Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy This is not good for my rage

Argh, I've been trying to post in my own threads all week but I keep just getting a blank screen so I have to start a new one.

The first trimester is done, the school has had DD5's WJ-III scores for 5 weeks, and they finally got around to doing the 2 simple assessments they told us 8 weeks ago that they could give her. One just ended up being the 1st grade level of AIMSweb and I have no idea why they wasted their time with that one. The other was the STAR reading test for AR and her grade equivalent on that is 3.5.

So tell me why, dear professional educators, now that you have all this lovely data... WHY is my DD still being subjected to early K-level work? I was helping with centers this week and during that time the teacher was calling the students up to read with her individually. They just have these little 4-page pamphlets to practice sight words (I like cars. I like books.) I thought, surely now that their own testing shows her reading at a mid-3rd-grade level, she won't make DD read these to her... but that's what she did. Or rather, as she brought each little booklet out DD recited each one at about the speed of the Micro Machines Man with her eyes shut. (thepumpkinisbigthepumpkinisfatthepumpkinisorange) I could hear the teacher saying more than once something to the effect of "You just have all these memorized- you need to read the words, not just say what you remember." Then she gave DD the whole stack of booklets to bring home and said, "You need to practice reading these with your parents instead of just memorizing them." Bwa? There's only one word different on each page- how could she NOT have them memorized? And I'll note here- DD's class is small to begin with but on this particular day there were only 9 kids in the room so it's not like she was too rushed to grab an actual book off the shelf for her to read aloud.

They have a separate math time (and DD goes to a different teacher for that) but sometimes they do math work at one of the centers. The one time I saw a math center, it was tracing on these giant wipe-off numbers. Yeah, this is a kid with a flippin' 4-sigma applied problems score- she's not really benefiting from number-tracing. DD seemed to agree, and decided it was more fun to throw the letters at her friends while laughing maniacally. She stopped after being scolded (twice) and still ended up with a green card for the day so that makes me wonder if this isn't uncommon behavior for her. (And she really doesn't need the tracing practice- her handwriting is good enough that she successfully forged my signature more than once last week but that's another issue.)


So since nothing has changed, I guess the ball is still in my court now?? I figured they would use their assessments to inform the instruction but I guess I need to spell it out for them?? ("Your assessment shows DD is reading at a mid-3rd level so please excuse her from practicing the word "go" and give her some 3rd grade books."??)

The teacher so far has said nothing whatsoever about any of these assessments other than telling me the scores she had. When I emailed the academic director the WJ-III scores, she said, "[The teacher] can't teach the third grade curriculum in the short time she has with her kiddos every day, and I am not comfortable having [DD] go to a classroom with students who are two to three years older than she is."

Um, okaaaay... I didn't suggest either of those things (or anything really, other than assessing her above K level) but thanks for telling me all the ways you CAN'T help her and not offering any solutions. The only other point the AD had to make was that we need to help DD be a kindergartner and develop her socially and emotionally as well as academically.

I don't even really care if DD learns anything in school this year, but I'm VERY interested to see if the school cares. In 1st grade next year there's a 2-hour literacy block and a full hour of math. I just can't see DD managing that if the work is so far below her level. This just makes me tired thinking about it- I need a nap now.

I'm so sorry you're hitting a brick wall. It sounds to me like the school agreed to test your DD to appease you and either had no intention of doing anything with the results or never really thought your DD would score as highly as you were telling them she would. I'm forgetting, though, what you've said in previous posts.

I've seen teachers not be able to think out of the box of their traditional planned curriculum (which does not excuse her ridiculous accusations about memorization, or any other lack of effort at accommodation). But I think it's crazy that the academic director was so dismissive of your DD's needs. First, I hate the old "we need to focus on her social needs to the exclusion of her academic needs" line. Second, she outright dissmissed the hope of having anything different for your DD.

How attached are you to the idea of your DD going to this school? Do you have other options? Within this school, what has the principal said? Is there anyone else (the superintendent?) higher up on the ladder to whom you can go?

Oh, this makes me so sad to answer. :o( It's a new charter school and I worked with them for years to get it going. My family has put many hundreds of hours of volunteer work into this school and alienated ourselves from our neighbors by supporting it being built in our neighborhood.

DD was only 3 when I first got involved and at that point we knew she was gifted but didn't think her needs would end up being so atypical. Also, the vision the board initially had for the school was different than how it's turned out. I hosted a meeting and the board president sat in my living room explaining how the flexible ability grouping would work out with students of all ages working together, grouped based on what they're ready for. I think what happened is, once the administration was hired they convinced the board a school with that setup was a pipe dream. It's just a regular school with regular classes based on birthdate. They still claim to challenge all students at their level, but I guess that's only if "their level" is reasonably close to that of age peers.


Sure, we have other options, I just hate change and it would be hard to wrap my brain around not sticking with this school we thought could see our family through the next decade at least. I know so many people there and there are multiple kids in DD's class that we've known since they were all babies.

We haven't brought the principal into the conversation yet. I'm not sure how to do that. I know there's a policy about taking complaints to teacher, then admin, then board, but I don't know about filing an actual complaint.... That seems to have implications for the teacher's job that I wouldn't want to get into. She's very young and inexperienced and i think the real problem lies with the administration.

Other options include a self-contained GT classroom at another school (but not until 2nd grade and DD would have to test in) or partial homeschooling (although DD's current school does not seem too excited about helping with this.)

Thanks, MoN, I'm trying to stay hopeful.

I did send a chapter book in for DD to read- this was 8 weeks ago after I suggested it at the PT conference. The teacher said sure, send a book in for her to read, but it never got touched other than one time when I volunteered. I was helping by pulling students into the hallway to read with me and I got DD's chapter book for her turn. DD whined and made a fuss and said she wanted to read the little booklets like everyone else. I told her the teacher said she should be reading the book I sent in. DD played a few games with pretending not to know any of the words and eventually settled in to read a few pages very nicely. I was a little weirded out that she seemed to not want anyone to know she could read already. (Our experience in extracurricular classes has been that she has no problem pointing out when she can do something the other kids can't... In fact we had to have several discussions about not bragging.)

I took the book back home with me this week when I was in the classroom again since it hadn't been used in 2 months and in that time DD had gotten another copy from the library and finished it at home. (James and the Giant Peach.)

Yes, this is the approach I used to involve the academic director after conferences. ("Oh, you don't have the next level of assessments? Hmm, do you suppose the academic director would? Oh you think I should ask her? Lovely then!")

Since the AD is an admin and is the one who's supposed to handle GT issues, do you think I'd have to get her OK to involve the principal? I'm pretty frustrated with her responses so far. Also it's been 5 weeks of trying to get her to tell us for sure whether someone at the school can give DD the one subtest she's missing to get 2 more possibly qualifying clusters for DYS. She ignored my 3rd email, which was sent last week letting her know we went ahead to submit the app without that last score but it could still be really helpful to have.

I'm starting to think this is pretty much their philosophy, even though they claim to be so big on ability grouping and challenging all students.


I asked the teacher if DD could be excused from reading the phonics booklets and read a book from home during that time. I got a long response that amounted to this:

1. DD lied to the teacher about having a book in her bag from home. (I assume because she didn't want to be different from the rest of the class by reading something else.)

2. The teacher thinks DD is benefiting from the activities they do during literacy time and having her "read a book alone" would be a waste of time for her.

This is all communication over email, so maybe we'd get further with meeting in person. I don't think that can happen until January though.

MoN, sounds like your daughter did a great job advocating for herself. I've asked my DD a few times (in the context of her complaining about school) if she could tell the teacher she'd like to read something different, or if she could ask the librarian if she can check out a chapter book instead of something from the K shelf her class is restricted to. DD is not interested in making any waves at school, she just wants to come home & complain about it to me I guess. :oP

W'sMama - we were once in the position you're in now - all three of our children were enrolled in a charter school which we (parents) had put our time, heart, soul and effort into to the nth degree because we really believed in the mission. We were convinced it was a place where differentiation could happen (and we were assured it would).. and it didn't happen in a way or at a level that made any difference to our EG ds. We hung on, advocated, tried, wished, volunteered, you name it... but nothing much really changed. Eventually we reluctantly switched schools... to a different type of school altogether... but you know what? It was the BEST thing I've ever done as a parent! Not only was my ds instantly happier, and not only did he finally get the intellectual challenge he needed, I can't tell you how relaxed and relieved I felt when I dropped him off at school everyday. And as a bonus, we'd found a school where teachers (and administrators) value parent input, which is a HUGE bonus when advocating for a gifted student.

I do hope things work out for you at the school you're at - but if you sense that it's more than just one teacher with a not-so-great attitude, I would suggest asking around of other parents, doing some research, and getting out and checking out some of the other school options in your area. You might find something that is a better fit for your child.

I totally understand not wanting to let go - but if you do have to let go, you can let go knowing you did a wonderful amount of great work and helped to provide a good school option in your neighborhood. None of that changes, even though it may not be the best choice of school for your ds.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Wow--really great advice from master of none here. I wish I had read something like it when my DD was in K and we were hitting our heads against a very similar wall. (Yes, she spent all of K reading "The rat has a pan.") I pushed to the point I felt comfortable with and then we bailed on that school --also a charter, btw, and also very lockstep. I have come to think that bigger schools may be better for these kids. They're more likely to have seen a kid like XYZ and have dealt with more outside the box situations.

If the teacher wants your DD to read, and not parrot back "memorized" stuff, then it stands to reason that she needs to give her something to read that she hasn't seen before. How about this lovely book here, hmm?

Thanks so much, all, and thanks to MoN for sharing so much of your own experience. This is why I love this board! So helpful to hear things that have worked and also what you would do differently, as in this great thread: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/141861/1.html

I would LOVE to see the kid who was able to memorize a book without having read it first. Why does this idea persist?

Oh dear! I can't help, but I can share my visceral reaction. I would have been fantasizing about handing the teacher a stack of education texts and parroting her comment.

(Note - my comment has nothing to do with the OP's issue with this teacher)... just fwiw, my HG+ dd memorized words and was able to look like she was reading when really she wasn't reading, she was parroting back words she had memorized and sometimes she would be using pictures that went with the words to key her memory. She's got a great memory, and she watched and listened while books were read to her. So yes, there are kids who can memorize books without technically having read them first.

For her, it really was (and is) an issue - she's 2e and still struggling to read. Our ds also had a friend in K/1 who learned to read by memorizing words, and the teachers back then were very concerned about it - they thought if she didn't learn how to decode using phonics she would struggle with higher level reading. I don't know if that happened or not.

polarbear

Good point, polarbear.

The really funny thing to me is, the "memorization" comments are what prompted me to write to the teacher and ask for DD to be excused from reading these phonics booklets... but in the teacher's response to me, she said these books are "very easy for her when it comes to decoding the words." And she made some comments about how DD can decode words above her grade level, but she needs the "higher level reading strategies" she's getting with these leveled readers.

So I'm not even sure what the teacher's position is here- does she think DD is whole-language learning and just memorizing it all, or does she think DD is just decoding everything but not understanding anything? :oP I think it's pretty clear from her test scores that neither of these things is the case. BUT, I do think DD could definitely benefit from some advanced phonics work. She has little patience for sounding out unfamilar words and doesn't have great strategies for breaking up multi-syllable words she's having trouble with. At conferences I did point out that she could use instruction in that, but looks like I'll have to do it myself.

MoN- the emotional appeal, the child losing love of learning etc, didn't work for my DS6.
they just didn't seem to really care.
or rather they tried to placate me, thinking i'd just hush up.
i didn't.
that's why i pulled him from kinder...
(that's a total of 8 yes EIGHT- kids who have left this teacher's class. actually, 6 of the kids left the school entirely!)

he's still on paper as kindergarten, but doing independent study thru the district,
and doing mid/end 1st grade work. and speeding thru this.

but back to the post creator- you sound very invested in this school, and i hope it does work out! have you requested a possible move to 1st grade?
thru the independent study, i have been given books which include the teachers edition for the treasures program CA uses, and it specifically explains day by day for teacher. breaking it down to minutes of the day to teach a specific item.
*and it also then breaks it further into special needs/approaching grade level/at grade level/ beyond. (it even has ESL!!) so i am wondering if you're childs teacher is following her teacher guide?
it specifically states what an accelerated student should be doing. the readers are higher level etc...the teacher really doesn't have to think too much outside the box LOL because it is all right there in b/w!! ((i assume that most academic programs would incl these different levels in their curriculum as well, treasures can't be only one to do so?))* even DS math teachers edition, has different levels for kids. both also break it down into large group, broken down into smaller group learning etc... it is VERY indepth.

sadly, i realize only after starting independent study, and getting my hands on these teacher editions? my DS teacher flat out refused to even attempt the "beyond" level readers etc etc instead, making him read the "decodable" bks. basic picture books really. he hated it.

just a note also,
DS was learning a new math concept last wk- he said "oh i just can't do this!"
me- why not? let's try again!
DS- "mom! i'm just too stupid now! my brain just can't learn! you know my mrs. chang thinks i'm stupid!" and then he started crying...

well. what do you say to that?
i was only then fully aware how much damage was done, i mean, how deep it went- affecting his self worth/esteem etc...

so i did what all good moms do!
i told him his teacher had simply given him "changitis" and we discussed some of the other kids who had left the class because the kids were bored and unhappy, and parents couldn't get help from the teacher... we discussed how for whatever reason this particular teacher had caused these kids to all develop changitis and they were all better now after having left her class (and yes they are all doing well/happy!)... and i explained how he was no longer there, that she was no longer going to make him feel like he couldn't do what he was very capable of doing ie read etc, also because i believed in him, and i knew what he could do and what he wanted to do, and i was going to support him however i could, and just that he needed to try. the only way to overcome changitis it to try. to continue to learn new things. to be happy learning new things.and i asked him-- you don't want to prove chang right do you? then i asked if he was happy? (i already knew answer to this was yes, because he tells me most days how happy he is that he is learning new things...) so he says yes, he is happy, and that i was right, he felt like his changitis was better. he then asked if he could try the new math concept again. he did and he understood it and was so thrilled. i told him how happy i was that he tried so hard and asked him how he felt when he tried to learn something new, that seemed hard, and he said it made him feel very happy.

point is, my DS6 is still recovering from the last 4mos spent in a classroom that stripped him of himself. what he knew, that he knew. without the support and encouragement of his teacher, someone incharge of my child for 34hrs/wk, she beat him down to a withdrawn child who hated school and didn't care about learning. *he is now back up and running, and would willingly sit and do school all day long! but that is because he is learning new things and even the review is at a more challenging level, and slowly this is empowering him, and his creative side is even finally peeking out again.

one last sidenote- DS is amazing @painting. wish i could share some. yet after i pulled him from class/school, on the last day of the semester, 1wk later i rec'd his "grades" in the mail, and his kinder teacher literally flunked him in art. oh and health. ummm i am in the healthfield. i believe both of those marks on his report card were a direct last ditch retaliation type effort on changs part. not even worth more from me than a laugh. (and i did laugh!) but also validates that she was not the right person to be entrusted to teach or even care for my son. emotional stability and wellbeing are just as important as the academic part of school in kindergarten especially.

long story short and didn't mean to hijack your original post, but
just don't wait too long to make a change in your dtr's schooling situation. damage (could be) is being done on a deeper level than just not having your dtr continue to learn new stuff etc.

take care

w-
just read last reply from you,
do not let teacher get away with throwing memorization at you! if you feel your DD is fully reading and comprehending (key) then you tell her to assess DD!

this was one thing DS teacher said re DS reading (and even math)
- that just because he could memorize a few words did not make him a reader! same with math facts.
he can do math story problems in his head! he does them for fun, answering and then thinking of problem to ask me - a simple ie
i am an even #, i am greater than 10, less than 18, #choices are 2, 5, 0, 1, what # am i? (answer is 12). that was simple.
but he just turned 6.

and yes he is reading with full comprehension and HAD she taken the time to assess him, she would know this. (our new support teacher assessed him- he read out of the 2nd gr book, and then was able to discuss and read/answer in detail questions at end of story)

i don't mean to be doom and gloom?! but i am newly passionate about all of this! fyi, my son is also 2E and sadly, i think his autism played into this in respect that teacher has no clue re high functioning autistic children who don't always present as what many assume autism to be....
but she knew his dx, and almost seemed to just write him off. (that may be my anger talking. she may just suck at teaching.)

W's mama- just wanted to add my ds experience with phonics and sounding out words. (He's 5.5 in kindergarten was reading 2nd grade in August). Yet, he did struggle with sounding, but was good at replacing the word with a synonym. Thus, if I wasn't right there, the sentence and story still flowed. I started sitting with him, stopping him, making him sound out the word &/ or showing him how to break apart the word. By November, he is definitely improved. He is more like a strong 3-4 grade level reader. (I am still trying to get his teacher to adminster another STAR test to bump up the AR level of books he can read at school- frustrating!)Also, he speed and endurance improved.
I'm sure your dd is close to figuring it all out with a little support. Good luck!
One other thought. At our school, sight words are sent home, that is memorization. One component of reading is memorization. If you had to sound out each and every word, it would take 15 mins for 1 sentence.

Ugh...my ds brings home those "Zac is a Rat" pamphlets...sadly, they go right in our trash. I used to have ds read them, but now it's just so - STUPID.

Luckily, ds is getting his own reading group with teacher but I think she is still giving him books that are too easy, which I told her recently (nicely). We talked about ds 'whole language' reading, and she admitted that he probably won't even benefit that much from the phonics approach since so many of the phonics rules are broken more than they are used.

Melessa...you can't just chose your own AR books for ds? We just use our local library and choose books there for ds to test with. DS can test at any level he pleases...but of course we try to keep them level-appropriate. They won't let you do that?

Evemomma- we are reading higher level at home. I just want his teacher to acknowledge it. The school rule is you can't check a book out that is above your level. So, the books ds is reading at school are way to easy.

I haven't, and probably wouldn't want a skip this year for the same reason we didn't pursue early entry. We like having her around and are not eager to send her off to a full day any earlier than we have to. (K is 3 hours a day.)



Ugh, seriously?? Because Treasures actually IS what they use. I had no idea the program had it all spelled out what to do with a kid who's beyond grade level. I doubt it would be enough, but at least it would show that the teacher has some idea that different kids might need different instruction. As far as I can tell, every student in the class is reading the exact same things. I went to the classroom again this week and didn't see any differentiation- all the kids rotate through the centers doing the same activities, working with the same booklets.

In other news, I've been chatting with a mom who wants to try to get the school to start a homeschool enrichment program. Homeschooling is looking better and better. I'll probably start a new thread to solicit some input on that.

I'm not sure what program our district uses, but there are groups with differentiation. Yet, it's not enough for kids who learn quickly, eagerly and want something else new. In what I see, there is still a lot of review. Also, it has been interesting to see my ds in a group and how he fits in academically or strengths/ weaknesses. It has made it more clear that the "highest" group is not challenging at all. However, my ds is learning to cope (for good or bad- not sure yet). He does not complain or misbehave at school. He "races" ,as the teacher says, through he's required work with an acceptable level of neatness; so he can do something else like read. Then, he comes home and complains to me.
In saying this, a homeschool option may just be what's good for you! Keep us posted!