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Not really sure if you've explored these at all--

crippling anxiety?

sensory integration issues?

Both of those would lead to difficulties under "load" which would disappear in more ideal environs.


ETA: Okay-- I just re-read your earlier thread about the saga with the preschool. Wow. Clearly, your DD (with the social precosity that she evinced for the evaluation above) was manipulating the entire situation for her own entertainment at least part of the time, and the teacher's response was a HUGE part of the problem there. I can't say that surprises me much in light of what I know about K-3 teachers as a group. They do NOT handle such children well, on average. It sounds like this one was outgunned and retaliated in the only way she had available-- by labeling your DD in any way that would allow her to eject her permanently.

{sigh} So. Here you are.

I don't think that your DD can return to a "conventional" classroom. She's demonstrated that she either can't tolerate it-- or that she WON'T-- which in terms of maturity and emotional regulation is more or less age appropriate and therefore amounts to the same thing.

The anecdotes that you shared in the earlier thread provide glimpses into the head of a person who is truly TRYING to meet others where they are... but experiencing severe frustration when they suddenly CANNOT understand her (and lacking the emotional regulation to 'fix' it or let it go in a graceful manner).

She isn't going to behave well unless she's engaged academically and has at least a few true peers. Good luck with that unless you live in an area with a fairly large pool of kids, because HG+ kids are not "common" by definition, and even if they were, kids have different interests and compatibility on the basis of personality. Ergo, she probably needs to have 3-6 children in her life who are at a similar LOG in order to function well socially.

That's my take. If that is all true, then it may get better with age, but the only real cure is going to be to get her to practice empathy toward less-bright children, and to TOLERATE them better... which probably comes as a package deal with gaining more meaningful academic and social interactions. I think that her fuse is so short because she keeps getting stuck with extended situations which feel completely stultifying and overwhelmingly, mind-numbingly bad.

For the record, I'm also APPALLED that you were told that high IQ can't cause social problems. That professional ought (truly) to be ashamed. I think we can safely note that such a person is clearly not beyond ideally intelligent themselves, at any rate.

Our OT has noted something similar in DS5. She works with him three times a week for sensory processing issues. Once individually, once in a group of about six and once in a group with around twenty. At this point one on one he is great, in the group of six he is fine and in the large group he is iffy. The group classes are yoga/gymnastics so he is watching, listening and following instructions. In the larger class he sometimes makes the choice to watch instead of actively participating. So he isn't disruptive just making the choice to watch instead of doing the activity.

He was way more trouble a year ago. He was iffy one on one depending on if it was a new person in a new place, he was generally not good in a small group and was sometimes horrible in a large group. Group learning did not seem like an option at all. We had taken him out of PreK because he hated it and was in trouble all the time.

Now he is in a 16 kid preK/K class and is not disruptive, has friends and participates in class appropriately. There are other issues like avoiding certain types of work and suspected dyslexia we are looking into but the inability to learn in a group stuff seems to be behind us.

Whether is has been time or OT, a year has made a huge difference.

I should add that his classroom is probably outrageously academic. Reading is at the level of the kid, timed math test starting soon on addition, subtraction or multiplication depending on the kid, and science isn't cutesy (the geology unit has included among other things an hour long lecture from a visiting PhD, crystal growing and viewing under a microscope, documentary on volcanos, a rock sorting activity very similar to one I did in an undergrad lab, and a plate tectonics map activity)

So add challenging school to list of reasons we have seen improvement.

Does she actually experience group learning? How does that work when a kid is so far from mainstream intellectually combined with extremem working memory?

Can't someone give her a library pass, a computer, a notebook and just stay out of her way?

Given extreme social skills, then maybe the wider range of issues and behaviors are not all that subconscious in the way that anxiety or overexcitabilities would be?

moomin, this is by far the most difficult part of an assessment process - you have a tidbit of information from the evaluator, but not the full picture. I'd try to take it in stride, think of how it applies to your dd, but also not overthink it until the neuropsych has put together his/her report and you have a chance to meet with the neuropsych to discuss.

This is also just something to throw out there - have you ever taken a few minutes to write down and compare/contrast the situations where your dd loses control & has social challenges? List everything you can about the environment at the time - how many people, outside/inside, noise level, lighting, what was going on, what your dd did before she was there etc... plus specifics about her behavior. Look for anything that seems to be a common thread. Note - this may seem silly and you may think you have a good idea of common ties etc in your head without writing it out, but I'm wondering if maybe there's something else really "out there" going on that you haven't quite stumbled onto yet. This is just an example - not related to your dd at all, but an example of the type of thinking-about-the-situations - my dd who presented as extremely sensory and occasionally severely anxious when she was around 4-5 years old (so anxious we couldn't get her to go into crowded rooms or any kind of new situation)... also has food allergies. We knew that, and we had that under control. What we didn't know was that she had mold allergies - severe. But we weren't looking for that. We knew she was a sensory kid, she likes to move A LOT, etc. We eventually discovered the mold allergy when she had a severe reaction to having dirt sprayed across her face on the playground at preschool during mold season - and her allergy dr figured out that she needed to be tested for mold. BUT when we looked back over the journal we were keeping of behaviors etc, trying to figure out why she was having such a tough time in new situations... the places where she had trouble were old buildings, closed in spaces that didn't smell right, things like that. Places that most likely had mold issues.

Our same dd, when she was younger, and having allergic reactions to food, never said something obvious like "My stomach hurts" - instead she screamed - like the world was ending. She too was almost kicked out of a preschool because of her behavior, and the preschool teachers were very concerned about her thinking she had to be either deaf or cognitively challenged because of the way she screamed and wasn't compliant. We thought the problem was the teachers. Eventually we figured out that the bad behaviors and inability to cope were inevitably occurring 20 minutes after lunch... when she was drinking a ton of milk and eating cheese because those were her favorite foods - this was happening before we found out she was allergic to dairy. So she was screaming, acting perhaps even psychotic after lunch... because her stomach hurt. We would get called to come get her, we'd take her home, and she'd be fine - because the adverse reaction was over by then.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting your dd has allergies! Just suggesting that perhaps there's something that's adversely impacting her, that she can't communicate to you or doesn't know how to communicate to you or simply doesn't connect the dots herself enough yet to see the connection... and that it might be clearer if you start tracking the places/times/etc surrounding her behaviors.

Best wishes,

polarbear

It seems obvious from your other comments that everyone is learning in the group but her. For your DD, it's a bit like being trapped in the fast line behind 40mph traffic.

And the solution is, find a group that learns at (or at least near) her speed. That may be placing her in a group of kids that learns as quickly as she does, or it may be placing her in a group at an activity that doesn't come so easily to her, like gymnastics.

In other words, it's not group learning that's the problem... it's the group.

Just worth noting that partially compensated sensory issues can be like that-- where the only time you'd know it was an issue is "under load."

It's like a circuit breaker-- it requires a surge to 'trip' it, or excessive load.

For an introvert, crowding IS that load. My own sensory issues are FAR worse when I'm in socially claustrophobic environs. Otherwise, you truly would never know-- not even if you knew me well.


I really hope that you can get answers from your evaluation-- and that the HG magnet provides a much better educational fit for your DD.

What type of exclusion diet was your daughter given, and for what duration?

Crowded classroom / playground = noisy. Quiet classroom / backyard = quiet. That's a pretty basic connection there. Furthermore I will add that she may have a speech sensory issue, not just straightforward "noise", or only certain kinds of noise. My DH cannot cope with noise that I am able to filter out an keep functioning (even if I don't like it), I have other kinds of noise I find harder to filter and get tired/cranky very fast. But speech is my major auditory trigger. I cannot cope with multiple people speaking at once, especially multiple people I "should" be processing simulataneously, that i can't just ignore. Makes it very hard for me to be in the same room as all I my children and husband at the same time :-). If she's trying to process every conversation in the room/playground she may be overloading....

As for food allergy and intolerance present differently, intolerance is a load issue and there are good chemicals that are present in foods you would never think of as connected (oranges, chocolate and cheese are all strong amines). So I would not rule out food either.

If you could enter the HG magnet with solid evalutation in placeand strategies it could help, given they're open to it and understand the full wiring of more highly gifted children.

My DD is very sensitive to chemicals, which runs in the family and is related to the food dye sensitivity, but one thing about a school environment, possibly for your DD, is they use hand sanitizer and those bleachy wipes (don't want to say a brand name!) so much in the elementary school classrooms. I've actually seen my DD completely change her personality after all the tables were wiped down and they usually have that as a classroom chore also.

Is there a difference in the type of cleaning products you use at home and at school? Were those wipes or the hand sanitizers etc. on the supply list?

My DD's new private school is not the perfect fit - but much better than anything she's had in the past but two environmental issues that help are 1) it's alot smaller and quieter, including the lunchroom, which helps because she has that auditory issue where, when there is too much noise she can't hear (or process? anything 2)they don't use those wipes or hand sanitizers, the kids just wash their hands with soap and water. The school actually smells much less chemically when you go in there (can you tell I don't like that - we are a vinegar/baking soda house!)

YES. From our DESCRIPTIONS of our 2-5yo DD, (passive resistance, limited tolerance of agemates' activities, tendency toward solitary play, and talkativeness with adults).. whoah... can you say ASD? But seriously NOT the case.

Moomin, she doesn't sound ALL that different from my own DD at those ages.

It's just that my DD was always compassionate/empathetic. I know what child development says there, but... she has been compassionate/empathetic since at least 1yo. She only really assertively manipulated/s those she loves. (But OY, how she has done THAT...)


Yes indeedy.



YES.

I used to call my DH at work and sob to him on the phone. Seriously.

I am not that person. I'm sure that some of the people who have met me later have been extremely shocked that I'm NOTHING like the weak-willed, dependent, indecisive shrinking violet that they had assumed. (LOL) But my 2-3yo, angelic, sweet DD had the power to turn me into a raving LUNATIC or a quivering puddle of goo.

I agree with letting go of what kids this age "are" and "are not" capable of. With a PG kid, fuhgeddaboudit-- they write their own developmental rules. I've often found that this SOCIAL precosity is one of the most startling things about DD. She reads people so well-- and pretty much endlessly manipulates them. Now, she's NEVER doing it to create drama or chaos; she tends to do just the opposite... but still. It's really quite a thing to see in action, but it can raise the hair on the back of your neck if you suddenly zoom out in perspective and realize that you're watching a 3yo child with the manipulation skills of a 25yo motivational speaker.


Book recommendation time:
The Manipulative Child: How to Reg...lient, Resourceful, and Independent Kids

The title is horrible, it goes without saying. But the BOOK... that's about parenting strategies that take "manipulation" out of the picture entirely, and help parents to recognize it for what it is and simply step away. While most parenting books are advocating karate moves to "outmaneuver" a manipulative child, this one offer Tai Chi/Aikkido-- just step sideways instead, or gently grasp the child's hand, and let him/her use that momentum to defuse the situation themselves.


This has been one of my very favorite parenting books. (Seriously.) My DD still manipulates my DH and I into arguments as a means of deflecting/avoiding unpleasant conversations involving her. I'm wise to it. DH not-so-much. He flatly didn't BELIEVE me about her for years. Then he caught her 'smirk' a few times when she'd do something. Ohhhhh-- that look in her eye. "Gotcha..."

So, there are people who are charming and unaware of it, it is just highly tuned automatic responses coupled with strong awareness of others. Then there are people who are charming and aware of it and everything they do. What is that line and is an individual with that level of awareness responsible for the potential to manipulate?

You meet a stranger and smile or you meet a stranger and think I should smile and then smile. Is there a difference?

I've struggled with this question and faulted in the other direction. Mostly because I grew up with a manipulative father, and it really is something that is hard to push past suspicion. One day when I was a teenager he was so proud of some long running manipulation he did at work and was telling me about it.. and it was a relief to have that confirmation.

DS7 will do little manipulations and I've found less meltdowns and good progress by speaking directly to it without accusation. Like: "Ooh, yeah, that's not working... would you rather try a conversation or just write off the failure?"

One strategy that we found helpful with a child who was/is highly manipulative of others (going along with MoN's statements about channeling the force for GOOD) is in simply pointing out the ways in which such manipulation might be hurtful, exploitative, or damaging.

With an empathetic child, it's often enough to do that.

We do NOT intervene much in her 'steering' for social reasons; her empathy and judgment mostly do that for us now.


Yes, yes, yes!! My DD isn't competitive or highly assertive, but she has quiet/strong leadership skills. As parents, we often have an advantage that most adults do not-- we know on a gut-level what is up with something, or know when our kids are not being truthful. I always know, even if I don't choose to act on the information. This has, over time, made DD more open/honest with me about this.

At first, I'm not even sure if she was all that self-aware. I used to really wonder.

I'm also astonished by the peeing on the floor. OMG. My DD did this!! She peed on the sofa and then laughed at me and told me to CLEAN IT UP ( the rush of manipulation, clearly, but she needed me busy to allow her time to ferret something out... she was 2.5 and it was just before Christmas). With Dad, it was about public spectacle and guilt-- she triumphantly screeched at him "You MADE ME PEE ON THE FLOOR!!" in a store after refusing to go use the restroom... she got what she wanted (he stated that he'd NEVER take her on another errand). That was so successful, by the way, that she tried it with me about three weeks later... as she drew breath to bellow, I quietly told her that I was disappointed in her for not telling me that she needed to go. Then, while she was still a little off-balance, she got to apologize for making a mess, and explain "what happened" to a store employee. After all, what if someone SLIPPED on that wet spot and were hurt? I also damped down my own embarrassment (significant, as you might imagine), and calmly explained that I wasn't going to be the one apologizing for something I didn't do. It wasn't my apology to make. I also calmly paid for our purchases as usual while she stood there in wet clothing. By forcing her to face the consequences in human terms, I nipped it in the bud, I think. She was three; the poor man at the store was obviously horrified that I was so cruel to my sweet little girl... but then again, he didn't know her the way I did. I knew it was calculated. Her attitude confirmed it.

Just funny that someone else had this same experience with urination as a locus of control/manipulation. Wow.



I think this is a great observation. I agree. To work at guiding this particular gift (because it CAN be a gift) requires removing such a child from crisis mode so that they can control the behavior. Obviously, they still do things that will require some correction, but "reactionary" is not the way to handle them. This is something that my DH is still learning, by the way. Preemptive, mindful prevention and open conversation saves SO much heartache.

I just wanted to say, this is such a great board, and thanks to everyone for sharing their insights. DD was bullied last year by such a girl (who at that point was in third grade), and although I never talked to her parents about it because I didn't feel it was my place, I found it very disturbing. (Actually, I kept thinking about Cathy in East of Eden...but anyway). I don't think her parents understood what she was doing, and I know the teachers didn't, which led to a horrible year for DD (who she enjoyed manipulating) and us getting disinvited from the school. So it's really wonderful to see that some people see through this behavior and try to change it. I think this poor girl--who was not getting any help to change her behavior from either school or her parents, as far as I could tell--is very likely to become a manipulative grownup, with bad results all around.