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    Hello wise ones! Desperately need some advice here...Here it goes! DS12 is receiving all A's in classes ( A's in all of his subject accelerated classes as well ... science, English, and social studies ) except pre-algebra where I've just been informed by teacher that he is now at a "D" ( This is not a subject accelerated class )

    I am at a loss. A few years ago gifted psychologist said he was "well within the range to handle reading-based and mathematical materials three to four grade levels above his current grade successfully, but that he needed individual tutoring to catch up to where he should be" She even recommended he try out for a talented youth mathematics program and said his visual-spatial was extremely high.

    In 5th grade, DS took EXPLORE and scored a 14...Not amazing but scored in range B, where they recommend early course entry such as Algebra I in 7th grade.

    Before school subject accelerated him, school psychologist administered the WIATT-III. In math solving DS had a stanine of 8...Grade equiv. 11.4, age equiv, 17:0-19:11. Math fluency was low.

    The kid reads all of the "Life of Fred" books and a calculus textbook for "fun"... Loves Vi Hart but says he hates math. I admit that I have no idea if he can even do any of those calculus problems. It's on my checklist. Very busy household.

    Here's the confusion...I notice his math achievement scores going down, down, down. He goes to a public school where his pre-algebra teacher is also the football coach and has already sent DS a few times to the "responsibility room" for drawing. His previous teacher didn't recommend him for pre-algebra, but I pushed for it because of what his potential was showing.

    Before last test, he studied hard! He says he wants to do well. He knew all of the concepts forward and backward. We were convinced he would receive an "A" ...

    This morning... E-mail from teacher saying this... " 14 out of 37 on the last test and now has a "D" in my class. His attention and behavior is still inhibiting him from being successful. I need to remind him daily to stop goofing around and have recently kicked him out of class last week. I have not seen improvement in behavior and it is obviously prohibiting him from getting the material and concepts he needs to be successful in my class. I am willing to help him, but he really needs to help himself by paying attention. If you have any suggestions, I am all ears."

    DS has been sitting front and center in the class. I will ask again if he still is. He gets all of his assignments done. I know that sometimes he forgets to label or show his work, which brings down scores.

    I'm feeling overwhelmed with this. All of his other classes are going great. Please, I would appreciate any input before I reply back to teacher. Thank you in advance!!! smile




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    One thought I have is to wonder what he is drawing. As an extreme visual-spatially oriented person, I'm an incessant doodler. I really need to doodle to focus and pay attention to what's being said. I also used visual diagrams and my own practice work to master math in classes.

    People draw their own conclusions of what "paying attention" is; I wonder that this teacher isn't a complete mismatch to your son. If someone thinks that my looking at them is paying better attention, they are wrong. People have many non-verbal ticks and such that can visually distract from verbal content. Presuming this is the first time your son has had math issues, I would again see it as a style conflict with the teacher.


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    Your DS' behavior in the classroom is a problem for the teacher, and he has drawn a straight line between the behavior and the results. It appears to me that you think that there's no relationship, because this should be easy... too easy, in fact, which would explain why he's behaving so badly in the first place. The conflict is, the test results line up with the teacher's theory, not yours.

    If the teacher is incorrect, something else is going on with the results. To find out either way, I recommend you ask for copies of his tests so far this year... especially the 14/37 one.

    You already hinted at one possible explanation... is the teacher marking each test question completely wrong if your DS didn't show a step? Was the answer still correct?

    It's also possible your DS is frequently making a common mistake, and the teacher isn't spending the time to figure out what it is, and address it.

    In any case, you need the data to make an informed analysis.

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    Originally Posted by Zen Scanner
    Presuming this is the first time your son has had math issues, I would again see it as a style conflict with the teacher.

    Alternatively, presuming that it ISN'T the first time (and I suspect that it's just a worsening of an earlier phenomena, given that the school was relatively unwilling to do an accelerated placement, yes?), I'd explore whether or not this is a matter of:

    a) uncovering a missing set of study/learning skills which have only been revealed now that your DS is finally seeing novel and challenging material, or

    b) a previously masked learning disability of some sort.

    The first thing that I would do as a parent-- and I've been (kind of) in your shoes when my DD took geometry-- is figure out what kind of instruction is taking place in class.

    Offer some direct instruction AT HOME-- using the class textbook. Does your DS have homework problems? Are they difficult enough that he needs to write out his work? Is this material that he's seen before? What KINDS of errors is he making? Are they computational? Or conceptual?

    The only way that you'll learn the answers is by observing his work and what he's doing.

    I had to do this with my DD in geometry-- I literally "taught" her the material (rather than relying upon the school's notion of "student discovery" as a primary learning methodology, which I just... well, words fail). I used a white board, sat her in a chair, coached her on HOW to take notes on what I was showing her, the whole nine yards.

    That was the only way that I could learn what the nature of her problems were. She was more than capable... she just wasn't getting the instruction in the manner that she needed (didactic, Socratic) in order to truly make sense of it at all.


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    Is it possible that he's bored (the math is still too easy) and he can't focus? My son exhibited the same doodling behaviour when required to do math that bored him. The solution was a) make it more difficult, or b) me stand over him and police his home work.

    Another thought is that maybe he's sick of it?

    Or... it could be similar to what happened to me with Algebra... I LOVED Algebra and got (literally) perfect marks, initially. Because I'd never been enriched as a kid I had no study skills, however, and when the level increased to the point where my marks were no longer perfect, a) I didn't have strategies to study and "work hard" ...and b) my inner (INTENSE) perfectionist said "(bleep) this. I don't care anymore." My grades got worse and worse until finally I squeaked by in grade 12 with a finally letter grade of "p" (pass - which I think is about 55%).

    I still remember it, actually... the point where I shut off. The 55% at the end was comprised of the stuff that I had learned in the "perfect" zone, and anything beyond that I just shut off and never bothered learning. It was like a " whatever... I'm done with this now" switch in my brain.

    Ouch.

    Last edited by CCN; 12/18/12 08:33 AM.
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    Yup-- CCN's second thought is exactly what my perfectionist did with math.

    The problems got increasingly worse each year until we finally intervened and determined that she was simply needing actual, you know... instruction. From a live human being. For a few minutes a week, at least.

    The other thing I'm wondering is tied to the thought that maybe it's something relatively simple... but if the teacher has booted him from class repeatedly-- he may have MISSED instruction on it.

    I know, I know-- shouldn't that have occurred to the teacher, as well? Probably. But I wouldn't assume that.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    It seems like a teacher's problem to me. Could you find out if he has any trouble with his math teacher?

    My DS10 took middle school pre-algebra/algebra I class in last 2 years. He is still bored in there, and did a lot of doodlings, but he has maintained all A's. four things helped his transition to algebra: (1) a very funny series called "Life of Fred" featured a 5-yr-old genius boy; (2) participation in middle school math club; (3) "art of problem solving (AoPS)", an online community for all math kids, especially those who want to take the competitional math; (4) watch "vihart" video on youtube, very inspirational and entertaining.

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    Originally Posted by erich
    Three things helped his transition to algebra: (1) a very funny series called "Life of Fred" featured a 5-yr-old genius boy; (2) participation in middle school math club; (3) "art of problem solving (AoPS)", an online community for all math kids, especially those who want to take the competitional math.

    This sounds awesome smile smile It sounds exactly like the kinds of things that would keep a kid engaged and motivated.

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    Thank you so much everyone! Love this forum!!! smile Just picked DS up from school... sick frown Trying to get to the bottom of this.

    Says he is no longer sitting front and center...admits he would do better if he was moved back to the front.

    I agree that there is probably a teacher/student conflict and has been from day 1. I feel all respect is lost from both ends. Teacher appears to be "you follow my rules or else" type of a guy...DS is extremely creative, full of humor...well, you get the idea! I asked why he was "thrown out" the other day and DS said because he wanted to double check his problems and the teacher told him no, sit down. DS said "just a few more seconds" and sigh, teacher booted him out.

    I don't feel that the material is too easy....just painfully boring and repetitive.

    I still don't understand this last test score. I e-mailed teacher for results, so I can see if it was just non-labeling or what else... He KNEW all of the material!!! I even had him stay home from a sports practice knowing he had to study for this test. I took the textbook and reviewed EVERYTHING with him. I hovered over him, wrote out problems...He did extra textbook problems, had him go on Khan Academy, AND IXL to triple-ensure he got the concept and it really, truly appeared that he did. What could possibly be going on here???

    DS has tears in his eyes...said he had enough time, double-checked, thought he had showed work and labeled...said there was a sub that day. He is completely dumbfounded.

    erich ~ Yes, he loves the Fred books and has read the whole series. Started with the math club but stopped. He doesn't particularly enjoy math problems.


    I'm worried that a kid that started out with such math potential, has just withered away from it. How do you stop it??

    Thanks again everyone. This really stinks...

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    OH boy. Sounds like whatever the underlying problem might be, it's dwarfed by the interpersonal conflict between your DS and the teacher (who sounds potentially rigid and authoritarian, which is a deadly combo for my DD, too).

    Good luck. It sounds like a conference is probably in order to get to the bottom of it.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    this is not the first test, right? what were the issues on those previous tests?

    I would say "I can't believe a teacher would send such a non-detailed email and expect any coherent response", but I've seen similar.

    Suggestions? How can you make any suggestions without finding out what happened on the test and specifically what he means by 'goofing off'.
    Bizarre.

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    My DS had three middle school math teachers. All retired or will be retired after DS had them. All were very nice, but extremely strict. We had an incident that for a month or so, DS had to carpool for 3-hour round-trip for swimming 4 days a week. So we requested delayed submission for homework. Math teacher rejected rightaway. I never asked for anything again since. I can understand why they are so authoritarian to kids....according to DS, math class is totally chaotic once the teacher let loose a little bit.

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    One thing to keep in mind is if he is really ready for the accelerated math class. In our local gifted program, about half the kids go on to take accelerated math in 7th grade and half take the regular math curriculum.
    The teachers told us that when parents place their kids in the accelerated math course over their objections, the child inevitably doesn't do well since he/she doesn't have the math skills to succeed. They said it sets up years of poor performance in math and loss of confidence in the subject. Just a thought.
    In our gifted program, acclerated math leads to 7th grade algebra versus the regular course is 8th grade algebra.

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    Well I know you said your child knew the material, so that is that. He knows it. The issue is whether the environment is right for him to show it and if the teacher is willing to see it.

    Although it would be pretty impolite to imply the teacher has any issues with math concepts, do prepare yourself for that possibility. I have tutored a neighbor boy (9th grade) briefly and it was pretty clear the teacher was very bad at explaining things and frankly didn't seem to have a grasp of 'equal' and had really confused this kid (and the majority of the class). It took me about 40 minutes to un-confuse him and he did just fine on his next test and was determined to work out of the book and ignore the teacher as much as possible.
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    Math is not English. You can not proofread it even the solution is wrong. Kids might think that they knew the concept, but in fact, they didn't. They would still get confused under different circumstances. So I think problem solving skill should be the focus for tutoring at home. Also encourage him to solve the problems using multiple techniques. It is like the proofreading in writing. Once he truly master the concept, he may try some fun activities, for example, Many kids on AoPS like to make up problems to challenge each other.

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    Originally Posted by master of none
    This works for regular kids who improve with practice, but this is a kid with high scores who is thought to be able to do math several years ahead. So, repeating a skill until truly mastered is like writing your alphabet letters in 4th grade until they are perfect. Some kids will love it and comply and others will reach a "good enough" point from which they will deteriorate.

    Kids who are more than regular gifted do not need as much practice. Over practice can get in the way of true learning. At least that's my experience with my kid.

    Truly master a math concept is no easy job. For example, one seemingly simple question on median/average concept puzzled many top middle schoolers in recent AMC contest. Problem solving practice is not repeating, it is true learning for math. Actually it is the main reason that AoPS attracts so many gifted kids. For my experience, I never prepare any "repeating" worksheets, school homework is more than enough, instead, I'd follow the progress of hard problems DS came up with, encourage him discuss with his friends and teacher, to see how he could finally solve it.

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    Erich has good points about problem solving being very different from rote repetition, but you really need information about what's actually going on in these classes/tests. One good and easy thing to try might be to give your DS the "Do you need this?" sheet from AOPS prealgebra, here:

    http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/posttest.pdf

    These are not rocket science - there are some word problems, but most are pretty straightforward - but they're varied enough that if your DS can do them all confidently and correctly, then I think you can stop worrying about whether it's really a maths problem, and focus on the teacher problem. OTOH, if he has trouble, you may need to help with the maths.


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    Great points, everyone!!! Thank you! So this is what I have so far...

    Teacher tells me he did not follow directions given on the test, didn't label, simplify, and left FOUR problems blank. When I told this to my son he looked at me with tears in his eyes and asked how that could have happened. In all of his other classes, he does't have problems with reading test directions. A few times in the past, he has forgotten to label or simplify but he has never left problems undone and like I said before, he KNEW the material.

    Teacher continues to go on and on about son's terrible behavior problems, drawing on assignments, etc... I find this interesting since DS is receiving all A's in six different classes ( 3 of which are subject accelerated ) and I have not received any e-mails or phone calls complaining about son's behavior or anything else.

    Son admits all of his best buddies are in his class, it's the 6th hour...Says everyone hates the teacher, he's a "terrible" teacher, and he's not the only one gets in trouble...

    I requested to the teacher to please move DS back to the front row. DS even wants it. I get this back from the teacher..."No seat is far enough away from people for him to control himself"

    Son, husband, and I are meeting with teacher tomorrow morning. In an e-mail teacher says this..."This will be the last time I will allow him to retest when I have to remove him from class for behavior. If he misses anymore material/class time because of behavior, I will not offer another retake for him"

    Great. Now what???

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    Sounds toxic. Ask to record the meeting with the teacher. Something in how he phrases his responses raises my hackles. What is his hair going to fall out if your son doodles on the edge of his assignments?

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    Sounds like it's time for a visit to the counselor's office for a schedule change. The fact that your DS is doing so well in all his other classes ought to make it easy to request a switch.

    I wouldn't settle for the teacher's verbal or email assessment of what went wrong on the test. I'd still want that test in my hands, to figure out exactly what's going on.

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    There are two things I would do if I were in your place - first, I'd want to have a copy of each test and as many of your ds' homework assignments (graded) as possible. While it's possible this is entirely a bad teacher fit, you also have mentioned your ds wasn't accelerated in math this year and you had to request it. While he had high test scores at some point in time and a comment that he should be capable of working ahead of grade level, that was several years ago (if I understand correctly), and that was also before he was attempting a higher level of math. I would want to be sure that I understood whether or not there are challenges for my ds related to the actual work.

    Second thing is request a classroom change. I suspect there is no way you'll be able to turn around the relationship with this current teacher.

    One other note - back to your OP where you noted your ds reads calculus for fun at home - just fwiw - I have a 2E dd who is challenged in reading (different challenge for sure), but fwiw, she reads much higher level books at home than she does at school and she enjoys them. BUT she's not taking in the content of those books the way she needs to to be successful in school. I only mention this because I think it's quite possible your ds might be able to read and enjoy higher level math at home, but still not be at that ability level for problem-solving.

    It's tough sometimes to see the full picture when a teacher-student relationship is such a poor fit - we have totally btdt with one of my ds' teachers (although at a much younger age). My only advice in hindsight is to try to deal with the teacher as one issue but also don't ignore that there might be something real going on with math (lack of interest, lack of motivation, not as highly able as you had hoped, some type of challenge, whatever).

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Yes to MoN, PolarBear, and Kcab's advice.

    Oy, have we been there with poor teacher fit-- my daughter is virtually unrecognizable as a student with a teacher that either takes the "stoic" approach with her, or actively "doesn't believe" in her ability.

    Something about the "no seat is far enough" comment raised MY hackles, as well. I'd ask about that (as calmly as you can)-- perhaps this is a teacher who is looking for behavioral problems that can be attributed to "immaturity" or "inappropriate relative to older classmates."

    We've seen that before, too. Not often, mind. But I have seen it, and there is NO way to win with a teacher like that, because they have a different (higher?) set of standards for YOUR child in particular, and even the most savvy child will have difficulty navigating that kind of social mine-field with an adult, but if YOU intervene, that's just more evidence that the child in the center of things lacks the "maturity" to do so...

    Yes to a meeting.

    Yes to getting hold of the graded work that your child has submitted.

    Yes to seeing RUBRICS for that graded material (that way you know what the standard is)

    Yes to advocating for a more "positive" student-teacher fit-- for both student AND teacher. (I'd probably spin that one by noting that it can't be any good for the teacher/class to have all of this stuff interfering with the learning environment, either...) BUT-- make sure that you know what the other placement options are, and that this one is inferior to them. No frying pan into the fire, in other words. There are times when even a pretty toxic situation is just the best you can do (see my DD's American Government teacher for more details here... yuck).

    I'd pursue the notion that your son is missing instructional time because of "punishment" (?) in this class... because that also raises some red flags for me in terms of missing skills/understanding.

    Bear in mind that there are probably areas where your son needs some additional help. It doesn't sound as though this teacher is the right person for that particular job, though.

    Good luck!



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    Originally Posted by ColinsMum
    Erich has good points about problem solving being very different from rote repetition, but you really need information about what's actually going on in these classes/tests. One good and easy thing to try might be to give your DS the "Do you need this?" sheet from AOPS prealgebra, here:

    http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/posttest.pdf

    These are not rocket science - there are some word problems, but most are pretty straightforward - but they're varied enough that if your DS can do them all confidently and correctly, then I think you can stop worrying about whether it's really a maths problem, and focus on the teacher problem. OTOH, if he has trouble, you may need to help with the maths.

    GREAT idea, this.


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    Originally Posted by Cecilia
    I requested to the teacher to please move DS back to the front row. DS even wants it. I get this back from the teacher..."No seat is far enough away from people for him to control himself"

    Son, husband, and I are meeting with teacher tomorrow morning. In an e-mail teacher says this..."This will be the last time I will allow him to retest when I have to remove him from class for behavior. If he misses anymore material/class time because of behavior, I will not offer another retake for him"

    A couple of thoughts about the second statement here - it is illegal in my state to academically punish a student for behavior problems. In other words, if your son gets sent from class because of behavior, the teacher is still required by law to ensure that he has the material he needs and if retakes are his policy for other students who do poorly, they still have to be an option for your son. (This particular law is pretty frustrating for the teachers - I know it drives me crazy sometimes, but it is the law so has to be done.)

    Also, I would ask the parents of some of your son's friends who are also in the class if they are having any problems with this teacher as well. If so, then you should all go to the school administration and ask about the situation. A number of times the admin are unaware of what is going on in the classroom unless parents tell them. Especially if the teacher is a coach of a winning team. wink

    Good luck! We just pulled our DD from a toxic situation in one of her classes after fighting with the teacher for some changes and not seeing anything improve.

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    We are going through the exact same thing! Our DS13 has taken several aptitude and intelligence tests. His Math reasoning scores on various aptitude tests are in the 99% but Math computation scores are lower. We brought him to a counselor who specializes in gifted children and right away she zeroed in on the fact that he is a visual-spatial learner. After reading for two days all the literature I could get my hands on about visual-spatial learners, now I understand why DS is failing Math. Gifted visual-spatial learners understand the concept but given the way their brain works and learns, it is next to impossible for them to show their work.

    The problem with visual-spatial learners is that the regular classroom setting and instruction focuses on auditory-sequential learners; these learners are at the opposite end of the spectrum as visual-spatial. Simply, the regular classroom setting neglects visual-spatial learners and they fail to succeed.

    Maybe reading up on visual-spatial to see if your son matches that learning style would shed some light on his Math issue...



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    Hi everyone! Thank you again for all of the responses smile Sorry I haven't updated. I was hoping I would eventually have good news to report. Sadly, I feel that this teacher is a bully. For some reason, he has chosen to make my son an example.

    I tried to see if there was another class to switch into. My son was all for it. In the end, the switch would have conflicted too much with his other class. We've been trying our best to get along with this teacher but it doesn't seem to be improving at all.

    It's almost like he's just looking for the tiniest excuse to send him out of the room. Since he's missing so much class time, he's missing concepts. His math confidence is now down the tubes and he's developed math anxiety, which he never had before frown He knows the material at home but as soon as he goes to this teacher's math class to take the test, he completely forgets everything. It's horrible.

    The teacher allows other students to retake the tests except for mine. He uses his "bad behavior" as an excuse to not allow him to retake. So interesting that my son has no other teacher conflicts or "behavior problems" in other classes- all A's in his other classes, D in math....

    Anyways, counselor called and is open to any ideas. She is wonderful and this is great news!!! What should I suggest??? Any wonderful pre-algebra online program that son can do in the media center while his math class is going on??? He has tried EPGY but not visual enough. He is very visual-spatial. I need something that will actually teach, not just problems to do. Any other suggestions???

    Thank you again!!! So gald there's only a few more months left of school! smile

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    Thanks much for the suggestion, master of none!

    At the last second, I also thought of Khan Academy. Love his videos!
    Anyone use this as their curriculum? We just have to get through the last few months. The sooner I can get my son out of that class environment, the better! smile

    Thoughts???


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    If he is ahead could he just skip it all together this year, do some fill-in-the-gaps tutoring then start again next year with a new teacher?

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    Insist on seeing that test. Something is clearly not adding up. It may be time to escalate and bring this up with the principal.

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