Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Help with Stanford Binet scores

Is it just with the WISC IV that you can get a GAI? Or can you get a GAI with the Stanford Binet? Last year he took the Wisc and the school just admintered the Stanford Binet... I am kind of bummed becasue I understand the WISC IV but I am not as knowlegeable about the SB and so can;t seem to compare whether he improved in certain areas or if there is still a 44 point gap necessitating a GAI. With the WISC IV last year they had to do a GAI...

Also, what is considered a "gifted score" on the SB5 ? Is it different form the WISC IV?

It looks like there 23 point difference between scores. He scored in the 97% for fluid reasoning but in the 66% for working memory and visual spatial reasoning. So wondering if that means anything in terms of a GAI?

As far as I understand, there is no equivalent to the GAI on the SB. The composite scores that can be figured are:

Full Scale IQ which includes all 10 subtests

Abbreviated Battery IQ which only includes some of the subtests but would not be any better of an estimate for a child with significant discrepancies.

Nonverbal IQ scale which only includes the five nonverbal subtests associated with each of five cognitive factors measured by SB-V. This is supposed to be used when assessing kids who have hearing loss, communication disorders, autism, specific learning disabilities.

Verbal IQ scale which only includes the five verbal subtests associated with each of the five cognitive factors measured by the SB-V. I'm less sure on when this type of configuration would be used in lieu of FSIQ.

eta: the full 10 subtests are
Fluid Reasoning
Verbal Knowledge
Verbal Quantitative Reasoning
Verbal Visual-Spatial Processing
Verbal Working Memory
and
Nonverbal Fluid Reasoning
Nonverbal Knowledge
Nonverbal Quantitative Reasoning
Nonverbal Visual-Spatial Processing
Nonverbal Working Memory

Did his scores vary within the non-verbal indices and verbal indices or would dropping on portion (verbal or non-verbal) make a big difference in dropping low scores? I.e. - were those low scores on memory and visual spatial in the non-verbal realm or the verbal realm or both? If they were just low on the verbal memory and visual-spatial, the non-verbal composite might be a better fit for him.

Hmmm interesting.... I only seem to have scores for
Fluid Reasoning
Verbal Knowledge
Verbal Quantitative Reasoning
Verbal Visual-Spatial Processing
Verbal Working Memory

I do have a non-verbal score but do not have delineated subtest scores for that - ie no Nonverbal Fluid Reasoning, Nonverbal Knowledge, etc....

I wonder why. I assume I can get them from her - obviously he must have taken them... Anyway the 23 point difference in socres that I see is between "Fluid reasoning" and "working memory" & "visual spatial processing" He got 129 on the fluid reasoning an 106 on working memory" and 106 on "visual spatial processing. I wish they had just used the WISC so I could comapre apples to apples!

If the spread is the same in both verbal and non-verbal, does that mean anything?

I was hoping that maybe the lower scores were all in the verbal or nonverbal subtests so the entire verbal or nonverbal sections could be dropped using one of those alternate means of calculating a composite IQ. It probably would be good to see if they would give you the breakdown for the nonverbal subtests to see if it is a consistent weakness in working memory, for instance, or just the verbal working memory.

I have some more info on what each of the subtests looks at at home. I'll try to find some time when I'm home this evening to post more info on that.

Okay more info - his visual/spatial scores and working memory scores were exactly the same in both verbal and non verbal - the scores are exactly the same and the spread is almost exactly the same.

marytheres, I don't know much of anything about the SB, but fwiw, when our ds was tested by the school he was given the WJ-III Test of Cognitive Abilities, which I also knew nothing about at the time... so what I did was google "(test name) + description of subtests" and I was able to find detailed info about each subtest, what it tested plus how it was administered (prompt+response+timed/untimed). That was enough info for me to figure out how to compare subtests between the WISC and the WJ-III. I'm guessing you're interested in seeing if the scores dependent on vision have improved since he's been through VT? My ds had a low coding speed on the WISC - the corresponding WJ-III test that relies on fine motor (my ds' challenge) wasn't named "coding" but it was easy to see in his scores - there was that same huge dip (BUT.... there was no reason to anticipate that my ds' score might have gone up so I was expecting to see the dip). In some ways, I felt it showed up more clearly and well-defined on the WJ-III than on the WISC.

Re what's considered gifted on the SB vs WISC etc - I'm sorry I don't have the direct link, but I think that there is an article on Hoagies that gives a breakdown for each IQ test with ranges for moderately vs highly vs profoundly etc. You can also see what Davidson considers the 99.9th mark as a comparison if you look at the DYS qualifying criteria page here.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks Polarbear! Yes I want to compare how he performs in the WISC now that he has VT and I want a nice neat apples to apples comparison LOL I also really understand the WISC now but not the SB-V. I guess on a good note this means I can still take him to neuropsych to get the WISC ... it's not like I have to wait a year. The school gave my sson A LOT of tests... I can't complain about that. They gave him the WJ III too ... let me look at those scores...

Just be aware that the WJ III can be either another IQ test or an achievement test depending on which version they gave him- the WJ Cognitive (the IQ version) or the WJ achievement.

Eta: re your earlier question as to what is considered a gifted score on the SB V, I believe that Deborah Ruf, who uses that test a lot with gifted kids, considers something around a FSIQ of 123 or 125 to be MG on the SB V.

Thanks Cricket, that was helpful because it looks like he was given the WJ III achievement. It's interesting because all of his scores indicate that he achievement levels are one grade or higher than his actual grade (1st) but his "percentile scores" seem "average"... I wonder if the percentiles are based on age and not grade? I do think the school psych mentioned the last he was given achievement testing his scores were so high that they couldn't see problems so this time she would compare him seven year olds rather than with his first grade peers (6 year olds)...

Anyway, here are his scores if it is helpful, he is in the middle of first grade:

Letter word ID: 2.9 grade equivalent

Reading Fluency: 1.8 grade equivalent

Broad Math: 2.5 grade equivalent
(he constantly complains that he is bored in math class and hates it because of that, he has also been chastised and has gotten in trouble for working ahead... this is one of the reasons why I would like to see him get some gifted classes/gifted pull-out or something b/c he is beginning to hate math because he actually loves it and needs to go faster or be more challenged.)

Math calculation: 2.3 grade equivalent

Math fluency: 2.0 grade equivalent (fluency always is a problem)

Spelling: 1.5 grade equivalent (this is consistently his worse "subject" - in school, on the wais last year, on the SB-V - he scores really low compared to how does everywhere else but (again another indicator of dyslexia/dysgraphia) but yet he is still scoring average/on-grade-level so people seem to brush it off)

Passage comprehension: 2.0 grade equivalent

Applied Problems: 2.3 grade equivalent

Word Attack: 2.2 grade equivalent

Broad Reading: 2.4 grade equivalents (really surprises me)


His SB V FISQ score is 120 and I read here: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm gifted is 124 on SB-V so he missed it by 4 points (Not because of his true intelligence but because of his working memory and processing AGAIN!) But I read here: http://www.brainy-child.com/experts/iq-score-confusion.shtml that gifted on SB-V is 120. I am not sure what my son's school's position on qualifying SB-V scores for their program.

I do not think my son is profoundly gifted but I do think he is definitely "gifted" and needs both some sort of help (like something is wrong such as dyslexia/dysgraphia or some sort of working memory/executive functioning disorder/deficit b/c that is getting in the way of his giftedness (and his scores) and real life functioning. I also think he needs gifted help because he is "bored" at school and the repetition and pace drives him crazy.

My quandary seems to be getting worse (and I guess this is a typical of 2e situation) ... I can't get him gifted help because SOMETHING is dragging his scores down in the WM and processing speed areas (and these scores do not seem to be just on the low side - it's a big dip! I kind-of don’t understand why educators and psychs don't seem to find it more alarming honestly) And I can't seem to get anyone to believe that he has some sort of learning obstacle because he scores so high. It's getting to be soooo frustrating. And I think I just look nuts - I look nuts for thinking he's gifted and I look nuts for thinking something is also wrong like a learning disability. But I just think his scatter between the two is so extreme and consistently extreme it means something... and we are all missing it.... And maybe that wouldn’t be a big deal in general except that I am very frightened that it is going to become a huge problem as he goes up in grades...

Been reading a number of old threads suggesting poor correspondence from WISC to SB5 on highly gifted kids. One article had research showing WISC scores were much more strongly correlated/predictive of actual HG performance (e.g. 12 year old who had recently passed a college course, scored EG on WISC but in the low 120s on SB5.)

I'm also considering a retest on WISC for DS7 as his very recent SB5 scores (also including a depressed visual-spatial ~105) and writing problems kept him from consideration for an HG program whereas a couple of GT coordinators and his WJ achievement scores and our experiences point otherwise.

The sb5 can have a "gifted composite" score calculated, which is similar to the gai in that it removes WMI.

For what it's worth my kids both score higher on the sb5, most notably in the visual spatial sections. Their verbal scores have only margin of error differences between the two tests.

Also of note the WM tests in the sb5 are different and for some people thy are easier. My eldest has a very poor working memory but does better on the sb5 style WM tests than the wisc.

This is very good information for me Mumofthree! Thanks... I will want to see the WMI on the his SB-V compared to the WISC from last year (se if he does better with one type of WM test over an another, etc...) and then I will definitely want him to a WIsC IV again this year. I will also want to push for getting that "gifted composite" score calculated - I strongly suspect that once the WM is removed he will be pretty squarely in the "gifted" category and hopefuly I can start getting him some services to address his gifted needs.

Oh cool! But I don't understand this part: " = 0.932Sum + 34.8" ... Does that mean I add up all of those subtests that you list then multiply the total by .932 and then add 36.4?

Oh nice you have software.... My son is 7 - he was exactly 7 years and 4 months old... he is in first grade becasue he just missed the September 1st cut-off.

I can list his scores for you... I'd like to calculate it myself so that I can say "well I did the calculation based on his equation and this is what I came up with for his gifted composite score." So I would still like to understand how the equation works...

Well you were close .... I get 125 using that equation... Bummer I mean bummer particularly in light of a strict 130 cut-off.

I can even begin to calculate his WJ III achievment but he is only working one grade level ahead, not two really (a few close to grade 3 here and there but mostly just one grade level ahead) so I am assuming that does nto qualify him for anything either.

In doing his scores I realize it is not just his working memory... his visual spatial skills are also very low ... Again, they were also very low last year in the WISC and I thought they would go up with his vision therapy. Of course I can't really measure how much he improved in either area, if at all, because I am having trouble comparing the two different tests.

Oh well... it is what it is I suppose.

Ooops I posted before I saw this... Thank you very much. Can I ask what district you are in? That story about the 129 was harsh! I don't think our district (our school really) is that harsh but I can see that even with a friendly, flexible administration he doesn't qualify to get any gifted services...

Thanks so much for all of your help! I am thankful he is very bright and having a much better experience this school year than last. I will just keep plugging along trying to figure out the working memory/executive function issues and such and hope he evens out more as he ages and continues with vision and occupational therapy.

I was told last year (by a different school in the district) that the district cut-off for gifted is 130 on WISC IV (we never discussed other tests and if they are different b/c I was told that *the* test they use is the WISC) and is state mandated. I was also told by the same psych that they allow in as low as 127 with appropriate achievement scores.

Now, we are in a new school in the same district (and this school is much more laid back, friendly, accomodating and much less 'by the book' than the last school). They also said the cut-off for WISC is 130 (I have no idea what it is for SB-V so not entirely sure it is the same but ...probably). And they told me that "it isn't just scores" - that they have a gifted teacher come in to obseerve and teach the kids 4 times over the year. When they told me this, they said it in a way (during my sons IEP) that made it seem like this brings more children in not less and that they wouldn't let DS' 'close-but-not-quite-scores' keep him out. This was the feeling they conveyed. Then I realized (and as someone pointed out here) this approach could be used as a way to keep even qualifyng socres out ... (sort of 'yeah he's gifted but he has too many issues or isn't a good rep for the program) - just because they put a positive face on it doesn't mean much. So I realized I can't feel too comfortable and it is very leikely it is not easy to get him in with any borderline scoring and the fact that he amy be brilliant verbally but don't ask him to write or tell you his "left from his right" Ha ha! Fortunately his vocab and speaking abilities do make most educators stop and comment on how intelligent he is so he doesn't 'look' too bad off but he sure doesn't look gifted when he has to write and every number and letter is backwards or up-side-down, copy any any kind of picture or shape, or tell you which is his left hand LOL - poor kid A friend of my once commented (way before I got any diagnosis or anything) "Your DS is astoundingly smart but can't seem to even write his name... it is so odd." Yes, yes it is.

Oh that is nice to hear! Luckily DS is only in first so there is always next year and the year after, etc...LOL maybe eventually that delayed part of his brain will at least catch up to average. LOL. Actually, he can still take the WISC this year, which leads me to my next thought/question. I am wondering about something. And perhaps I shoudl just PM you but... our district/school allegedly screens for gifted starting now (but they tell the parents nothing of this, probably 'cause they'd all go out and do "prep" courses it is seriously that kind of area ... I only know this b/c I am always chatting witth he school psych, etc. and extracting info lol). Anyway, what they do is "screen" all kids by giving them the OLSAT sometime this month. Then if the kid scores a certain number on the OLSAT those children get the WISC IV and based on the WISC scores they are "considered" for the gifted pull-out program. Since my kid got all of this testing in Januyary (but not OLSAT or WISC IV) will they still give him the OLSAT do you think? And what if he scores highh enough onit to get the WISC - will they still give him the WISC even though he just took the SB-V and does not (probably) qualify for gifted anyway with the SB-V scores? I totally plan on asking this of the School PSych, btw, if she ever calls me back! But wondering your thoughts on this? I am just curuous what they would do with him under these circumstances. I am also curious to see how he does on the OLSAT - although that's yet another test I know nothing about!

Thanks! I will make sure with the school. I am happy to hear he will most likely be given the OLSAT along with everyone else. I don't know what that test is about but it's nice to more info on his strengths and weaknesses, etc. I would actually feel badly tying to make them give him the WISC if he did score high enough on the oLSAT ... I mean, the school psych spent 5 days with him and then observations in class (not five full days but still about an hour each time - what more could I ask of this poor woman!?!). I mean, I just wouldn't feel right insisting that they also give him the WISC. The OLSAT results would give me more info. If they would not want to give him the WISC (even if he got qualifying OLSAT scores) I wouldn't insist but I may just proceed with getting the WISC prvately or simply waiting to see what happens next year.

Thanks for insight and help Dottie- I really really appreicate it!

As is usually the case, Dottie is more of a testing expert than am I, but I am finally getting around to pulling out the info I have on the SB-V subtests. I took a psychological testing and assessment class a few years back at our local uni and knew that I had a book on the SB-V somewhere!

So, if it helps at all, in regard to what you posted above:

Verbal Fluid reasoning and non-verbal fluid reasoning, the subtests where it sounds like he got around 96th percentile scores, look at the following:

Verbal FR: The tasks vary dependent on the age of the child being tested and how s/he performed on the routing tests, but essentially it is looking at how well a person can tell what things "go together." There are either verbal analogies for older or higher performing individuals (like old SAT tests ___ is to ___ as ___ is to ___), or absurd statements that require the child state what doesn't fit, or numerous pictures that the child needs to look through and find three that "go together" and explain why. I'd say that this subtest, in comparing to the WISC, hits on a lot of the points in the VCI but is most similar to a combo of the similarities and picture concepts VCI subtests on the WISC.

Non-verbal FR: This test looks very similar to the WISC's matrix reasoning and picture completion portions of the PRI from what I can gather. It appears that the child needs to identify the correct missing piece of a matrix.

It sounds like abstract reasoning would be a real strength area for him from what you have in terms of this test.

The areas where his scores were more average, WM and VS look like:

Verbal WM involves listening to sentences as they are read aloud and them repeating them verbatim. If someone does quite well on that or is older, s/he would then get a verbal WM test that involves listening to a statement, answering questions about it (which doesn't count toward the score), and then remembering specific words from the statement in terms of their placement in the statement (that's the part that is scored toward WM). FWIW, I suspect that kids with ADD would do quite poorly on this based upon what I know of those with ADD in my family (holding info in one's mind and manipulating it simultaneously doesn't work too well!). I'm not saying that your kiddo has ADD, just a random thought that came to mind.

Verbal VS has the child place objects "above," "below," "in front of," etc. a designated object.

Nonverbal WM looks something like those old simple simon games if you remember those. You basically have to tap items in the order that you just saw them tapped. Another test in this segment, depending again on the age and ability of the person being tested, looks like an old shell game where you have to follow the item under the shells with your eyes and know which shell it wound up under.

Nonverbal VS looks quite similar to the WISC's block design subtest. The child needs to assemble pieces into a design that s/he is replicating from a picture.

HTH!