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    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Cecilia Offline OP
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    Hello wise ones! Desperately need some advice here...Here it goes! DS12 is receiving all A's in classes ( A's in all of his subject accelerated classes as well ... science, English, and social studies ) except pre-algebra where I've just been informed by teacher that he is now at a "D" ( This is not a subject accelerated class )

    I am at a loss. A few years ago gifted psychologist said he was "well within the range to handle reading-based and mathematical materials three to four grade levels above his current grade successfully, but that he needed individual tutoring to catch up to where he should be" She even recommended he try out for a talented youth mathematics program and said his visual-spatial was extremely high.

    In 5th grade, DS took EXPLORE and scored a 14...Not amazing but scored in range B, where they recommend early course entry such as Algebra I in 7th grade.

    Before school subject accelerated him, school psychologist administered the WIATT-III. In math solving DS had a stanine of 8...Grade equiv. 11.4, age equiv, 17:0-19:11. Math fluency was low.

    The kid reads all of the "Life of Fred" books and a calculus textbook for "fun"... Loves Vi Hart but says he hates math. I admit that I have no idea if he can even do any of those calculus problems. It's on my checklist. Very busy household.

    Here's the confusion...I notice his math achievement scores going down, down, down. He goes to a public school where his pre-algebra teacher is also the football coach and has already sent DS a few times to the "responsibility room" for drawing. His previous teacher didn't recommend him for pre-algebra, but I pushed for it because of what his potential was showing.

    Before last test, he studied hard! He says he wants to do well. He knew all of the concepts forward and backward. We were convinced he would receive an "A" ...

    This morning... E-mail from teacher saying this... " 14 out of 37 on the last test and now has a "D" in my class. His attention and behavior is still inhibiting him from being successful. I need to remind him daily to stop goofing around and have recently kicked him out of class last week. I have not seen improvement in behavior and it is obviously prohibiting him from getting the material and concepts he needs to be successful in my class. I am willing to help him, but he really needs to help himself by paying attention. If you have any suggestions, I am all ears."

    DS has been sitting front and center in the class. I will ask again if he still is. He gets all of his assignments done. I know that sometimes he forgets to label or show his work, which brings down scores.

    I'm feeling overwhelmed with this. All of his other classes are going great. Please, I would appreciate any input before I reply back to teacher. Thank you in advance!!! smile




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    One thought I have is to wonder what he is drawing. As an extreme visual-spatially oriented person, I'm an incessant doodler. I really need to doodle to focus and pay attention to what's being said. I also used visual diagrams and my own practice work to master math in classes.

    People draw their own conclusions of what "paying attention" is; I wonder that this teacher isn't a complete mismatch to your son. If someone thinks that my looking at them is paying better attention, they are wrong. People have many non-verbal ticks and such that can visually distract from verbal content. Presuming this is the first time your son has had math issues, I would again see it as a style conflict with the teacher.


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    Your DS' behavior in the classroom is a problem for the teacher, and he has drawn a straight line between the behavior and the results. It appears to me that you think that there's no relationship, because this should be easy... too easy, in fact, which would explain why he's behaving so badly in the first place. The conflict is, the test results line up with the teacher's theory, not yours.

    If the teacher is incorrect, something else is going on with the results. To find out either way, I recommend you ask for copies of his tests so far this year... especially the 14/37 one.

    You already hinted at one possible explanation... is the teacher marking each test question completely wrong if your DS didn't show a step? Was the answer still correct?

    It's also possible your DS is frequently making a common mistake, and the teacher isn't spending the time to figure out what it is, and address it.

    In any case, you need the data to make an informed analysis.

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    Originally Posted by Zen Scanner
    Presuming this is the first time your son has had math issues, I would again see it as a style conflict with the teacher.

    Alternatively, presuming that it ISN'T the first time (and I suspect that it's just a worsening of an earlier phenomena, given that the school was relatively unwilling to do an accelerated placement, yes?), I'd explore whether or not this is a matter of:

    a) uncovering a missing set of study/learning skills which have only been revealed now that your DS is finally seeing novel and challenging material, or

    b) a previously masked learning disability of some sort.

    The first thing that I would do as a parent-- and I've been (kind of) in your shoes when my DD took geometry-- is figure out what kind of instruction is taking place in class.

    Offer some direct instruction AT HOME-- using the class textbook. Does your DS have homework problems? Are they difficult enough that he needs to write out his work? Is this material that he's seen before? What KINDS of errors is he making? Are they computational? Or conceptual?

    The only way that you'll learn the answers is by observing his work and what he's doing.

    I had to do this with my DD in geometry-- I literally "taught" her the material (rather than relying upon the school's notion of "student discovery" as a primary learning methodology, which I just... well, words fail). I used a white board, sat her in a chair, coached her on HOW to take notes on what I was showing her, the whole nine yards.

    That was the only way that I could learn what the nature of her problems were. She was more than capable... she just wasn't getting the instruction in the manner that she needed (didactic, Socratic) in order to truly make sense of it at all.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Is it possible that he's bored (the math is still too easy) and he can't focus? My son exhibited the same doodling behaviour when required to do math that bored him. The solution was a) make it more difficult, or b) me stand over him and police his home work.

    Another thought is that maybe he's sick of it?

    Or... it could be similar to what happened to me with Algebra... I LOVED Algebra and got (literally) perfect marks, initially. Because I'd never been enriched as a kid I had no study skills, however, and when the level increased to the point where my marks were no longer perfect, a) I didn't have strategies to study and "work hard" ...and b) my inner (INTENSE) perfectionist said "(bleep) this. I don't care anymore." My grades got worse and worse until finally I squeaked by in grade 12 with a finally letter grade of "p" (pass - which I think is about 55%).

    I still remember it, actually... the point where I shut off. The 55% at the end was comprised of the stuff that I had learned in the "perfect" zone, and anything beyond that I just shut off and never bothered learning. It was like a " whatever... I'm done with this now" switch in my brain.

    Ouch.

    Last edited by CCN; 12/18/12 08:33 AM.
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    Yup-- CCN's second thought is exactly what my perfectionist did with math.

    The problems got increasingly worse each year until we finally intervened and determined that she was simply needing actual, you know... instruction. From a live human being. For a few minutes a week, at least.

    The other thing I'm wondering is tied to the thought that maybe it's something relatively simple... but if the teacher has booted him from class repeatedly-- he may have MISSED instruction on it.

    I know, I know-- shouldn't that have occurred to the teacher, as well? Probably. But I wouldn't assume that.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    It seems like a teacher's problem to me. Could you find out if he has any trouble with his math teacher?

    My DS10 took middle school pre-algebra/algebra I class in last 2 years. He is still bored in there, and did a lot of doodlings, but he has maintained all A's. four things helped his transition to algebra: (1) a very funny series called "Life of Fred" featured a 5-yr-old genius boy; (2) participation in middle school math club; (3) "art of problem solving (AoPS)", an online community for all math kids, especially those who want to take the competitional math; (4) watch "vihart" video on youtube, very inspirational and entertaining.

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    Originally Posted by erich
    Three things helped his transition to algebra: (1) a very funny series called "Life of Fred" featured a 5-yr-old genius boy; (2) participation in middle school math club; (3) "art of problem solving (AoPS)", an online community for all math kids, especially those who want to take the competitional math.

    This sounds awesome smile smile It sounds exactly like the kinds of things that would keep a kid engaged and motivated.

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    Cecilia Offline OP
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    Thank you so much everyone! Love this forum!!! smile Just picked DS up from school... sick frown Trying to get to the bottom of this.

    Says he is no longer sitting front and center...admits he would do better if he was moved back to the front.

    I agree that there is probably a teacher/student conflict and has been from day 1. I feel all respect is lost from both ends. Teacher appears to be "you follow my rules or else" type of a guy...DS is extremely creative, full of humor...well, you get the idea! I asked why he was "thrown out" the other day and DS said because he wanted to double check his problems and the teacher told him no, sit down. DS said "just a few more seconds" and sigh, teacher booted him out.

    I don't feel that the material is too easy....just painfully boring and repetitive.

    I still don't understand this last test score. I e-mailed teacher for results, so I can see if it was just non-labeling or what else... He KNEW all of the material!!! I even had him stay home from a sports practice knowing he had to study for this test. I took the textbook and reviewed EVERYTHING with him. I hovered over him, wrote out problems...He did extra textbook problems, had him go on Khan Academy, AND IXL to triple-ensure he got the concept and it really, truly appeared that he did. What could possibly be going on here???

    DS has tears in his eyes...said he had enough time, double-checked, thought he had showed work and labeled...said there was a sub that day. He is completely dumbfounded.

    erich ~ Yes, he loves the Fred books and has read the whole series. Started with the math club but stopped. He doesn't particularly enjoy math problems.


    I'm worried that a kid that started out with such math potential, has just withered away from it. How do you stop it??

    Thanks again everyone. This really stinks...

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    OH boy. Sounds like whatever the underlying problem might be, it's dwarfed by the interpersonal conflict between your DS and the teacher (who sounds potentially rigid and authoritarian, which is a deadly combo for my DD, too).

    Good luck. It sounds like a conference is probably in order to get to the bottom of it.


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