Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Dr. Ross Greene - Collaborative Problem Solving

Anyone have good or bad results with this set of techniques? It is from his book The Explosive Child.

Explosive child symptoms are what my 9yo son has. I've tried to apply collaborative problem solving (CPS) with him and the results are good so far, yet not totally satisfying. I have to give up some control that as a parent I feel like I should have.

Anyone have stories / advice? Thanks.

OK... If he fits the book's profile, then your previous approach wasn't working. Given that, what control are you giving up? You can be in "control" and have escalating fights or you can be flexible and have a working family life... I know which we have chosen. We aren't using this system but have taken elements from this approach and the Nurtured Heart approach which a variety of people on this board really like. It has helped with our high anxiety, intense DS6. If you are getting results you like I wouldn't let societal expectations derail that. Hopefully, over time you will see more flexibility in you child and the tedious elements will lessen...

Good Luck,
-c

I have found this approach to be very helpful (way better than Nurtured Heart for us). If you are just starting, you are still very much in the developing skills stage and it will take a while before he is able to generalize them. Be patient and keep working on it.

Would anyone care to summarize this for those of us w/o the book?

I cannot adequately summarize it in a few words, but there is a lot of info here: http://www.livesinthebalance.org/

Thanks for this thread... I just put holds on Ross Greene's books at our library. My kids are a lot less explosive than they used to be, but I still think it'll be interesting reading.

I'll take a stab at summarizing.

Overarching idea: Kids do well if they can. If they melt down, it's not because they are defiant, it's because they can't do whatever it is they are being asked to do.

Explosions stem from predictable problems, that appear under predictable circumstances, that generally stem from lagging skills. For example, my DD9 is very cognitively rigid, and has a great deal of difficulty coping when her day does not go the way she expected it would. To get rid of the explosions, you need to support learning the lagging skills.

The best time to solve problems is not in the middle of an explosion, but well beforehand.

The framework for solving problems before they happen has three steps: 1. Empathy - get the child's take on what his needs are that are not being met in the situation. 2. [Can't remember the assigned name of this one] Get the adult's concerns with the existing pattern of behavior on the table. 3. [Can't remember this name, either] Brainstorm solutions, and test them by seeing if they meet both the child's needs and the adult's needs.

That's a good summary. I like to think of it as "treating your kid like an adult and negotiating with him."

Have you had success with DD9?

This has worked well for us with sibling conflict, but not as much with some of our other concerns, probably because those are a bit outside of the typical behavior concerns the model is designed for. (We have a lot of problems with idiopathic rudeness/anger, which isn't a "She wants X and we want Y" situation.)

Yes. We have found that, for all we went into parenting wanting to be those gentle negotiating parents, our DS did much better with a parent who is transparently in charge. We had to change our style to get him to behave and learn.

There is no one method that will work for every kid, IMO.

DeeDee

The truly challenging thing is that there is no one method that will work with every kid in a single family. You think you have it figured out and pop, new kid, new style required...

This fits with our (EA program) recent Autism training (applies to non-spectrum kids too) that behaviour communicates something. It's not defiance, but rather an effort to communicate a need or want (security, understanding, desire for avoidance or escape, etc etc).

We spent several classes analyzing behaviour: setting events (what the child brings to the situation, like poor sleep, hunger, etc); antecedent or trigger (what sets the behaviour off), function (what the child is trying to achieve with the behaviour) and consequence (did the child get what he/she wanted/needed). Awesome... very useful parenting stuff.

I'm guessing the collaborative problem solving aspect to Ross Greene's approach might be similar? I'm looking forward to reading the book.

Taking a generalization and treating it as axiomatic rarely leads to success.

Sure, a kid might melt down because they can't do what they're being asked. Or:

1) They just think they can't do it.
2) They don't want to do it, and melting down is a deliberate act, because it has been proven to be a useful avoidance strategy in the past.
3) There's a physical problem involved (tired/sick/injured/uncomfortable/etc.).
4) There's a negative emotion involved (fear/anger/boredom/resentment/embarassment/etc.).

And that's just off the top of my head, feel free to add more.

Dude, in each of your examples there would be a counterpoint skill to learn. It isn't the specific thing to be done that is necessarily the skill that needs help.
1) Think they can't do it? = Need better skills at self assessing
2) Avoidance = Skills for coping with doing things one doesn't enjoy; maybe long range perspective
3) Physical problem = better communicate their physical state?
4) Negative emotion = skills in managing emotions

So, my DS7 has problems with choices. He wants an alternative choice to his options, but he can't generate his own list of options. So we are frequently making lists and he adds an additional item that he selects. There different challenging reactions when there aren't choices or if he has to make up his own choice.

We could play blind man's buff, force him to say what he wants and then tell him no if it isn't acceptable. That's a long road to trek, but is one that many neurotypical kids may need to follow. But DS can't easily internalize something without understanding it. So, he needs improved exectuive functioning to help him generate reasonable choices.

Example, deciding on dessert... me "what would you like for dessert?", him "I don't know, what are the choices?" me "Well, you ate your whole dinner and it was fairly healthy, but you had seconds so you probably don't have a lot of room... how about two cookies or a scoop of ice cream?" him "maybe I am kinda full, could I have one cookie and then a piece of gum?" me "Sure, good choice"

I think that fits the concept of "he want to do good, but needs more skills." Maybe it isn't obstinance, maybe it is a very active sort of self-learning on executive function. Without testing his basis of creating an option, the reasoning doesn't sink in for him.

To be fair, Greene admits that his labels are not instructive. "Kids do well if they can" could be renamed "Kids perform only to the limits of their abilities". Communication and problem solving are two of those abilities.

Then the skill they can't do is risk trying, or accurately assess their own skills.
I think this is the one that Ross Greene thinks just doesn't happen. I'm not 100% sure he's right about that, but he has a pretty impressive track record with kids in juvenile detention facilities and other situations where you would think that there would be a reasonable incidence of this.
The the issue is not "can't do it" generally, but "can't do it when I'm tired/sick/injured/uncomfortable," but they still can't do it.
See #3.

Yes, although it's not by any means an unequivocal success. We're still trying to find a way to get her to successfully wash her hair, for instance. It helps me remember that "I don't like having something slimy on my hands" is a real and legitimate complaint, even if it doesn't apply to me, and we have to actually work around it or build the skill to tolerate it, instead of just telling her to do it anyway and expecting instant compliance.

Good to hear. My explosive 9yo has no sense of time and struggles with transitions. Naturally, the transitions from something fun to something not so fun are hard for him and can lead to meltdowns. We try to negotiate a time with him (e.g., 5 more minutes of video games then take a shower) and remind him of that time once or twice.

This is not an ideal approach but seems to work better than being forceful, which leads to a 2-hour argument or meltdown.

BSM, have you tried using a small digital timer, placed where he can see it?

Yes, that helps to some extent but he still stretches everything out. We usually need to remind him once or twice to get him moving.

BSM,
Does your son have his own digital watch with countdown timer and the ability to set alarms?

My DS7 has a poor time sense, but can be quite obsessive about obeying a timer that he sets himself. If he never develops a good timesense, he will hopefully always have that as a mechanic to manage his time. If he misses a schedule, then the discussion is about how to improve his tool use (set the timer for 5 minutes before bath time) or improving his decision making (a level takes three minutes, I have two minutes left I should stop now)rather than changing the schedule.

lol... oops missed ultramarina's while I was typing a response

His own digital watch is an even better idea. (My DD would never agree to wear a digital watch--she doesn't like the way they look.)

I've also considered getting a visual timer, like these:

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Timer-LLC-8%2522-Inch/dp/B000J5OFW0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363120392&sr=8-1&keywords=visual+timer

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Reso...=1363120392&sr=8-6&keywords=visual+timer

I would recommend against that specific model. I bought it last summer with high hopes, but while it does work as advertized it takes more than a minute to change the time .

Fine if you want to always use it for a given interval, hell if you want to use it for very different things (you have 30mn to do your homework, we are leaving in 5 minutes, you need to read for 20mn...) as you have to go through a rather lengthy set-up sequence every. single. time.

A deal breaker for us. It has been used twice and collected dust since then.

If you need a simple timer, we love the VisTimer app. We have it on the iphones and ipads. It's fast to set and change the time you want to measure. It has audio cues (early cues if you want as a warning). It has a minute/second countdown and it also makes a visual circle of the time that slowly disappears as time passes for a visual cue. We were going to buy the Learning Resources timer but found this to be much cheaper and way more portable!

This solves it for my DS8. I'll say "15 more minutes then it's brush teeth (or whatever) time."

After the time elapses, he's usually (like, 90% of the time) totally fine. If we don't warn him, sometimes he's fine too, or sometimes I'll hear "you forgot to warn me!!" This usually occurs if there's a secondary reason, like he's tired, has a cold, etc. Then, depending what the issue is and the time involved, I'll either say "ok, five more minutes" or "sorry bud - sometimes in life you don't get a warning." Then he'll say "aw!!" and pretend pout, but comply.

(We use the timer on the stove, or one of those twisty egg timers, or the timer function on one of their iPods)

Yeah, I was actually thinking there was surely a great app for this purpose. (No iPads/smartphones in our house.)

I think most ALL kids (and adults!)are capable of having a meltdown/tantrum/whatever, if they think that will get them off the hook or get them what they want etc, if other "approaches" aren't working for them!!

I know several autistic kids who do this- and I would venture to say that for these kids it is a "learned behavior" b/c when they have a tantrum? when they explode/act out? The mom gives in. Every time! And even if she doesn't give in, she still in a way does- b/c while she is yelling or arguing with kiddo- he's still doing just what he wanted to be still doing- usually playing a video game or maybe not wanting to go inside a building etc.

*I'm not trying to get into parenting debate or that these gals may need gentle reminders that consistency /following thru etc is important, ***trust me- I tell them! (very gently and only if they ask my opinion/advice)

Also, yes agree that #1 is setting clear goals/outcomes in way child understands, then following through- but for outbursts etc, finding the kids TRIGGER- very important. And then learning what works best to avoid setting that trigger off, o how to get around it or even get thru it.

For my DS6 when younger if he started to show increased signs of anxiety, there was always a trigger.

I think I got off topic....
Anyways, Thank you for book suggestion,
I'm going to check this out from library also, I love reading new stuff,new ideas. Can always learn something new that will be helpful

ah, I should add that I didn't mean that is ONLY reason these kids would have outburst! Just that most are "capable" of that.

I agree that this can sometimes be the case. Then you have kids like my DS8. I have never given in to a tantrum. If you speak with him when he is calm he can analyze history and tell you that when he has a tantrum he gets none of what he wants and it leads to a worse outcome for him. He doesn't get to do the activity he was doing while he tantrums- as I physically stop it (turn off tv, take by hand and remove, etc...). YET- he only recently at 8 has stopped having tantrums on a regular basis. Transitions just are hard for him. Setting clear expectations, giving "almost time" warnings and remaining calm in the face of his disappointment are key for us- but even then we have no guarantee he won't melt. Thankfully, age seems to be an issue and he is slowly coming to a point of maturity where we can begin to sigh a little breath of relief.

2. Define the problem or concern (of both parties... if the child's concern is ignored it won't work, so both adult and child concern must be identified)
3. Invitation (invite the child to contribute ideas for a solution)

...just reading about it now

Actually I'm reading "Lost at School" in which he covers the same principal, but more for teachers than parents. The scenarios he demonstrate involve classroom students, and the CPS process includes the school team, student and parents.

Same principles though. It occurred to me as I'm reading that I think one of the reasons my kids are less explosive than they used to be is because I've tried to be more collaborative with them in general. I'm still more of a "plan A, impose my will" type of person, but I've discovered by trial and error that if we talk about what's upsetting them, and if I just shut up and LISTEN (lol), it works wonders.

A very wise EA friend of mine put me on this path when my two kids were toddlers... if one of them would be acting out, she'd offer an explanation as to why... rather than offering a suggestion of how to control it. This combined with the theory that "every behaviour communicates something" (autism training) has been really enlightening. So the "step 1, empathy" and "step 3, invitation" were already in place for us. What I need to work on is defining what the key concern is for each behaviour.

For instance, this morning DS8 didn't want to make his own breakfast. On the surface, that appears to be the concern, but in reality there's a "why" beneath that, which I need to focus more on, rather than reverting to plan A... (turns out he just didn't feel like doing it - I can definitely relate to that). We spent about 3-4 minutes discussing why he didn't think he should do it, and then finally I said "You know, if you'd just gone into the kitchen and made breakfast rather than trying to get out of having to do it, you'd be eating right now." ...he then said "Fiiine! ok." and went into the kitchen. Not exactly like the book illustrates, but there was no meltdown I think the key was that I heard him out and validated his feelings.

I can't figure out a simple quote- sad.

so via old timey copy/paste
"every behaviour communicates something" (autism training) has been really enlightening.

CCN- That is how I was told to approach any issues with DS, advice from adaptive skills lead therapist. He has more typical "i'm a 6 yo boy and this is how we sometimes act/behave" issues- I have to remind myself, yes, he may have autism, but he is also a 6yo boy- vs the mind boggling meltdowns... He's never been a tantrum thrower. Still, because of that excellent advice, I learned to observe what his "triggers" were, and to therefore step in as needed by providing a "cue"---

IDK if you read what I wrote above, but the kids I observed throwing tantrum were autistic kids yes, but choosing to behave this way and able to stop it. The "trigger" for them would be they didn't get what they wanted, so they continued till parent gave in. To me that is not the same thing as what you are describing CCN. (except maybe the behavior should clue the parent in to fact they need more effective parenting? That said, no one is perfect, and these parents I know, are trying. They don't like the Dx, and tend to "baby" the kids or spoil them, so this becomes more a learned behavior on kids part vs a real tantrum.) (at least in my opinion)

Right... so the behavior would, on the most obvious level, communicate their desire to "obtain" ...that they wanted whatever it was that they were having a tantrum over.

Behavior communicating something doesn't have to mean the behavior is involuntary.

On another level, it could communicate that they didn't feel comfortable without whatever it was that they wanted, and hadn't been taught yet to regulate those feelings.

On another level still, it could communicate a need for control and a learned ability to obtain control ("I'm going to tantrum to control this adult because it's worked for me in the past")

Etc etc.

In this case ultimately you'd have the best judgement, because you observed the behaviors directly. Meanwhile I'm just saying that there could be more to any given behavior than what is immediately apparent.

I've seen this with a great many kids over the years, and none of them have been diagnosed as autistic, as far as I know. As I said before, one reason a kid might throw a tantrum is because it's a useful strategy.

Think about it...

1) Lacking any other methods for communicating frustration, baby cries.
2) Parent solves problem.
3) Baby learns that crying leads to solutions.

Then, later...

1) Baby can't reach dangerous thing (let's say, hot frying pan), and cries.
2) Parent notices, rejects the problem.
3) Baby cries louder.
4) Parent bribes child to stop crying (let's say, with a cookie).
5) Baby learns that louder crying leads to unexpected rewards.

And then...

1) Toddler asks for a cookie.
2) Parent declines.
3) Toddler employs lesson learned from before, cries loudly.
4) Parent gets angry, yells.
5) Toddler cries even louder.
6) Parent yells louder.
7) Toddler continues escalating.
8) Parent eventually relents, gives toddler a cookie.
9) Toddler learns that sometimes getting what you want just means putting in a little more effort.

This, in a nutshell, is how so many kids arrive at the "terrible twos." The parents basically teach their children one thing regarding interpersonal relationships, and then suddenly change the rules, because "You need to act your age." This creates a huge conflict, because the child does not understand the new rules of the game, or why there should be new rules to begin with. Some of the tantrums that follow are calculated, and some are general frustration with the fact that everything they thought they knew about how to deal with parents is flawed. This goes on as long as tantrums sometimes work as they did before, and sometimes don't, so the child has to keep experimenting in order to explore the nuances.

And then there are the parents who continue giving in to their kids well beyond the terrible twos. It may not look like a temper tantrum by the time the kid is 11, because then it might morph into constant badgering until the parent gives up to get a little peace.

Kids in the early stages have no way of learning pro-social behaviors, except by trial and error. And the natural reaction is to give them wide latitude in our reactions to them, which unfortunately, teaches them an array of anti-social behaviors on accident. The only way to avoid that is to be constantly asking yourself, "What is my child learning through this interaction? And how does that differ from what I want to teach?"

So yeah, people look at me funny (if not horrified) when I say we put our DD on timeout as early as 6 mos of age, but she learned to take no for an answer pretty quickly, and as a 2yo, she was a delight to take out in public.

Of course all interactions are at first modelled behaviors and communicative and then finally contributors to any sort of operant conditioning. Then the operant conditioning depends on correct interpretation of motivation combined with a meaningful, scaled, and non-satiated pairing of consequence. And it only gets even more complicated if the kid's really smart.