASDs or implementing particular curricula; you'd have to decide whether it's worth it to you to work through that with the school. Michelle Garcia Winner's Social Thinking curriculum is a good one, widely accepted, and-- this is key-- is typically implemented by an SLP, not a psych.

ETA: by which I mean to say not that an SLP is better than a psych, but if you could get the school to see the value, you might be able to get work done on this problem by a different, more understanding person in this particular case.


Which isn't doing her any good socially. Being upset about perceived fairness issues has to be worked through carefully so that DD learns the underlying principle (what she is misunderstanding as a big deal might not be; seeing others' perspective); sounds like the psych is not on board with that.


Not that useful, unless there's someone sympathetic who can debug/analyze the situation with them. Ideally that should be the person running the group!

People learn best when they are operating at the very edge of what they're capable of, but not over the edge; and you can't increase social engagement with any engagement that feels punitive.


You are going into rough waters age-wise; 10-year-old NT kids get very complex socially, and your DD may find them increasingly bewildering. We have found it best to teach social skills in a 1:1 setting first, then try to generalize them with the help of a special ed teacher at school and private therapy team. You may want to supplement the settings you described here with direct instruction on reading social cues and what to say in various situations. There is a good Australian curriculum called "Secret Agent Society" that works on this.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The particulars (leadership, peers) matter a lot.

Have you got any private therapy resources? I would be inclined to formalize the diagnosis and find someone who specializes in ABA or CBT to work on skills with her...

DeeDee

Yup. I've had this experience too

Here too. Also often true of peers; DS's peers were afraid of him until a great teacher educated everyone about his challenges. He has had a lot of support.

Sometimes if you equip people to do the right or helpful thing, they do it.

DeeDee