Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy 8 yo , doesn't care about behavior at school

What to do ? I have an 8 years old , who's very smart and very bright , suspected to be gifted back in 1st grade , and now in 2nd grade the school wants us to nominate him in gifted testing . He's been a straight A's student , very responsible with his school work and home work . He does chores on his own ( helping us doing laundry , loading , unloading dishwasher ) . Never had to tell him do your homework , when he has homework , he gets to it right away ( even in the car line waiting for me ) , reads tons of books , fiction , non fictions , science books . Back in kindergarten his reading level was in 3rd , back in 1st his reading is in 5th . Been changing school for 3 times due to relocating .

The school has the same complain about our son , during kindergarten and 1st grade was told , he can't sit still , talks too much , distracting his friends ( by sharing knowledge about the related subject but he was supposed to be quiet , since he's talking out of his turn )

Now , the past couple months in this school has been a nightmare . He sees himself different and that he finds the needs to impress his friends by throwing silly stupid jokes . Sometimes it's not even funny because he's being sarcastic and his friend didn't get it . For example , he was in the bathroom , his friend asked him what he was doing .. he said " i am shopping .. duh " His friend gave him a blank look .. and our son replied " i was just being sarcastic "
Even more blank look from his friend .

He loves jokes , he loves talking , but all of these things get him in trouble at school . So much so that he was excluded in the school rodeo day program . He is at the point where he doesn't care because of the constant clip moving from his teacher . Although the teacher told me she has no problem with him completing assignments , most of the time he'll be the first to finish , and when he's finished he's bored .. nothing to do . He is the type of kid who always needs to be given something to keep him busy and out of trouble . When he's done he's allowed to read or write , but even his writing is so creative that he gets in trouble because of this too !! Or he would ends up assembling something and creating something from his pens , pencils , erasers , pencil box .. etc . As a result too .. it distracts other students because they wanted to see what he was doing .

Lately he argues so much with his teacher , esp. when he thinks it's not his fault , or being accused for something he didn't do . He always argues , very opinionated . Sometimes i am afraid whatever that comes out from his mouth would get him in big trouble .

The school wants us to nominate him for a gifted test . But at the same time , with the treatment they gave him at school ( basically clip changed every single day for the past 3 months ) , and he's seeing himself as a trouble maker ( yet he's confident that he's awesome and very smart , i got this exact words from his own writing in his journal ) , i really don't think it's a good thing . Principal told me that from what she sees , he's very lagging in his social skills , but she also saw him having a deep conversation with a 4th grader when they both were in the office . But when our son back to the class with is peers , he wanted to be the class clown .

Is this quite normal ?? It gets to the point where it doesn't really bother him anymore that he gets detentions , he gets referrals , he losses recess time .. just because he wanted to impress his friends .

A little background for his academic stuff .. he's a straight A's student , he found out the concept of multiplication on his own when he's just started 1st grade . Right now , he knows how to multiply 3 digits number and he knows division . He adds and subtracts 3-4 digits numbers . He's very creative , he loves building stuff . He is an out of the box thinker , when he was 6 , thanksgiving assignment , what are you thankful for ? He drew and wrote he's thankful for planet earth because without the earth , we human won't survive .
He loves reading books , science , fictions , non fictions , he loves reading his bible . Probably his knowledge about bible story is better than mine by now . He asked me this question not too long ago

" so i have a question after reading my bible last night .. why did God create people who's bad such as the philistines , or pharaoh . God created them knowing that they will turn out to be bad people since He knows everything . So why did he create them ? "

This kind of questions are often came out of nowhere . And then he has problem stopping it .. for example , when we're talking about how strong we can be while watching american ninja warriors . And we saw a woman doing it .. we said she's strong .. and then he rattled about Samson , one of the strong person in the bible . He would talk about something related to the subject but sometimes he doesn't know if it's his turn yet or when to stop it .

I even took him to a pyschologist to have him evaluated . No mood disorders , no ADHD , the specialist said , she finds him very mature almost like 11 years old just from the conversation they had . And that she thinks he would benefit from IQ test and gifted program . As far as the behavior , arguing with teachers ( not beind respectful ) she suggested us to a behavior therapist .

Now the school wants to have their own behavior therapist to monitor him , the therapist that they're using , usually works with autistic children .

I am just at loss at the behavior problem right now . To the point where he came home yesterday with report card , all A's but we ended up talking about the incident at school .The incident that made the principal called me was that he was reading Mad Scientist book from the library and there was one page where a dog had a swimsuit on , bikini , and he would call this bras and panties and he had a good laugh about it and showed it to his friends when he's not supposed to . The principal just said our son was looking at inappropriate picture and said inappropriate things such as bras and panties . I was horrified .. because i thought where did he get all this stuff from ? Well turned out it was from library kids book !!

How do we handle this ?? It seems so exhausted a lot of times with all the things school come up with , but yet he's very smart . But right now he gets tired of the school too and doesn't care anymore . What to do ?

I don't know how to fairly judge the behavior of a kid who is underchallenged and likely bored and looking for any outlet. So, until they are adequately challenged, I think it is kinda meaningless. If they are never challenged, then I'd anticipated even more of the same.

This article talks a bit along these lines:
http://www.cedu.niu.edu/lepf/founda...ed.Students.Why.Do.Smart.Kids.Do.Suc.pdf

I could have written this post about our DS, also 8 and in Gr. 2.

Friday will be his last day at school. It's just getting worse as the days go by. I miss my lovely, caring, happy, and mature little boy.

The school has done nothing for us, even with a psych report that gives him a GAI of 151.

Not sure what we are going to do yet, but it will not be school, or not this one.
(Best school in our province, for kids above the 80th percentile.)

You might want to look into group therapy for him to help with his social skills. My DS9 (PDD-NOS) has been going to one for several months now and I made a huge difference in his school behavior. The other kids in the group are kids his own age, who also have some difficulty making/keeping friends of their own age. I think 2 are just super ADHD, and I don't know much about the other 2. They've been making great progress though. The LPC who oversees it does cognitive behavior therapy.

I feel exactly the same !!! He's not as happy as he used to be anymore . Mostly because they've labelled him as a trouble maker . He even wrote a story about himself called him " TroubleCo"

Me and my husband were thinking about pulling him out from the school too , since it's gotten worse and worse and nothing good coming out from it . And it's not like he's learning anything new from there either . This was supposed to be one of the best school in our area , exemplary school .

It frustrates all of us , not only our son but us as parents too . He even said he is very book smart , but not street smart , this is his own words .

I am thinking to get his IQ tested even though the school wants to do their own testing . Do u think it'll be helpful at all ?

Its not like he's struggling making friends . He makes friends very easy , but what becomes problem is that , he doesn't think his friends understand him , so it gets tiring for him . And it's like he always has to explain things to his friends ( his age ) , so he thinks by throwing jokes , silly stupid jokes , making them laugh would fit him better among his classmates . Since talking about things that he likes doesn't interest his friends , nor his friends care or understand what he's talking about .

Does that make sense at all ?

OMG .. i just saw the title of the article and this was my question all the time to him !!!! He's so smart but yet why does he do stupid things ??

And about teacher , for example , i brought the books that my son worked over last summer , it was math 3rd grade book . I showed this to her and his work , and yet he came home telling me oh he's just learning the same thing he already knew for example counting money , ( he knew this already from early 1st grade ) , or he said oh just addition , oh just subtraction . I mean the kid already knows this all . He is so underchallenged . And as a result he keeps himself busy doing stupid things !! Or distracting friends .. he's not effected by it but it does effect other students who still has a lot to learn .

And if he doesn't learn anything new from school , makes me wonder what does he go to school for ?

It sounds like your poor son is desperately unhappy and under-challenged and I don't see how his behavior is going to change until his environment is changed. Imagine being forced to follow lock-step with other students 2-3 grades younger. It's got to be extremely challenging when his abilities are so much higher than his age peers.

Our school does two achievement tests for entry to GT, but we had private testing done as well after he got into the GT program because the HGT classrooms weren't enough on their own. Turns out it was the private IQ and Achievement testing that the school was most interested in because it was just so high.

Some ideas for right now:
1- Is this the end of a grading period? Since he got all A's, I wonder if you can be bold and ask the principal if he can try out 3rd grade for him right away, with an eye toward a grade skip next year. Ask the school to do a full evaluation for gifted and get the ball rolling on it right away. Ask for an Iowa Acceleration Scale evaluation in addition, so you'll know whether a grade skip is appropriate. Look around the Davidson database for supporting research about behavior and grade skips because I think you'll find some.

2- get some rigor into the classroom right away. Extra worksheets aren't enough. Can he start an online class right now? My son does AoPs at school and it's basically the only class in which he learns anything this year. For math, your son could do ALEX, IXL, CTY or many others. Maybe there's an online social studies or life sciences class he could do as well. This would be in place of what the rest of the kids are doing (that's how my son does his math-- the other kids get the regular curriculum; he goes online.)

2- get your son involved in something HARD outside the classroom, whether it's a musical instrument, tennis, gymnastics, golf, chess team, etc. Before we were able to make classroom changes for my son, he would often say, "thank goodness for gymnastics. It's the only place where I learn something new every time."

3- Find activities where he can interact with older kids who will get his jokes, and who will be interested in the same things. Is there a responsible middle school or HS kid who can work on a Lego Mindstorm with him? (You might have to pay them for this.) Or someone who can teach him some computer programming? My son is good buddies with older kids on his gymnastics team, and they've been valuable role models and friends outside of school.

It sounds like you have a really good understanding of your son. How about involving him in finding some solutions? When we had a frank talk with my son about his schooling, he was very receptive to hearing alternatives and helping making choices that he thought would work for him, and I'll bet your son would appreciate that as well.

Does your child have friends outside of school? Do you have play-dates with different kids, older, younger, same age? That helps a lot with such issues. What works at times, at home is to have quiet time when nothing is offered, no TV\no games\no reading\writing\play, absolutely nothing. Its just the time to sit quiet and be in their own space. We have seen that that has helped my DS to have more control on himself, also teaching him how to handle the situation when nothing much is going on. He also has a tendency to be himself and asks deep questions at times. The distiction, we are trying to teach is when is the right time and when its not for expressing\questioning. Ours is still a work in progress though. But the older he is getting, the more he is able to understand us.

Thank you for some great suggestions .

1. We still have 2 more months of school. They send home about 6 times a year for report card . The principal and the teacher mentioned it during our meeting that our son would be a good candidate for gifted testing . And she sent us some information about it just yesterday , with a note from her that he will be a good candidate for it . I don't really know as much as the process , but they wanted us to fill out the form for it . Then there are papers about math , science , language arts and social studies , each of them has about 10 questions related to the subject etc . I figured this is how they score him , and it's not IQ test .. ? have no idea ..

2. I will try to ask the teacher about this .

3. He's doing korean martial arts outside the school , and he's loving it . And also he just started taking Violin lesson this month , this was all his own idea . He used to take piano lesson , it was MY idea , and he said he didn't really enjoy it . But the violin , so far he said much much better than the piano . At home too , i've tried to supply him with some challenge math , reading , i am not taking whole hour to do that , but just 15 minutes here and there , just to keep him challenged . Should i stop this ? Because obviously he's learning more and more at home ( not from school ) .

4. My husband was thinking the other day about computer programming , he himself self taught computer programming at the age of 10 , he had his first computer at 8 . So he's big into computer , and he mentioned that it might be a good idea teaching our son computer programming . As far as friends , the only older kids he knew was from the martial arts . They seem to get along okay . But the lego mindstorm and older kids idea from you was good ! I might try that

We keep our communication open all the time , it's just sometimes hard for us and very frustrating because a smart kid like him getting into a lot of trouble because of stupid things , just doesn't make sense . We yelled a lot at him and it's been causing all of us a lot of stress . We talked about it , and we tried to change , and he tries to , but i guess that behavior part at school is so hard to change .. because there is always something happens that will get him in trouble .

He has friends outside school , we have neighbourhood kids but they're from same school although different grade . With these kids , they usually play in the weekend , or sometimes he has his friend over who's in the same grade but not in the same class .

That's the thing , it is hard for him sitting not doing anything . Sitting he can handle that , but he always has to have something to do ,read or write or holding something whether it's small ball he can squeeze , or he would create something out of paper and a pencil only , he always has to have something to do . If i try this sitting not doing anything .. how long should i let him do this ?

We started with 2 minutes when DS was little. He had to sit, no standing. It was extremely hard for him, to not do anything. We have increased it up to 10 minutes over time. You can start with 1 min if 2 mins is hard for him and gradually increase it.

Uhhh... wow.

At my house "Sitting, no reading, no talking, no nothing" was called a "time-out" and it was used to modulate inappropriate behavior.

Remember, these aren't "typical" kids. Shutting off their information/data collection mechanisms is... well, it's like shutting off their oxygen supply.

DD definitely regards it as punitive.

"Quiet time" is different than sensory/information deprivation time. I personally do NOT believe that it is helpful to HG+ kids to deprive them of self-selected and otherwise completely appropriate quiet, personally absorbing activities.


I also want to reiterate the notion that this IS how some extravert HG+ children behave when inappropriately challenged in an academic setting.

I did many of the same things-- chattering to my classmates, being somewhat "creative" with my free time, etc. Talk-talk-talk-talk-talk, as my mother said. Well. What she actually said was that {Myname} learned to talk at about nine months old and hasn't shut up since. again.

I also recall teacher comments on report cards which said things like "{My name} speaks well. And often."

These were in my so-called "gifted" classes, which STILL weren't usually at the right level.

It's truly unfair to evaluate a child's behavior in the larger sense when they don't have an appropriate academic setting to 'be' in daily.

It's also possible that this is a child who is HG/+ and simply has motor/verbal over-excitabilities. My DD has a friend who is much like this. She "flits" and always has-- setting up perhaps 2-4 different activities during play dates, and cycling endlessly between them. It's funny to watch my poor DD (who is NOT like that) trailing along, increasingly exhausted by the sheer pace of the shifts in focus.

^ Yes, it is like a timeout and my son feels it like that too at times but that has helped him develop more control when he is outside. Besides he has ample time to explore and feed his channels, so it is not like we are restricting him.
It builds his confidence at school when he doesn't get into trouble and gets appreciation for being considerate of others. As far as his and only his needs are concerned, we as parents will do our best but it feels unrealistic and frustrating to expect others to understand them.

Oh when he was in kindergarten , his teacher kept telling me that our son would not stop talking or moving , when it comes to floor time , he always ended up in trouble because he moved here and there , touched his friends and stuff . 1st grade , we were told that he needs to control every information that comes out from his mouth , it was a private school , and esp. during bible time , his teacher read and told half of the story , only for my son to finish the rest of the story , and again he got in trouble because of that . Teacher wanted him to keep the story to himself , and not sharing it for the classroom because it was her job to do so .

Now at 2nd grade , public school , he gets in trouble because of his talk talk talk and talk . Just like HowlerKarma mentioned , talk talk talk talk , every chance he gets , every free time he gets even though he was told to read , or write , he always wanted to talk ,tell his friends about something . Showing something to his friend .. today he got his watch taken away because he wanted to show it to his friend who sat a desk away from him . Well should have given him more task to do i guess . Just now he was telling his friend ( i was watching a friend's son ) that he doesn't learn anything from school . His friend said he loves school he learns a lot .. My son replied he doesn't learn anything new from school .. Then started throwing math question to his friend . And his friend said they haven't learned division yet .

Today he brought home a private behavior chart , it was divided by time , from talking in appropriate time , using time wisely , being respectful , and another thing . His job is to collect 24 signatures from his teacher , and today he only got 14 out of 24 . No more clip changed , but his goal is to get at least 17 signatures . This morning he was already being removed from the class because he was disruptive .

What am i supposed to do with this kid . He's def. not happy and we're not either

Which school is that? I would love to send my kids there. Here I have felt that kids are expected to show a lot of maturity even from a young age. Its annoyingly hard and too much pressure on the kids to behave in the schools.

I don't think there is any other schools around this area

Yesterday the principal i talked with on the phone mentioned about asking my permission for a behavioral consultation . Today he came home and gave me an envelope , i guess i have to sign this to give a permission for them to do so . Why do i need to sign it if it's only behavioral consultation ?? Can anybody give me any insight ??

Are you in the US? If so, it's probably permission for them to do a Functional Behavior Assessment. This is a document that tries to analyze what the "function" of misbehavior at school is. Personally, I think it's kind of stupid, because I don't think that most kids are connivers who have some kind of master plan that they are manipulating us with to get what they want. I think they just can't keep themselves together. Figuring out what skills they might lack and teaching those is useful, but I don't think an FBA really sets up the framework correctly to identify missing skills, instead of blaming the kid for trying to manipulate the adults.

That said, FBA is the language that's in the federal rules, so that's what they request and why. You have to sign before they can do it.

There is an article around this site somewhere about how gifted kids are thought to have low social skills but it is actually the other way around a lot of times. That is, they expect more out of friendships and social relationships than the other kids their age are able to give. Your son tells more advanced jokes than the other kids understand, and when they don't understand, he reacts badly because he doesn't know why they are acting like that. He expects friends to behave in a certain way, and they are not old enough to do so, and he reacts badly. Schools use the social disparity as a reason why the child isn't a candidate for acceleration, but in fact it's often a reason why they SHOULD be. Getting along with older children and adults is a good sign.

As for the library book, just -- argh. How can he be in trouble for "looking at inappropriate pictures" in a school library book? All he did was use a more advanced technical term than what was expected at his age, and shocked someone. They need to get over it.

Poor you and poor him. He is miserable and he can't do anything about it. Imagine how being that powerless would make you behave.

Yes we're in the US . I just feel it's unfair to have his behavior judged , just because the area / classroom itself doesn't suit his needs . Just like us when we're put in a place where we don't belong , we tend to behave a little awkward and to be judged like that , it just doesn't seem right .

I really don't think DS has a somewhat a masterplan behind his behavior at school . He's an open talker , he's willing to talk with you , he'll tell you what works what doesn't work for his behavior . And no there is absolutely no masterplan behind everything he does . Well there is .. it's just that he thinks he doesn't learn anything at school , and he wants to learn something , not just going to school but not learning anything , he wants something , he said he would use his time and his brain to work on something new if they ever teach me anything new he doesn't know .

So , if you were me , would you sign this paper ??? i'd think they should let us meet with them before they interview or do whatever they will to DS . Just like a therapist we're meeting next month , she wants to meet us first before she starts the therapy with DS .

The school wants to do a behavioral consultation too .. i wonder if this is another excuse for them to say " no turns out he's not a candidate for accelaration "

I feel so helpless and angry at the same time and feels like the school has changed him so much . I broke down and cried last night , i felt terrible as a parent , as if i m not doing my job , look at our son , he's so unhappy , he thinks he's a trouble maker , he feels different , he feels his friends won't like him if he doesn't make them laugh , and being told his social skills is equal to a 4-5 years old . Yet he knows he's very smart .. but we can't do anything about it . As if it's all my fault letting it to get to this point .. Our family is not happy , we're under a lot of stress .

If it were me, I would not sign the permission. You already have a professional assessment that says he is not ADHD. I had to fight hard to keep the school form labeling my son and wanting to drug him so they didn't have to deal with the fact that he was bored, under challenged and gifted in an inappropriate setting,

Also gifted testing is not a reward for good behavior - it is testing to place your child in an appropriate setting because the one now isn't working. Special Ed is for kids who are not served appropriately in a regular classroom setting with no accommodations. Gifted is special ed. I'd push for the testing. You'll find it alleviates a lot of the acting out, joke telling, etc. My older son was misbehaving before I got him tested. After they moved him to gifted, he was much better behaved. Not perfect by a long shot, but much better.

Hi, jaylivg,
I'm so sorry you're having all these problems with the school. Is homeschooling an option for you? Or finding another school? That can be difficult but it really sounds like where he is is not a good place for him. Also, if the school wants you to have him tested, you may want to consider independent (outside) testing (to fill out any additional tests the school might be thinking of), if you can afford it, although others may have more insight on this. It's just that sometimes schools want to have a kid tested so they can help them better by understanding what their issues are, and sometimes they want to put a label on them so they can 'counsel them out' (although I guess that's more an issue with private school mostly). Have you discussed the earlier report with them? If not, perhaps it would be best to go along with what the school suggests for now as long as you think they're trying to help, and see what happens. They may really be trying to do some good. Actually the checklist idea--although it sounds frustrating right now for your son--has really helped our DD9 adjust her behavior, because hers was specific, achievable goals that the teacher was helping her with, so the school then stopped mentioning medication.

Also not really helpful, but your story about your son's sense of humor reminds me of my daughter's sense of humor--very inappropriate most of the time! Fortunately she now understands that she is not to say any of this stuff at school, and we haven't gotten any bad reports about that (although the bra and panties thing I would not have thought would get a kid in trouble). She now (at age 9) enjoys the books by The Oatmeal, the Capitol Steps, and Calvin and Hobbes, all of which would probably get her in trouble if she repeated anything from any of them at school (but they're not in the school library, either!!). Her best friends are also kids who appreciate that kind of humor (and so do DH and I), so we save that stuff for home and outside school and talk to her a lot about how certain things are only appropriate outside school. Fortunately that has worked with her, and she is able to enjoy some other kids for what interests they share even though she doesn't enjoy them as much as her friends who do share that sense of humor. I hope you can find some way of helping you and your son deal with some of this stuff; I know it can be very very difficult to have problems like this and I wish I could be more helpful. Good luck! Clearly you are really trying hard to help your kid, so don't lose heart

I would not sign it.

They only want to manipulate him into doing what they want him to do. As far as I understand, he does not have a behavioural or social problem - he is just coming up with creative ways to keep himself busy, since the school/teacher is unable to do so.

7 Hours is a loooong time to be bored for when you are 8.
I think you are on a downhill slope - just my prediction.

I will not be surprised if they suggest some sort of drug in a few weeks (if you sign).

Grab your boy and run!

Agreed. From everything that I know about procedural approaches, this is the prologue to an ADHD drug recommendation from the school.

Nice way of "accommodating" his needs as a learner, huh?

I wouldn't sign.

Furthermore, I'd be exploring homeschooling resources in your area. Your DS sounds highly social and his behavior actually sounds quite well-regulated (IMO) given his personality type and particular pattern of OE's. That means that he will not be especially pleased with a solitary, in-home version of homeschooling, though.

Places to check for resources/information:

local library, parks department, colleges/uni's.

If you have a note from the doctor that he does not have ADHD (sounds like you do), they cannot suggest medication (or drug recommendation).


I agree with this. But, agreeing to an FBA does not equal agreeing to a drug recommmendation from the school. Further, schools cannot diagnose ADHD. They can, at most, recommend going to a psychologist/medical professionals to rule in/rule out ADHD. Schools also cannot push medication -- it is against the law. Schools cannot diagnose medical conditions, like ADHD/SPD/Dysgraphia etc

The FBA does this: it measures disruptive behaviors, and quantifies it. The behavior plan is developed after the FBA is done. A lot of it depends on the extent of misbehavior -- for example, a child disrupting another child's work/learning is dealt with a lot differently than a child who does not complete worksheets or follows the classroom routine (example: taking papers out of one's folder ) at a slower pace.

I would definitely ask the principal what they hope to accomplish with the FBA and to ask (in writing through email) for the list of behaviors they are planning to measure before signing anything. If you have other options, such as switching to another school in the same school district, ask for it for next year. I do think that, if the school is recommending gifted testing, you should ask for it in writing first. Get the gifted testing done, have the school provide the level of enrichment needed and see if disruptive behaviors still persist.

Hope this helps !

Unlesssss.... they HAVE such a person on-staff. And while it is technically true that schools can't force medication, they can (and DO) pressure parents to do so or hit the road, so to speak, by stonewalling with ANY other services until parents comply.

I do agree that asking for detailed specifics re: what is sought, and what will be measured, and why, and by whom, is a great idea.

I'd also preface that with "helpfulness" about the process... after all, valuing their time and resources as you do, you certainly wouldn't want them to 'waste time/resources' on something you already had investigated...

And if they include ADD in a list of reasons, you can point out that WOW, are you ever glad that you asked, because, hey-- you can check that off their list. Isn't that nice?

If it is a public school, I doubt that they have medical professionals on staff. Yes, they do have school psychologists and school nurses, but they cannot make a medical diagnosis.

Yes, stonewalling is definitely done. But I also think parents do have other choices -- afterschool at home (if the kid wants it), or do enrichment activities outside of school etc. Schools generally prefer bright children, who comply with doing worksheets, as opposed to truly gifted children, who think out of the box and who have (for example) mastered multiplication in K. A lot of times, schools have no clue as to what to do with kids who are outliers. If the kid is an outlier and has behavioral issues (disrupting the class etc), one expects stonewalling. What stood out, to me, was that the school/teacher recommended gifted testing. The person can choose to do it privately (provided the school accepts outside results, so best to check), so there is no question of any bias. I would start with that.

For statements like "this kid has the social skills of a 5 year old", or "reacting to jokes made in a totally innocent manner", I would just say something like "We'll work on it" and move along. The school will always test enough to see if the parent blinks first and says "OK, we will get him tested" etc, but I think if you stand your ground, and continue advocating (ABQMom said in some other thread that she has fought for services as though her son has a label even though he does not have a label), it may work. For us, personally, proving with work samples, again & again, that my child knows the material, proving that the teacher had a bias by looking carefully at worksheets that came back from school etc, helped the school look at it a little differently. Do they now think that my child no longer has ADHD ? No, of course not. But they are also extremely careful -- because they know I will ask for a lot of detail in a very polite manner. So, in a way, wear them down as well, so they provide whatever support is needed to make the child succeed.

Thank you for all the suggestions . Really appreciate it .

We did not sign the letter they sent yesterday . We thought we should ask everyone's opinion here first ( since i really don't have anybody to ask about this , don't think we have any friends who's going through the same thing like we do , so any help from you guys are highly appreciated )

But anyway we didn't sign it . We already had a paper from the psychiatrist that we took our DS to last week . She explained it in the paper itself that DS does not meet the criteria of ADHD or any mood disorder , she's just recommending DS to get IQ tested and also as far as being disrespectful , she's suggesting for a behavior therapist .

Now since the principal saw that behavior therapist word in the letter that thet psychiatrist sent , she called me and she asked if i would give her permission to have our DS evaluated by their FBA .

Like everyone here said nothing is going to change because he's still staying in the same class . Given the same thing like everyone else in the class does . Yesterday's theme of math was learning to tell time , he knew that already back from kindergarten . I showed the teacher in front of the principal too , works he's been doing , works he did last summer from multiplication , 3 digits multiplication that he learned just last week only with 2 explanations how to do it , even showed her that he's working on division , starting with fraction .. but nothing has been done .

I don't want him to be medicated , the pyschiatrist even said that she doesn't see any of those behavior .

If we ended up choosing for a home school , wouldn't that hurt his social skills even more ? Though he wouldn't be too happy with the idea , he said this himself few weeks ago " Mom , i think it's better if you homeschool me , because i can go on my own pace , i can learn more stuff , and i don't have to get in trouble all the time from school and from you too when i get home "

He used to get consequences when he gets in trouble at school , but now , me and DH are tired of giving him punishments and seeing him very unhappy , it breaks our heart seeing him like that . He was a very happy baby , happy kid .. until all of this started . Sometimes it makes me wonder .. it would have been so much easier if he's just an average kid , but then again it's not going to be him . Does any of you feel this way sometimes when things get tough ??

Thank you for listening to me venting .

I think pretty much anyone here can identify with that sentiment.

There is definitely a very dark side to having a kid with this set of extraordinary (outside the box) needs. You're not crazy, and you're not alone.


ETA: in addition to MoN's excellent advice below, consider what I noted earlier about local library, parks department, or continuing education/arts classes. You can readily find other homeschooling families by choosing activities which are scheduled DURING school hours. Social extraverts need a different kind of handling in homeschooling than introverts like my DD and I do. But it is definitely possible.

This can go round and round, they decline to accelerate as they think your son is immature and because he doesn't get acceleration, he is more likely to misbehave. I think you need to give them a message to give your son challenging work at school and then continue like that for at least 3-4 months and if his behavior does not improve then only you will think of behavior consultation. In the meantime you can also work with son at home to make him undestand the expectations from school.

I feel for your child.

If I were you, I'd present the principal with a permission slip to perform a School Behavior Assessment, wherein you bring in professionals to analyze exactly why your child is being punished for being bored, which is the school's fault, not your DS's.

:LIKE:

Well, I have a totally different relationship with the school than you do, but I did sign the paper to let them do an FBA. Then we argued about everything that was in it, and the school has (sort of) backed down. That is, we've never been presented with anything but a draft, and a promise to get a final version to us. They have implemented a behavior plan despite the lack of a completed FBA - that is also marked "draft" in everything they've showed us. But they're not doing any harm to DD9, so we've been letting it go for now.

The FBA in our school is completed by the school counselor, not by an outside evaluator. Is there a reference to someone else on yours? It's based on observations made in several environments at school (with teacher, specialist classes, recess, lunch, etc.). There isn't necessarily any interaction with your kid at all, just observation.

Actually my neighbour 2 houses down the street is homeschooling all her 3 children . And i got a little informations about it from her , and i guess from what i learned , there are few families in this neighbourhood that are homeschooling their children . Few weeks back , since this is a new area , we had a meet and greet with neighbours and there were sign up sheet about clubs they're having such as cooking , running , guitar , bingo , and there was homeschool club . I signed in my name there , but haven't heard anything yet , hopefully soon , they'll be contacting me or something , maybe i can learn more about it too .

Anyway back to the FBA thing , it's not going to be done by the school counselor . The school counselor herself only got to talk with DS 2 times , and i met her once , and that was my initiation to meet with her , it was my idea , and she was very nice and said she'd help . But i guess not much , since DS only got to talk with her 2 times , both time because he was in trouble from something . He was being removed from the class for being disruptive .

The FBA will be an outside person from what i learned , and the principal said , the person usually works with autistic children .

Maybe you can insist that the school perform a WISC-VI as part of their investigation as to why your DS has these issues. It only makes sense that they explore it from your standpoint too.

My DS8 will have his last day at school tomorrow. I'm done trying to make it work.

Please tell me , i am being ridiculous and crazy to think this is stupid .

DS got in trouble because he was walking backwards , and he had to do running laps because of that .

Really ? Seriously ?? Does all the school consider this as a breaking the law behavior ??

ElizabethN, How did they implement the behavior plan despite the lack of a completed FBA and parental consent ? That seems off to me.

I guess I don't see the problem with doing an FBA as well (and my school situation seems different from yours as well)-- especially, if the kid has been having problems with different schools over the years. Don't get me wrong -- I totally get why, as a parent, you would react this way, with the issue being that the kid is bored/under-challenged. I don't think doing an FBA automatically qualifies the school to suggest medication. That said, I do think that the principal should offer IQ testing first(that was a recommendation that was also there in the psychologist's report), and that you should continue to ask for it. If you were to homeschool, the details available through WISC testing or WJ Achievement testing could be valuable.


The school seems to employ punitive methods for something that is not on the radar (as far as misbehavior is concerned). I would probably get all the details you could. Then, show up at the school, and find out what their logic is.

They pretty much just started doing it. The counselor did email it to me, but she also discussed it with my DD9 and started using it before I had much time to think about it or say yes or no. Again, I don't think it's doing any harm, so I'm not pushing. They are giving DD9 rewards for getting a certain number of "happy faces" for behavior during the day. I don't know how (or whether) they plan to fade the rewards. She's mostly choosing lunch with the counselor and a friend from her short menu of available rewards, and she is totally charming the counselor. I don't think harm is likely to come of it.

Oh no ... this thread has got me thinking (and has gotten me nervous). My son has an anxiety disorder diagnosis. Personally, I adamantly believe that my DS does not truly have anxiety to constitute a disorder.. I believe all he really needs is to have his writing accommodations in place (scribing, etc.) and not be shamed for his writing disability (last year a horrible para shaming him and as well as his disability not being accommodated for led to a lot of acting out, frustration and anxiety that got him the anxiety diagnosis. However, the diagnosis is quite useful so I use it to get things like an IEP to have more power to enforce the writing accommodations and such.

Anyway, so they throw in these vague goals for anxiety in the iep and put DS in social skills group. Ds thinks social skills group is fun so I am okay with it even though I think it's pretty useless and unnecessary. I usually go right along with the vague anxiety goals as I see them as just bullcrap and they don't hurt. For me, the iep is really all about getting his handwriting accommodations for his writing disability

As many of you know we have been struggling with iep writing accommodations. Well, recently in the midst of that struggle, I get notified that they need a "baseline" for the "anxiety goals," which by the way they made a little more specific this time around. I am (was) fine with that but very curious as to how they are going to establish a "baseline" for the anxiety goals. I questioned that and there has been pretty much been radio silence. They don't want to put anything in writing to me anymore b/c of the fighting we are doing over the writing accommodations so they plan on telling me at a meeting we are setting up. .

Is it possible that they will try to do a FBA to get a baseline? I will absolutely not consent to that. I don't want those morons who do not understand the effects of a neuromuscular disability analyzing my son's behavior! Sorry to hijack!

Incidentally, my son has had no disruptive behaviors this year. He has gotten a total of only 2 checks on his daily conduct report. However, the past tww months we all noticed DS has been irritable, much quicker to anger, etc. Then I went back through my communications in my emails and realized they stopped providing his writing accommodations consistently and his para had been made some comments last month 'shaming' him for using a scribe so he was trying not to use her as a scribe anymore. At the last IEp meeting, when we discussed his irritability I maintained it's because they are pushing him too hard to go longer and longer without his scribe. I also maintained once I found out about para'a comments that the para's comments about his disability also contributed to his irritability. They seem to disagree that his behavior (which is simply irritable by the way - not anything ever disruptive or extreme though did seem to be slowly deteriorating progressively) is connected to them withholding his accommodations. This is an area of contention. I am starting to think their plan is to prove through an FBA that the irritability is not connected to whether or not he gets his scribing accommodations.

To the OP I have very little faith in Functional Behavioral Assessments and the Behavioral Analysts that schools use to do such assessments especially when dealing with giftedness and any complicated situations. If you have concerns or your son is having trouble at school, take you son to a Psych/neuropsych YOU choose. Then you decide how much of the info you want to share with the school. I looked it up and you do not have to consent to it and I wouldn't consent. I won't if they try to get me to do it for my son.

And guess what label your child will end up with at the conclusion of the FBA...

From what I understand, they can use the FBA to measure anxiety. Not sure what the school meant by a "baseline".


Wonder how they judge "irritability". This does sound like something that the FBA person may do (much more than the "baseline" for anxiety)

Thanks.
From what I know about FBA, it does sound like your daughter's school is doing behavioral plan in a positive manner. It also sounds like you have a pretty decent relationship with the school.

That's what we ended up telling the school , we're just going to use our own therapist .

Well, fortunately, the IEP that we just worked out has the box for FBA checked "no." So at least I am not consenting to an FBA by signing the IEP. I don't know what they mean by establishing a baseline either. I am somewhat suspicious especially since when I questioned it I was met with a silence. The special ed teacher emailed me saying they made the changes of putting the scribing accommodations back in the iep and were sending it home with DS for me to sign. She added "oh and btw way also added that a baseline for one of the goals must be determined within ten days." I asked "what is a baseline and for what goal is being an added?" She responded "A baseline is the beginning measurement of a behavior. A baseline of behavior is measured before an intervention begins. The baseline measurement, compared to later measurements after an intervention, gives a starting point to measure how effective the intervention is. The baseline will be applied to the anxiety goal." I emailed "well that sounds like a good idea. However, I am curious how you will determine what the baseline is for that behavior? Sorry to be dense... I guess through some sort of behavioral ratings or something?" I received no response to this at all... why can't she tell me how they plan on doing this via email? Obviously, I can't consent to this unless I know what they are planning to do. So I am suspicious... It felt like whatever they are doing/plan on doing they have decided on it without me (ie., we did not discuss this at all in the last iep meeting last week), then they tried to 'sneak' it in (i.e., 'oh btw we are adding this too') and when I say 'please explain how you plan on doing this.' There is silence. Seems odd. And I do not like the feeling that I really can't trust these people.

This is just a thought since i ran into someone's thread talking about Sylvan Learning center .

Would it be a good idea to have DS take their assessment test to see his level ??

Since I have been trying to get our school to do one for my son for the past 2 years with limited success I am a bit shocked at the hostility to the idea (and the "ugh, behaviorist usually works with autistic kids, can you believe that!" part is... a bit off-putting). Glad ElizabethN had a decent experience, at least.

The goal of an functional behavior analysis is to identify what triggers a behavior and then implement a plan to work on the triggers, rather than the behaviors themselves out of context. If done correctly the outcome for the OP's child should be "child finishes work early, child gets bored, child misbehaves" and the ideal behavior improvement plan would be to make sure the child is not bored (differentiation, acceleration, grade skip, GT pull-outs...).

Of course there are many ways an incompetent or hostile observer could do this incorrectly -- there is one person at my school I wouldn't trust with the process, and if the relationship with the school is truly broken having a private behaviorist spend the time needed to get the full picture at the school might be the answer. But working outside of school with a private therapist to fix the child when what is clearly needed is to change the environment just doesn't make sense.

Anyway. For marytheres, the IEP forms in our district always start a goal with the baseline, ie. what the present level is. AFAIK this is good practice, and exactly what the Wrights recommend when writing SMART (specific/measurable/action words/realistic and relevant) IEPs.

You might want to get more details on who will assess the baseline, what the methods used will be, and shape the process (ask for a parent questionnaire to be included, make sure that 1:1 assessments are done with somebody you/your child like, make sure observers are not biaised -- ie. that the horrible aide is not the one taking notes...), but refusing to get a baseline... just doesn't make sense to me.

Sylvan would give you a baseline. There are also some online assessments you can use, some free (K12).

What do you want to use the information for? arguing for accelerations? Grade skip? Differentiation?

In your original post the school seemed to want to help by assessing the child for giftedness and... placement in a gifted program? or something else? and you didn't think it was a good idea because...???

I am NOT refusing a baseline (and actually I never said that in any post). I WILL refuse an FBA because I have had very poor experiences with those. (Just my experience but Behavioral Analysts (BAs) that work primarily with children with autism seem to see autism in everything, Behavioral Analysts (BAs) that work primarily with children with ADHD see adhd in everything, and so on ...My child's disabilities and gifts are more complicated for that type of person, jmo. I prefer to get someone I have chosen and that I have looked at the qualifications and I have interviewed and that I feel confident in to analyze my child.)

I am refusing getting the "baseline" if I do not get the very details you mention: "more details on who will assess the baseline, what the methods used will be, and shape the process (ask for a parent questionnaire to be included, make sure that 1:1 assessments are done with somebody you/your child like, make sure observers are not biaised -- ie. that the horrible aide is not the one taking notes...)" Getting no response to my asking how they are going to establish the baseline has made me suspicious. And, once I get their answers, if I am unhappy with their answers to or their process (like if they have the aid who shamed him weighing in on it) you can bet I will refuse until I am comfortable.

Also this.

Your private specialist, who ruled out ADHD, is recommending a behavior analyst be involved. When the school tries to get the ball rolling, the consensus is to... refuse???

Who said this?

If i can get the assessment done , i probably can use that to save our DS from the constant 'clip changing ' about every single thing he does at school . Some of them that i thought just plain ridiculous . And to explain to the teacher , this probably the reason behind all the behavior he's been showing you . And maybe she'll get the idea about giving him work that suits him .

The testing for the gifted is supposed to be done sometimes next month ,i just sent the nomination paper this morning , and i did ask the counselor to at least walk me through the process .. etc , but she didn't reply me with anything about that .

Yes the school does mention about wanting to nominate him for the test , that was before spring break when they mentioned it .Earlier this week they brought up about the FBA who's specializes working with autistic children to asses DS . I just thought i wanted to give them a proof that DS needs to learn something new , not things that he knows already . The school year is almost over , but what does he learn ? Not much ..

Our school principal called me to ask my permission to have our DS tested by the behaviorist that specializes in autistic kids .

She called me that day , and told me about DS behavior ( including telling me DS was looking into inappropriate things and said inappropriate things from a book . Guess where he got the book ? SCHOOL LIBRARY ) It was a mad science book , about a dog wearing swim suit except DS had a good laugh saying the dog was wearing bras and panties !!! And that behavior disrupted the class !

I might have jumped to conclusions:


and


seemed to question why a baseline was needed (answer: it is required by law) rather than how it would be assessed.

The wrightslaw site has lists of suggested assessment tools for different conditions. Having in writing (from an outside specialist) that your son's anxiety is a reaction to a hostile learning environment rather than a separate condition would be helpful...

We did mention to the pyschologist our DS likes to argue with his teacher at school , so it's considered being disrespectful . The pyschologist refer to behavior therapist for working with him being disrespectful . Nothing else .

Right after I said this, which you quoted: I immediately said this

Also, I would direct you to this post to further clarify my concern:


The previous anxiety goals had no "baseline" established or referenced to as far I as I know so I guess they were in violation of the law.... This is the first I am hearing a "baseline" is necessary after two iep meetings and two full ieps with "anxiety goals"

Behavior analysis is heavily used with spectrum kids. Unless you live in a school district big enough to justify dedicating a specialist to the "other" cases most behaviorists will have a majority of their case load be autistic kids.

Was that the behavior analyst calling you?

Irena, do you have the Wrights' FETA book? Page 117.

Or http://idea.ed.gov/explore/view/p/,root,regs,300,D,300%252E320,

This: "son's anxiety is a reaction to a hostile learning environment " is EXACTLY my position he doesn't have "anxiety" or any behaviors unless he is being shamed for his disability and/or the disability is not being accommodated for. However, and unfortunately, he was merely diagnosed with anxiety and the report, being poorly done by a poor psychologist, never addressed this issue at all. So, to the school he just has an "anxiety disorder," which I try to use to DS's advantage by saying if he is with hostile teachers it brings out his "anxiety" and if he doesn't have access to his education without being inhibited by his writing disability then his anxiety is triggered ...

I am fine with them having anxiety goals (hey everyone has some anxiety - can't hurt to have tools to cope, right?) and I am fine with a "baseline" as long as I know what they are doing and how... and as long as they are not causing harm to my DS. I will never be on board with FBAs when it comes to my kid - sorry, glad other people have had good experiences with it ... I am sure in certain instances, with truly good FBAs, there are many postives...I don't trust ours with my DS - especially since no one seems to understand how a neuromuscular disability affects a gifted child...Just my experience.

Irena, in your shoes I would read up on assessments for anxiety, make a time line of behaviors observed at home (and any feedback from the school about behavior issues) when his supports were dropped, decide with your advocate what the ideal assessment plan would be to show the anxiety becomes a problem when his accommodations are lessened, have that meeting, bring your advocate, and use the meeting to come up with an assessment plan. Then shape the goals and the action items to reinforce the need for his accommodations.

The fact that they are currently in violation of the law on those vague IEP goals is not a problem for you, it is leverage, right? But then IANAL, and you are .

How did you handle the FBA request? Have you returned it yet? Can you ask for a meeting with the behavior person (and the teacher, if the teacher is not hostile) so that that person can explain to you what she would be doing?

Well, I did this part. Which I think makes them nervous because it has a side effect of showing that they have been violating the IEP.

The other parts I am not sure how to go about ...Guess I have to work on that now. I have been so focused on and tied up with keeping his writing accommodations and making sure they actually give him the accommodations, I didn't worry about the other stuff. Honestly, that is all we really need from the IEP - DS simply needs his writing accommodations ... the rest is really neither here nor there usually...

Huh? An FBA is not a person, it is a process. It can be performed by anyone with appropriate training - could be a school counselor, a behaviorist, I suppose even a teacher if she has training in analyzing behavior. It is not a diagnosis. It is an analysis of the "function" of behaviors. As I said earlier, I don't really like this language, because I think it puts the onus on the child in an inappropriate way. But this reaction sounds sort of over-the-top. You can certainly dispute the FBA after it is written, and ask for another opinion, but I'm not sure you can force the school to pay for your own personally-selected professional in the first go-around instead of using the qualified people that they have in-house.

I refer to the people that do FBA as Functional Behavioral Assessors (FBAs for short) - just my shorthand... but I realize it is an assessment done by behaviorists (well at our school it is done by "behaviorists") and I do not care for their philosophy --- that's just me, but I am entitled to my opinion ...

I never said anything or encouraged anyone to do this:
Simply, I, personally, would rather pay my own professionals (analysts, psychologists, neuropsychologists, whatever) that I research and choose and with whom I am comfortable. Period. I would at this point advise the same about psycho-educational evals ... Sure you can get them done by the school for free but often they are not comprehensive enough, the school psych may be good or not (it's not like you have a choice), the school tends to have it's own agenda, etc....Yes, you can get a school eval, then disagree and ask for an IEE but that process takes soooo long! (have you tried it? It is a nightmare in our district and takes over 6 months while the child suffers). And all of that info from the first eval, whether it is erroneous or misleading or valid or not is on the record and follows your kid, etc etc etc. My advice - pay for your own eval ... Then you can decide what to do and where to go and what to share from there.

As for this: I don't know about anyone else ... but I have enough fights on my hands I don't need to add something else I disagree with to the table. Once the schools have erroneous information it gets passed on and on and on - you are never free of it. Again, sorry you think it is over the top but I have had bad experiences...

ETA: I actually don't even have to worry about it... I got clarification that they are not asking to do and are not interested in doing an FBA on my child, thank goodness.

OK - that's just a pretty confusing usage when the same acronym is also in the thread meaning something else, and in fact even in your own post ("I got clarificatiob that they are not asking to do and are not interested in doing an FBA on my child, thank goodness.")

I'm glad no one is asking to do a Functional Behavior Assessment of your child.

That sounds like when school asking to do FBA ..it means its a really bad thing for DS then .

Okay so is this offensive or something? I am very sorry if it calling a person who does Functional Behavior Assessments a "Functional Behavioral Assessor" I should know better, but I don't. I am quite new to this world and always just referred to them as assessors - hence the acronym. I did not realize that this would upset or offend anyone. What should I call them? Should I go back and change all of my posts?

Yup, me too. I am not comfortable with them for my child. I am having my kid evaluated by a neuropsychologist, who comes recommended by a few friends, and whom I have interviewed and I like so far. She can give the school lots of recommendations and will also speak to the school if necessary. I am hopeful she will be helpful.

Yes she did yesterday leaving a message on the phone . My husband called her back but DH left a message also that we're choosing our own therapist . Didnt sign the paper .

It's not that it's offensive at all, and I have no intention of asking you to revise your posts. What it is is confusing. I don't think anyone calls themselves a "Functional Behavior Assessor" anyway - "Behavior Assessor" makes sense (although I think Behavior Analyst would be more common), but FBA is sort of a weird term to use referring to a person. It's also weird to use to refer to a person in a thread where there is active discussion going on about Functional Behavior Assessments and how they affect our kids. If I came into a thread here and started talking about the Wang Information Services Corporation by its acronym in a discussion of IQ testing, it would also be confusing, even if it were perfectly OK in another context.

Oh, okay, "BA" (for "behavior analyst") it is from now on. Just a matter of dropping the F, which is fine by me b/c less to type Again, I just don't know ALL of the lingo, yet. Seems like it really isn't that big of a deal, really. And it seems like no one else was all that confused. Of course, my sincere apologies for such a mistake and potentially causing so much confusion. Thanks for being nice about it and not condescending - like I said, I am new to all of this but learning fast with help of people on here like yourself.

So, what did you do?

We are enjoying our first week home. My son has not complained of stomach pain or knee pain for the first time in months.

He is back! My happy, carefree, bubbly, funny, bright boy is back!

(I think about you a lot, since our boys are the same age, and your situation seem so similar.)

Hello ,

we took him to a therapist . He looked at our son's communication card from school ( he used to work for school for 22 years i guess ) . Immediately he said that all this behavior problems really look like ADHD kid . I didn't say anything about him probably is gifted . I can't say he is yet because we haven't done any testing as far as the IQ test .

Then he talked to our DS and when they got out , he said he thinks our DS is in the gifted range .

Nothing has changed , the school just started with a private behavior chart , his job is to collect 17 initials from power up time , specials , math ,science , reading , and recess/lunch .

The school is scheduling the 2nd week of April for the testing .

PS : I was trying to send you a private message , not sure if it went through ?