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    #143452 11/27/12 08:03 AM
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    Finally bit the bullet and am encouraging DS~7 to do more math outside of school mostly because placement achievement tests are looking at levels beyond grade. From 1st grade, to push his edge out further means better multiplication skills. I've gone over tricks for calculating, got him his own flash cards to play with, did a little bit of manipulatives for framing multiplication.

    Last night, I mentioned a "trick" to him.
    Me: "Y'know instead of calculating, you could just memorize all of the answers."
    Him: "Isn't that kinda cheating?"
    I gave him a conspiratorial "Shhh"

    Don't know if he'll run with that idea. But it could just as easily backfire due to his abstract sense of justice and not wanting to "cheat."

    Curious if others faced with kids who given four choices will always carefully negotiate for a fifth, who detect most subterfuges, see reverse psychology from a mile away, if pushed suddenly get dumb, etc. have other tricky techniques in their arsenals?

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    why is it cheating? if he understands the concept of multiplication, isn't it just familiarity which makes it rote. Cheating would be if he memorized with no understanding, imho smile

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    I totally understand, in that our district requires a certain achievement score in order to be considered for a certain math program. But, typically, many things need to be taught to attain such a score - the chicken-vs-egg.

    If possible, in your case, I would give math instruction at home, on a regular basis, and with a specific math program, i.e., I would be very deliberate about it rather than random. You'd want to be sure that the math concepts are understood sufficiently for a strong foundation. That way, regardless of what is being taught at school, your child can learn and be challenged at his own level and pace.

    On the one hand, memorizing is not cheating at all - indeed, many traditional school math programs involve rote memorization. On the other hand, I don't believe it's the best way to learn for many kids, especially non-traditional learners, and I'd worry that in the long run, practice may be better than memorization - it depends on the particular child.

    As to your last question, yes, I absolutely have a child who, given a choice between A and B, chooses C every. single. time.

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    Gracious--in DD's class, rote memorization of the tables is very explicitly encouraged. They were tested weekly on facts till they could produce them all with sufficient speed. Of course, I agree that they need to understand the concept, but memorization is considered necessary and not at all cheating in most classrooms.

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    Honestly, I had to encourage DD to STOP calculating and memorize. Calculating isn't likely to be quite fast enough in a pressured, timed situation for any child with any anxiety or handwriting issues.

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    Now, as to parent tricks...I have learned that telling DD neutrally that something isn't her best work and walking away works much better than any sort of "You need to do that over." But perhaps that's more obvious to most people than it was to me...

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    Our DD7 is working on multiplication tables at home, and we're overt about the goal being to memorize them. That was one of the few things I enjoyed when I was in elementary school, because it was the one thing we were allowed to do at our own pace. So not only was I not being held back by the rest of the group for once, but I was internally motivated to show off by being the first one done. Plus, every time we successfully tested out on a new number, we got a Blow Pop.

    One of the reasons she's homeschooling now is because her school was doing such an awful job at math... and this was one of the subjects she actually got to go to a gifted program for. They introduced the concept of multiplication through what they called a "matrix", which was just drawing boxes and then counting them.

    Okay, teachers, that's fine for an introduction... but if that's the tool you're going to give them, why are you asking them to solve for the total carpeted area in square feet for a reasonably-sized house? Haven't you skipped right past something rather important?

    I took one look at what she was working on and how she was attempting to solve it (and getting extraordinarily frustrated at all the counting), and I told her to stop, this is stupid, here's the multiplication table in your folder, use that instead. She got to see the value of that tool immediately. Later on, I quickly demonstrated a 4 digit x 3 digit problem for her, narrating as I worked. Then I drove the lesson home... the first step in learning how to do that is to learn this table.

    In order to correct the behavior of her teachers, I recommend they be ordered to clean out the sandbox with a spoon. That'll drive home the lesson of using the right tool for the job.

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    Back to stupid parenting tricks, our DD was randomly reading words from signs by the time she was 3, and when she was 4 she was frequently surprising us with the complexity of some of the ones she was reading. Yet despite this obvious ability, and her habit of bringing a huge stack of books to DW or myself to read to her daily, she still refused to demonstrate her reading ability to us by reading a book aloud after her 5th birthday. By that time, we finally figured out that task-avoidant perfectionism was the culprit, not a lack of ability.

    So, I pulled her aside and listed all the ways in which she's so much more advanced in abilities than I was at her age... except for one, because I was reading books to my mom when I was 4.

    That same week, she read a book to her mom.

    A few weeks later, she had taken over story time from her pre-K teacher.


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    Oh dear.. yes, yes, yes I have one of these kids. No selection of offerings is quite right (enough) for Miss Goldilocks, there...

    and she regards instructions as merely "suggestions" and generally figures that if it isn't HER idea, then it is probably something to be suspicious of.

    Pretty much every time I've attempted the "psych" methods on her, what I initially thought was very clever or wily turns out to be an abject failure that leaves me wishing that I'd just leveled with her.

    On the other hand, the "why do I need to learn this-- it's stupid" thing tends to be best resolved, as someone else has noted, with greater DIFFICULTY. Show the necessity not with simple examples (as most schools are wont to do for 'beginning' learners of concepts) but with examples which actually demonstrate a NEED for the tool/concept.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Pretty much every time I've attempted the "psych" methods on her, what I initially thought was very clever or wily turns out to be an abject failure that leaves me wishing that I'd just leveled with her.

    This partly explains why my default method is to level with my DD, because she's always suspicious of anything coming from her parents, obviously we must be biased. Her trust is a fragile thing, but I've been able to build it up gradually by being open and honest with her. If she catches me using "psych" methods on her, the trust will be shattered.

    Another side benefit is that, the few times I do resort to this sort of thing, she doesn't see it coming.

    On an everyday basis, I have to deal with her from the position of an eternal optimist, which is contrary to my own nature, so it's quite exhausting. But she has such a powerful, negative self-talk that I have to provide an equally positive counterweight. If I'm positive, and she tries and fails, it's my fault, and I have some explaining to do.

    This kid felt awesome about herself... until she went to school... sigh.

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