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    Joined: Sep 2012
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    cc6 Offline
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    I can't figure out a simple quote- sad.

    so via old timey copy/paste smile
    "every behaviour communicates something" (autism training) has been really enlightening.

    CCN- That is how I was told to approach any issues with DS, advice from adaptive skills lead therapist. He has more typical "i'm a 6 yo boy and this is how we sometimes act/behave" issues- I have to remind myself, yes, he may have autism, but he is also a 6yo boy- vs the mind boggling meltdowns... He's never been a tantrum thrower. Still, because of that excellent advice, I learned to observe what his "triggers" were, and to therefore step in as needed by providing a "cue"---

    IDK if you read what I wrote above, but the kids I observed throwing tantrum were autistic kids yes, but choosing to behave this way and able to stop it. The "trigger" for them would be they didn't get what they wanted, so they continued till parent gave in. To me that is not the same thing as what you are describing CCN. (except maybe the behavior should clue the parent in to fact they need more effective parenting? That said, no one is perfect, and these parents I know, are trying. They don't like the Dx, and tend to "baby" the kids or spoil them, so this becomes more a learned behavior on kids part vs a real tantrum.) (at least in my opinion)


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    CCN Offline
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    Originally Posted by cc6
    IDK if you read what I wrote above, but the kids I observed throwing tantrum were autistic kids yes, but choosing to behave this way and able to stop it. The "trigger" for them would be they didn't get what they wanted, so they continued till parent gave in.

    Right... so the behavior would, on the most obvious level, communicate their desire to "obtain" ...that they wanted whatever it was that they were having a tantrum over.

    Behavior communicating something doesn't have to mean the behavior is involuntary.

    On another level, it could communicate that they didn't feel comfortable without whatever it was that they wanted, and hadn't been taught yet to regulate those feelings.

    On another level still, it could communicate a need for control and a learned ability to obtain control ("I'm going to tantrum to control this adult because it's worked for me in the past")

    Etc etc.

    In this case ultimately you'd have the best judgement, because you observed the behaviors directly. Meanwhile I'm just saying that there could be more to any given behavior than what is immediately apparent.

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    Originally Posted by cc6
    IDK if you read what I wrote above, but the kids I observed throwing tantrum were autistic kids yes, but choosing to behave this way and able to stop it. The "trigger" for them would be they didn't get what they wanted, so they continued till parent gave in.

    I've seen this with a great many kids over the years, and none of them have been diagnosed as autistic, as far as I know. As I said before, one reason a kid might throw a tantrum is because it's a useful strategy.

    Think about it...

    1) Lacking any other methods for communicating frustration, baby cries.
    2) Parent solves problem.
    3) Baby learns that crying leads to solutions.

    Then, later...

    1) Baby can't reach dangerous thing (let's say, hot frying pan), and cries.
    2) Parent notices, rejects the problem.
    3) Baby cries louder.
    4) Parent bribes child to stop crying (let's say, with a cookie).
    5) Baby learns that louder crying leads to unexpected rewards.

    And then...

    1) Toddler asks for a cookie.
    2) Parent declines.
    3) Toddler employs lesson learned from before, cries loudly.
    4) Parent gets angry, yells.
    5) Toddler cries even louder.
    6) Parent yells louder.
    7) Toddler continues escalating.
    8) Parent eventually relents, gives toddler a cookie.
    9) Toddler learns that sometimes getting what you want just means putting in a little more effort.

    This, in a nutshell, is how so many kids arrive at the "terrible twos." The parents basically teach their children one thing regarding interpersonal relationships, and then suddenly change the rules, because "You need to act your age." This creates a huge conflict, because the child does not understand the new rules of the game, or why there should be new rules to begin with. Some of the tantrums that follow are calculated, and some are general frustration with the fact that everything they thought they knew about how to deal with parents is flawed. This goes on as long as tantrums sometimes work as they did before, and sometimes don't, so the child has to keep experimenting in order to explore the nuances.

    And then there are the parents who continue giving in to their kids well beyond the terrible twos. It may not look like a temper tantrum by the time the kid is 11, because then it might morph into constant badgering until the parent gives up to get a little peace.

    Kids in the early stages have no way of learning pro-social behaviors, except by trial and error. And the natural reaction is to give them wide latitude in our reactions to them, which unfortunately, teaches them an array of anti-social behaviors on accident. The only way to avoid that is to be constantly asking yourself, "What is my child learning through this interaction? And how does that differ from what I want to teach?"

    So yeah, people look at me funny (if not horrified) when I say we put our DD on timeout as early as 6 mos of age, but she learned to take no for an answer pretty quickly, and as a 2yo, she was a delight to take out in public.

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    Of course all interactions are at first modelled behaviors and communicative and then finally contributors to any sort of operant conditioning. Then the operant conditioning depends on correct interpretation of motivation combined with a meaningful, scaled, and non-satiated pairing of consequence. And it only gets even more complicated if the kid's really smart.

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