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Joined: Sep 2009
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I recently recieved the CogAT scrores for DS7.5 who is in second grade. It is confusing for me as the raw score does not look that great but he scored 99 percentile agewise and 98 gradewise. DS7.5 told me after the test that he had not seen those kind of questions earlier and some of the questions made him think hard.
Please help me understand this better. It will help me make an informed decision on the right school environment for my son.
Thanks.
Last edited by joys; 03/15/13 04:31 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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It looks like your son is a pretty smart cookie --- BUT so are a LOT of his school mates! This is a good thing, he's likely got lots of smart kiddos around him.
As for the right school environment, are you thinking of moving him? Is he having any issues currently in school? Complaining of being bored? Acting out? If he's not having any issues it looks like he's a pretty good school, from a scores perspective.
~amy
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I can post a link later when I'm at a computer not a phone, but the CogAT doesn't claim to be an intelligence or IQ test. It is more designed as a test of a child's likelihood of fitting well in school in terms of his likelihood of being a high achiever b/c he has mastered the skills that predict school success. I mention this for two reasons:
1) You won't get a definitive answer on intellectual giftedness from the CogAT although the SAS # you were given does correlate with IQ for some people much the way older versions of the SAT did.
2) The unusually high number of kids in your local area who scored so highly tells me that either you've got a lot of high achievers locally and possibly more gifted kids than typical or that there is a lot of prepping going on for this test in your schools or privately by parents.
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Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
@epoh, yes, we are thinking of changing schools. He liked his school and not complaining. The reasons for changing school are different. We are hoping that he'll like his new school as well.
@Cricket, we haven't tested DS's IQ as the need didn't arise. On prepping, I have heard from people about parents prepping their kids year after year and also months in advance, I personally don't know how much truth is to that. This was the first time DS took this test and he mentioned that the questions were very different than what he had been exposed to in his school so he had to think. Did his school help in building those skills indirectly, may be, specially true if those skills are required to finish the school work.
CogAT is used in screening for gifted students in our district. With so many kids scoring higher than norm in our area, including my son, I wonder whether the test is actually a good identifier of the kids who are really Gifted. I doubt that there can be so many gifted kids living in a single area.
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Joys, I certainly didn't mean to imply that your ds isn't gifted. He very well may be. I just don't love these group screener tests as the means of testing for giftedness. I've seen these types of tests fall three ways: -the group test scores lines up pretty well with IQ -the IQ score is considerably higher than the group test score (common with 2e kids and more likely with HG+ kids b/c they can also be pretty out of the box thinkers and that group tests score highly for convergent thinking) -the IQ score is considerably lower than the group test score The last of the three I think tends to happen when the child was either prepped a lot for the group test, retested until s/he got the desired score, or when s/he is just a good test taker/high achiever, but not gifted. The few links that I think are helpful in considering giftedness and its assessment via group tests like the CogAT are: http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/support.htmlQ: Does CogAT measure students' innate abilities?
A: No. All abilities are developed through experience. CogAT measures students' abilities to reason with words, quantitative concepts, and nonverbal (spatial) pictures. These abilities are developed through experiences in school and outside of school.
Q: Is CogAT an IQ test? Are SAS scores IQ scores?
A: No. CogAT measures reasoning abilities. Although these abilities are central to all definitions of intelligence, the word intelligence implies much more. However, psychologists have never agreed on the definition of intelligence, so how much more should be included in an intelligence test is often debated. Further, the notion of IQ comes from an earlier set of procedures for indexing the rate of mental development. CogAT does not use these procedures. The SAS scale used on CogAT provides normalized Standard Age Scores for that fraction of the population that attends school. Although SAS scores are very helpful for professionals, nonprofessionals can confuse them with IQ scores, so they are generally not reported to parents and lay organizations. Percentile ranks and stanines are better suited for general audiences. This one addresses questions from teachers and parents about CogAT scores coming in considerably lower than WISC scores. http://www.riversidepublishing.com/products/cogAt/pdf/CogSpe_v59-28-11.pdfThis one gives info on what the newest version of the CogAT measures such as [bolding mine]: All levels have three independent batteries:
Verbal, Quantitative, and Nonverbal. These batteries measure the student’s learned reasoning abilities in the three areas most closely related to success in school. Users can administer one, two, or all three batteries, depending on their needs and the needs of their students. The examples at the end do show how divergent thinking gifted kids could score below their ability, for example: The fastest runner ___ the race, with the correct multiple choice answer presumably being "wins." I could see arguments being made for 'the fastest runner "makes" the race' or possibly other options as well, though, and not be indicative of lesser intelligence. i.e. - the race is worth watching due to the amazing fastest runner, he "made" the race. http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htmThe most common group intelligence tests, OLSAT and CogAT, are used in districts and programs across the country. Notable gifted professionals recommend them for screening potentially gifted children. However, a small study noted a potential problem with the OLSAT and very gifted children. While the correlation between group and individual intelligence tests is quite high for average scores, in this study that correlation almost disappeared for gifted scores. This means that while an average child will score very similarly on a group IQ test and an individual IQ test, a gifted child may not score similarly at all. And the study suggests that this group test may even result in a negative correlation for some gifted children: the more gifted the child, the lower the group ability test score! ["Investigations of the Otis-Lennon School Ability Test to Predict WISC-R Full Scale IQ for Referred Children" by Anna H. Avant and Marcia R. O'Neal, University of Alabama, Nov. 1986, ED286883] Though this study is no longer available from AskERIC, it can be obtained on microfiche from most education university libraries.
A 2001 study using the OLSAT noted a problem with the OLSAT and twice exceptional (gifted and learning disabled) students. A Comparison of the WISC-III and the Otis-Lennon School Ability Test with Students Referred for Learning Disabilities, by Thomas Guilmette et. al., Providence College and Brown University School of Medicine, showed that LD kids tended to score an average of 7.5 points lower on the OLSAT than their WISC-III full scale IQ scores. This study is available in the Journal of Psychoeducational Assessment, or for a few dollars from SAGE Publications on the 'net.
"The use of the OLSAT-6 in estimating overall intellectual abilities in children with suspected learning disabilities is not encouraged because it may frequently underestimate students' actual abilities, which may result in fewer appropriate referrals for further educational and intellectual abilities." "As with previous studies with gifted students, our research indicates that the OLSAT-6 appears to underestimate WISC-III FSIQ." -- Guilmette et. al., A Comparison of the WISC-III and the Otis-Lennon School Ability Test with Students Referred for Learning Disabilities Ultimately, regardless of my personal dislike of these group tests, if your ds is gifted and there aren't actually 30+% of the kids in your district in the top 1-2% nationally in terms of ability, he may wind up needing something beyond the regular classroom.
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@Cricket, thanks a lot for the valuable information. I was told by other parents that it is very difficult to get into the gifted program without preparing your child. We didn't do prep other than the regular reading comprehension.
I am not so sure if my son is Gifted or not. I was counting on the CogAT to give me more info to decide if we need to seek furthur evaluation. When I look at the characteristics of gifted, I find him more in the HG or PG range but his CogAT score is not that great to believe that. I would think that an HG or PG kid would score much better than my son.
DS is not a good test-taker, his school hardly administer any tests. But he needs challenges than the regular school work, thats very obvious with the projects he does at home by himself and the gifted program is our best bet now. But DS is very creative and I do not know how much creativity is valued in such programs.
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Wow. We recently moved from a very "smart" district. The high school is regularly either first or second in the country. It used to be that about 15% of the second graders in the district would score 99% on the nationally normed CogAT. They also use a nonverbal test. I think it is called the NNAT. In the end something like 30% of the population were eligible for some kind of gifted services. This year I heard they were doing things differently with the CogAT to try to accurately tease the top 5% in the district for the gifted magnet schools. So, I think it is district-normed now. This school district is also having a hard time with prepping.
The stories I hear are crazy, and I am so glad we do not have to deal with that.
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I was counting on the CogAT to give me more info to decide if we need to seek furthur evaluation. When I look at the characteristics of gifted, I find him more in the HG or PG range but his CogAT score is not that great to believe that. I would think that an HG or PG kid would score much better than my son. Not at all! My younger dd took the WISC-IV, an individual IQ test, and the CogAT a few months apart when she was 7-8 yrs old. Fortunately she took the IQ test first or I might have been inclined like you to think that she was bright, maybe eligible for GT programming, but not way out of the norm. She did quite well on the non-verbal part of the CogAT and fine but not as high as your ds likely did on the other two parts. On the WISC her composite score was above DYS minimum levels although she probably is more HG than PG. She is also 2e and probably the source of my dislike of the CogAT - lol! If your ds seems HG, I'd see nothing in his CogAT scores that would belie that. Does he at least qualify for GT programming? I would think that he should. Also keep in mind that the CogAT is not designed with the level of specificity to tease out 99 from something above 99.
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@Cricket, I learnt now that this Cogat was a level up- designed for third graders and likes. Not sure how local stanine is calculated though- does it include only 2nd graders who appear for a level up test or does it include third graders as well.
I guess, I have been thinking too much about this score thing. I must admit, that a part of me was wishing that we should have prepared him and he would have had better chance. We have not been working with DS academically since last few years as when we used to do acads (not much though, just exposing him to new stuff every now and then) he was jumping ahead by leaps and bounds and it was scaring me specially, so we hardly do anything other than the regular reading and the small discussion afterwards so I get sense of what he is reading and he gets the sense that I am interested in his learning. I don't know if we are doing justice to him as he enjoys reading, math, science, history, all kinds of books and materials. But over the time, we have been spending our energy to have him develop different interests other than academics as we know he would come to it if he enjoys it.
I am not sure if he'll qualify for the gifted program or not as I am yet to hear back but I am trying to prepare myself either way. I need to have a backup plan. I don't want him to be bored at school or become careless just because the stuff they are teaching is too easy for him.
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I believe that the publisher of the CogAT recommends testing out of level (i.e. using a test designed for a higher grade level) when looking for high ability. Our schools don't do that but it isn't a bad idea b/c it raises the ceiling such that a few missed questions don't mean the difference btwn a really high score and a much lower score. For instance, when you are testing kids who are expected to be near as high as the test goes, they need to be virtually flawless (missing no questions) to get a 99th percentile score. On a higher level test, a missed question or two or three won't drop your score from the 99th to the 90th b/c it is expected that even really able kids won't know everything on the higher level test.
The norms you got should be as compared to 2nd graders who took the 3rd grade test locally and nationally and the age percentile should be as compared to kids his age who took the 3rd grade test.
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joys, I am another parent who has an EG kiddo (per WISC/WJ-III Cog testing) who didn't score all that highly on the CogAT... that's neither here nor there re your child, but one thing I am curious about - are you going to have an opportunity to ask your questions to the person who administered the test? I would expect you should be able to do that, especially given that his local stanine is so much lower than his grade/age stanines.
Also, fwiw, in our school district the CogAT is used as a *screen* for the gifted program, but children who test above the bar on the CogAT are then also given a second ability test. You could ask if your district would do the same for your ds (or if they do that routinely).... jmo, but a true ability test such as WISC would most likely give you more/better info re your ds' innate strengths and abilities (at least it would be interesting to see!).
polarbear
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@cricket2, thanks. You explained the scoring very well. Now I have a much clear picture.
@polarbear, I am trying to communicate to the person who administer the test but they are slow in responding. Unfortunately our district focuses on academic achievement so an IQ test is totally out of the scope.
Even though I want my son to get into this program so that he will be challenged, I think I'll be much happier if he can be accomodated in regular classroom. That hasn't happened so far, hence my hope is on gifted program. But at the same time, I am scared labeling my son due to various reasons but there doesn't seem a way out. So far we have been encouraging him in other non-acads areas so that he'll have a well-rounded personality. Over the time he has developed various interests other than the books and we again don't want him to get into the mode where books are his world. Its ok, if they are just a part but we don't want him to be surrounded by books or talking about math all the time.
We haven't done an IQ test due to many reasons, but major one is we don't want him to think that he is over\above others just because he can do advanced math or read above his age. We have put a lot of effort in order for him to have balanced approach towards life. One of my fear about gifted programs is we don't want him to be surrounded by the high-achievers all the time that he stops to appreciate the gifts of non-achievers. Also if the kids are really that smart seeing so many of them scoring so high, and if he gets in then we don't want him to feel dumb either. But then is acceleratin possible in regular classroom?
Thats what I wonder about all the time.
Sorry about rambling..
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In my PG DS's experience, there is 30+ points difference between Cogat and WISC scores.
His Cogat scores made him dis-qualified for our school math accelerated program. It was quite a shock for me. I talked to the gifted teacher. She told me that DS is lack of problem solving skills, critical thinking skill and blah... I really doubt it since DS played chess so well and was top 3 players in our state at his grade level. If he is lack of critial thinking skill, he would not be able to do it. Then I happened to talk to another parent of PG child who plays chess and has 30+ points of discrepency between Cogat & IQ. She suggested IQ test for DS. That is how we found out DS is actually PG.
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My DD9 CoGat score was about 10 points lower then her actual Wisc score. Because of this, she also did not qualify for gifted services. Ds7 will not be tested on CoGat until next year. CoGat is the only test given to qualify for gifted services in our district. To qualify for the CoGat, the kids need to be in the 95th percentile on NWEA MAP reading and math. The district does use WISC for the self contained magnet program.
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