Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Kindergarten, experiences with skipping?

From another thread...

One of the things that DW and I will need to at least consider is skipping Kindergarten for DS5. I'd definitely be interested in hearing about other's experiences.

DS5 has been in preschool for the last 2 years (initially 2-day and then 3-day). Academically he has mastered everything they'll cover in K, and probably nearly everything in 1st as well. However, we are concerned about the big shift from half-day to full-day class. Another thing we're wondering if it makes sense to shift into 1st mid-year. That might be a way to "ease into" 1st.

We're hoping to talk with the school by the end of the month to see exactly what they recommend. This is our first child so this is the first time talking with people in our school district.

How was your experiences?

JB

We decided to start DS (who is now 5yrs 5mos) in K at the public school even though he had already been in a private K for six months for several reasons:

1. He was 4yrs and 9mos in September and we had concerns over the switch to full day.

2. We wanted him to get comfortable at that school and we thought that half-day Kindergarten with lots of music and art would be a good way to do that.

3. We knew (since older DD goes to that school) that the school administration would not agree to the skip until they had seen him in action over a period of months. Schools can be VERY hard to convince if you come in there saying your child has mastered their curriculum and should be skipped, even if it's true! They just don't get it until they actually see what your child is like.

We have had great success so far with a midyear switch to first and planned promotion to second next year. Compacting two grades into one year can help to smooth the transition and can relieve school doubts about educational "gaps." A lot depends on your child's temperment and appetite for a structured academic environment as opposed to the less structured K environment. Some schools have VERY structured K's, though, and in that case early entrance to first could be the better choice.

Have you checked your state and district guidelines yet?

We wanted to skip my DS5 at least a grade and it is impossible where we live. No early entrance, no skipping K to first grade. No exceptions. Our experience with our school district was nothing less than frustrating.

I hope yours is better.

JB -
I always reccomend parent sit in and observe what K looks like at their local school, as well as 1st grade - and perhaps 2nd grade as well.

gifted kids tend to have gifted friends and relatives, so you may be in for a shock as far as what is actually going on in 1st and 2nd.

1/2 day 'fun' K can be a good year, depending on the child's personality. Skipping 1st may be better. You may be able to guess from your child's preschool experience - how does he react to agemates? how does he react to being taught what he already knows?

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Grinity,

Just curious... shocked in what way? In terms of what they cover related to what our son may already know? Or in terms that they do get into more details that we're picking up from the published circulum?

We received a call from DS's preschool teacher which prompted us to check the local elementary circulum. From what we can tell he's well beyond what they'll cover in reading in math for the first couple of years. (For example, night time reading is reading 2 pages of Harry Potter and then he reads 2 paragraphs to me. His math skills are similarly advanced). During his first preschool year he was very quiet. His teacher would tell us that DS "doesn't say much, but when he does, it's profound." This year he's really come out of his shell and his teacher says that socially he's very well adjusted and plays just like everyone else.

I think we're relatively lucky in that DS seems to adapt pretty well and relatively speaking emotionally mature for his age. Our neighbor has a 7 year old (2 years older) who he plays with like a peer. He doesn't like to dwell too much on mastered concepts. He doesn't rebel, just doesn't show interest.

Skipping 1st would be an option we'd consider but we wondering if that's a better choice because he'd have some friends he'd leave behind.

Of course all of this is dependent on talking with the school district. We're still in the early stages, but we hope to sit down with them by the end of May.

JB

That's good to hear. I'm hoping that at a minimum our district is open to that. PA doesn't require K so I'm not sure how much communication there is between K and the elementary school. Since I've heard good things about our particulary K-school, I'm optimistic.

JB

We had wanted to do the same thing with our 5 year old. He is supposed to go into K next year and as a K teacher in the state, I know that he is well past any of the K curriculum - he is well into 2nd grade for reading and in some cases 3rd grade for math...so sitting around doing circle time while singing the ABC song won't cut the cheese with him :-) We found out in Florida, since K is not mandatory that they do not allow early entrance or skipping of Kindergarten. I have heard of a few cases where a child was allowed to attend K for a few weeks and then was "skipped" up to a TK-1 class which would still make her move on only to first grade the following year with the possibility of skipping at that point. So we have decided to opt out of the public schools for next year and stay with our Montessori school so that he can continue with that curriculum. I wish you lots of luck!

JBDad,

Our approach was this:

We treaded lightly with the school when we first talked to them. We approached them with general questions about their gifted program and acceleration policies. We did not go in with the expectation that a plan would be made right away. We made sure that he did every scrap of Kindergarten work and turned it in, no matter how easy it was. We recorded all his reading on the reading log. After his abilities became apparent to the teacher we started talking to her about differentiating his classwork. That led to a test to determine his reading level. We applied to DYS and asked the vice principal to write him a recommendation. To do that, she did a 1 hr "interview" with him where he did 2nd grade money problems for her.

The K teacher began to realize how difficult it would be for her to provide appropriate work for him in the K class. We never said he was "bored" but I expressed my concern that he was getting in the habit of tuning out in class and that the lack of challenge was not good for his work ethic.

I then went to work on the principal. I formally requested that he skip to second grade next year. She reluctantly agreed to let DS try going to first grade in the afternoons (after his morning K.) It went very well--I don't think she was expecting that. She began to tell me how "unusual" our request was so I brought her a copy of A Nation Deceived (vols. I and II) and his IQ scores. I said that I understood that our request was unusual but that this was an unusual situation. Two days later, he was officially a first grader.

The whole process took several months. I am in CA where K is not required either. In CA, you have to be at least 5 to be early entranced to first. DS was switched to first when he was 5yrs and 4mos.

It's good to sit in on the classes to get a feel, not just for the curriculum, but also for how structured the environment is.

If the K is in a separate school you may want to go to the Elem. school and talk to them about their early entrance requirements. You may also be able to find policies for your district and state online, which is a good idea. That way, you won't be snowballed by administrators who tell you it's "against their policy" to do something.

Cathy

Cathy, I smile every time I read your son's story, you just did such an excellent job advocating.
Now that we are winding down the school year, I realize kindergarten wasn't as bad as I thought, but in hindsight, maybe we should have done something different.
The benefits have been that it is a half day and for DD5, I think she really needed that.
Socially, I think she really enjoyed it. Although mid-way through the year we started to have some pretty big issues with boredom.
I know where I live, you do not need to send your child to kindergarten. A child is not considered truant before they are seven years old. I've heard quite a few parents of kids who were advanced did not,in fact, send their child to K at all.
It's hard to look back and say, we should have done this, or this would have worked out better, there's just no way to tell.
I think the best thing to do is pay attention to how your child is doing in the situation, trust your instincts and keep in communications with the school.

Disclaimer: My son went through public school and my goal for him was to be a 'good citizen' no matter what the personal cost. I figured that he was bright, but didn't see what difference that made. Ouch!

LOL JB -
There so much to be shocked over - it will vary depending on your expectations.

Here are some likelies -
1)How little new material will be availible for your child
2) How much time is spent on stuff that looks dull and easy
3) How appropriate the material is to most of the children in the classroom
4) What the other kids consider fun
5) How the children and teachers treat children who 'don't fit in.'
6) How the other children aren't expected to have any abstract thoughts
7) How arbitrary the rules are, and accepting the children are
8) How much of a time waster school that's taught below readiness level is for a child.
9) how much variety there is between teachers in the particular of - how do they react to ideas that they may not have thought of before. You want a teacher who treats a child with love and respect even when feeling 'a bit insecure.'
10) How much built in flexibility there is - are some children allowed to go up a grade for their reading or math times?

Now - I don't know how you will feel while observing, but my hunch is that your 'internal gauge' of how far from normal you kid actually is could use some tuning - mine sure needed to be at that stage. It isn't that schools are bad. It is that some children just are at a different place then they are expected to be. And the most chilling thing is that typically teacher don't see more than the iceburg's tip, if that much.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Not sure if you saw my first post about acrynoms... but for the longest time I was in complete denial about DS5 being gifted. I just thought he was a bright child. Being our first I didn't know that he was so far beyond his agemates until I went to K-school's orientation. That was the big shocker to me when I saw what they'll be teaching. At the end of the orientation I approached one faulty member and sheepishly explained to her that I think our child is seriously gifted and asked her about the gifted programs. As luck would have it, one of her children went through the local G&T program so I picked the right person to talk to. I came home and told DW "DS is gifted. I believe now". She smiled and said "I've been telling you this for a long time."

Yet I still had some lingering doubts. We went to the K pre-screen where he pretty much topped out on the screen. (3 parts to the evaluation. He had average motor skills, one perfect raw score, and a nearly perfect raw score for the other section. I forget what they were labeled but it was essentially math/logic and reading/verbal.) So basically he's hit a ceiling on their prescreen test. As luck would have it, the person that I talked to during orientation was the very same teacher that gave us our pre-screen scores. She said "I thought this might be you and your DS" and remembered our previous conversation. She gave us the name of a specialist to talk to. After we return from our vacation, we're going to see if we can arrange an informal meeting. As you mention Grinity, we're going to approach this very lightly. Our state provides for testing and identification so we should be able to request this in a very non-confrontational manner.

That's a good point too. Our K-school is separate. I'll take a look at elementary school and see what they say about entering early.

Very helpful to hear about other's experiences. Thanks.

JB

We're already getting a sense of #1.

JB

I said some of this in the other thread, but I'll post it here, too. If you find a non-academic half-day K program with an understanding teacher, it can be a very good year for an HG+ child. K was a good year for our DS6 because he had time to do his own stuff at home and he got to be social at school. The teacher's goal was to teach every child, no matter where they were academically. She was a pro at differentiation, and we loved her! Still do!

First grade--full-day highly academic--was abysmal. Just awful. So bad that we pulled him out of school. His 1st grade teacher didn't get him at all. She's a "get them all to read" specialist, and she didn't understand that he was bored silly with "a is for apple" all day, despite the fact that he had been IDd as GT in K, and his achievement test scores were DYS level almost across the board. I suspect several of the kids in the class were at least vanilla GT, because many of the kids we know who had never been discipline problems in K or preschool were acting out. She didn't see that this wasn't necessarily the kids' problem, but HERS!

I observed the class and was shocked by the way she taught. She told them the answers to the assignment literally 7 different ways, spending 15 minutes giving directions for a 3 minute assignment (!!!), and then she didn't understand why DS6 (and others) didn't bother to complete the assignment. Why should he? He already knew the answer! She had started bribing the kids to get them to cooperate (in addition to the taking away of recesses that she'd been doing all along) just before we pulled DS6 out of school. She had no control over that class.

I heard later that one other mom had at least threatened to pull her child out for homeschooling, and a third was advocating hard for her son (whom I know is at least MG) and feeling very disappointed and worried by the class. My own efforts at gentle advocacy were met with defensiveness and no changes. She wouldn't even put a harder book in DS6's backpack, a change that required literally nothing extra from her. With that refusal, I saw no point in trying further. If she wouldn't make that little change, she sure wasn't going to adapt the classroom work to meet his needs!

DS6 likes to play sports, so we weren't sold on a grade skip for him. A mid-year school change seemed risky, since we had done no research and had not budgeted for private school tuition even if we could find one that seemed right immediately. That left emergency homeschooling as our only solid option under the circumstances.

DH and I do thank this 1st grade teacher between ourselves, because I had never bothered to see DS6's test scores before. I was just happy he school had IDd him as GT without my having to advocate. I thought he was MG and that all was well. Then he hit 1st grade...and KA-BOOM! That awful experience is what got me over my GT denial (well, mostly...) and led us to see that DS6 wasn't "just" MG, but HG+, and a DYS candidate. It opened our eyes to what DS6 would have to go through in school--the boredom, the challenge to find true peers, the frustration, the underachievement, etc.--and there's a lot of value to that awareness.

Other than that fortunate awakening, our situation was perhaps the worst-case scenario, because we had the learn to read year with a teacher who was by all accounts defensive and threatened by GTness. A teacher open to GTness and willing to differentiate might have salvaged 1st grade. But it wouldn't have been as good a year as K. Even if we had skipped K and put him in 1st grade early, I think 1st grade would have been hard. Our better solution--though not as good as homeschooling has been for us--would have been to put him in K on time and then skip 1st grade. Second grade is supposed to be better in our area, less "get 'em all up to speed" and more open to differentiation, regardless of teacher.

Homeschooling has been nice because we can go deeper, not just faster. That works for us for now, and it allows us to put DS6 back into school in jr. high or high school at his age level if he wants to play sports. It seems to offer us the most flexibility to meet all of his needs, at least for now. Ask me again next year...

If you're considering grade-skipping, I think it pays to ask parents with kids older than yours about what happens in what year. Skipping the *right* grade(s) can really make a difference to finding a good fit, I think. Not all skips are created equal!

FWIW...

Kindergarten was a hell year for my child. I had read that many gifted kids do fine in K...not mine. It was an all day program so I think half-day likely would have been OK. My poor boy would sob nearly every night how boring his day was, how he didn't learn anything. He was so excited to go to school to learn all these cool things. Honestly, it was my fault. We were doing all this fun chemistry and physics and math and rich literature at home and he thought he'd get more at school. The teacher sent him out for reading group. they found 2 other boys who were near his level but according to DS they were several levels below. So
on he started reading chopping as they were due to choral reading. Man it was a hell year.

The saddest thing ever was after 1st grade orientation, I told him to make sure he continues to tell me how he feels about school. He looked at me and said, "Why? It didn't do any good last year. There was nothing we could do." I felt so helpless.

First was better but second hasn't been so good. Apparently, a lot of time is spent in second reviewing everything he either knew before 1st grade or learned at the first exposure in 1st grade. It's not until now they've hit "new" stuff but DS got it the first day in class but still had to do worksheets every night for 3 more nights incrementally extending the topic each time when he didn't need any of them. He goes get challenge math problems but that's not enough.

Granted, a lot of it is due to my son's personality. he hates repetition of any kind and just always want to be learning something knew.

I've been told 3rd grade gets better but honestly don't hold out much hope.

I think spending half a year in K, moving to 1st for the 2nd half, and then moving on to 2nd would have worked out fine for him.

I have another entering K in the Fall. Different kid for sure but just as advanced as his older brother. sigh....

My first clue should have been when teacher said at the First PT conference in November "Oh your son is doing great. He's ready for 1st grade." BUt our district has a no acceleration policy of any kind.

I know now from the wonderful folks here that those polices can be changed with the right advocating, test scores etc.

I'm reading a book "Re-forming gifted education" which is supposed to help me in writing an education plan for DS and presenting it to the school.

It does pay to check the private school carefully, though. I've heard some horror stories about private schools, too. They can tell you anything to get you in the door, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll deliver on their promises.

In fact, our DYS counselor told us they've had significantly better luck advocating in public schools because the private schools--even GT schools!--treat education solely as a business, and any deviation from the norm costs them money (or at least that's how many private schools seem to view it). I thought that was surprising.

JBDad - you kind of sound like my DH in the GT denial area. He was incredulous when I told him that most kids entering kindergarten do not know how to read at all. Although we have not yet entered the school system, I'll let you know my experiences and plans as someone who has already gone through the assessment process.

We worried about waiting for kindy until our son was 5, a requirement in our state. He was reading at 2nd-grade level (based on book descriptions) when he was 3 1/2. Our state requires IQ of 130 to be early entranced, so we found a gifted specialist to test our son. We expected he would be MG, and were floored to find he had DYS numbers. The assessor told us that in our smallish district, our son would likely not find anyone like himself through high school. She recommended that we don't start K early, but let him have fun for another year learning at home. She made it clear we would have to be flexible in our education, and thought we would probably have to move at some point, and homeschool too. Our son is in a 2-day a week preschool, with a preschool teacher who gets him and provides advanced materials for him. We will keep DS in this preschool next year too (he doesn't turn 5 until next Jan).

DS4 is not one of those kids who will follow rules or sit still "just because." So, we're thinking that another year of maturing would be good, then we'll put him in K. We have good friends with a HG+ child who have been working with the school system for a few years now, and our schools are becoming more GT-friendly. We hope to talk with the school district ahead of time to find options for our son before he goes to K (e.g., reading group with older kids, etc., grade-skipping) We are taking a wait-and-see approach. If the school is willing to work with us, that would be the best. If not, we will ask for partial homeschooling. And if that doesn't work, we'll do full-time homeschooling.

We have found great benefits in our son's assessment. We received advice tailored to our son and our family and our needs. We now know the obstacles we will probably encounter, and we were given many resources to help us on the way. And we found out we were not crazy. It was a huge relief, in many ways.

Sure. I'm glad it's worked for your family.

I'm just saying that I think any private school is a caveat emptor situation, especially since many won't refund tuition if the school doesn't work for your child. If it's a bad fit, it could be an expensive bad fit.

I was really surprised about even private GT schools being trouble for DYS advocacy. That was downright shocking to me! I thought they would be the most flexible and receptive of all, but apparently there's no guarantee even there!

I guess that does make sense. If all the kids at the school are GT, and the school doesn't recognize LOGs, then maybe they'd be the least flexible option...

Anyway, carry on!

Way to go with the quote boxes CFK!

Chiming in about private schools. We live 45 miles from a major metro area, and I do know many of the "fabulous" private schools claim that they don't do GT because their curriculum is challenging enough for all their students. In our small city, where students are harder to get, it seems some of the very small private schools are more willing to work with you in tailoring education. Unfortunately, the one school with the advanced curricula in town (for many subjects...) doesn't happen to believe in dinosaurs, which would be a problem for DS4!

I agree with CFK�s post above regarding the difficulty of dealing with public schools in our area. That said, I think I would be very happy with some of the school districts just over the state lines.

Regarding the original question concerning skipping K, we have the unique perspective of one child who attended K for two years and one who skipped it altogether.

Our daughter was early entranced to K at private pre-K school and made to repeat it when we moved her to the public school because she missed the first grade cut-off by less than six weeks. The standards were lower for her second year of K at the public school. She had mastered every objective for the year (as listed on the report card) by age two. Yada yada yada, she was moved to Catholic school and skipped 2nd grade for an effective reversal of the public school retention and lives happily ever after!

Our son was early entranced to 1st grade at the same Catholic school, skipping K altogether. He had already �checked out� of pre-school two years prior. Luckily, his pre-school was flexible enough that they allowed him to read during nap time and play quietly with building materials instead of participating in circle time. They were also the first to mention the �G� word.

Skipping first hasn�t been enough of an accommodation for him, but I can�t even imagine how miserable he would have been had we kept him with his �legal� grade in our public district!

St. Pauli girl,
We happen to be Catholic, so sending our kids to Catholic school makes sense as we don�t have to worry about weekly religion classes for Communion and Confirmation preparation. That said, we send them to Catholic school for the more advanced education rather than religious training. Luckily, the curriculum is in agreement with mainstream education and science. This year, DS learned in-depth about human evolution in 6th grade and DD had very candid sex ed in 8th grade. Respect for religious diversity is also a prominent theme.

I would also avoid a school which claims dinosaurs never existed!

Hi JBDad:
We did skip K. Here's my son's story in a not so small nutshell:

Jan 2006, son was eligible for K entry in Aug 2006. We realized his abilities had already passed K expectations. Had him privately tested, confirmed this and had a report that said "he's already mastered all K curriculum."

March, 06: I attended the K orientation/registration. Was made painfully aware that the K curriculum would be a repeat of preschool/daycare - I mean REPEAT. And we were already having behavioral issues at daycare which I finally connected to his level of boredom. DH and I decided that for our child skipping K would be best. We decided this based on his personality (at the time very routine oriented, rigid expectations, highly emotional and intense) and his past experiences (daycare/preschool setting) and his ability/achievement scores.

June 2006: we had him privately tested at U of Iowa because the school refused to test before he was attending K. We felt quite strongly that K attendance would be setting him up for behavior problems - again, based on my son's personality and needs. We felt that starting K and then transitioning to 1st would be harder for him than just skipping K.

August 2006, two weeks before school was to start: met with school and reviewed the private testing report. Son had also been briefly assessed by the school psychologist the day before (at my insistence because no one at the school had even *met* my son yet wanted to make placement decisions!). We were prepared for a fight, but the principal opened the meeting and then announced that the staff was in agreement with skipping K. Basically the private report stated that K attendance would require "significant differentiation of curriculum" and I believe that the K teacher couldn't/wouldn't do that.

Today, he is finishing up 2nd grade, but in 3rd for math this year. We are looking for further differentiation and compacting next year, but not more skipping right now. It has been a good placement for our son, at our rural school. We are glad he skipped K and wouldn't do it any differently if we had to do it over.

Hope our experience helps you to make the right choice, although Carolyn "Hoagie" will tell you that you really sometimes need to choose the "least worst educational option" and be happy with that. There often isn't a "best option" for these kids. Best of luck. I'm sure you'll find the best answer. Advocate assertively, gently, persistently. It pays off. And remember that no one knows your child as well as you do.

Wow, lots of different viewpoints and experiences. To me it seems I can sum up by saying I have to pay attention to what is going on and research any learning option I am considering very carefully.

Dazey, I'm sorry about the horrid K situation. I'm going to read that book as well.

Reading the success stories helps me believe that I will also have a success story for my girls, I just have to figure out the right plan for them.

Neato

Sorry... looked around but didn't see it... what's "DYS candidate"?

JB

The subject has come up. It's not out of our reach, but it would be a strain. We'll going to consider all of our options...

BTW, it's really nice hearing how other's have dealt with this. Thanks.

JB

Great post, thanks. Yes, during K-school orientation they said things like "we would like it if children can do 1-to-1 nummber correspondence counting and be able to recognized their letters", I said "ut-oh" to myself. That was the moment that I realized that there was a sizable gap between DS and agemates. DS wasn't a super early reader (although I suspect he was sight reading more than we realized at age 4) but he's just been an amazing sponge, particularly over the last month or so. Very astute with math and just fascinated with patterns and very large numbers. Funny story: during the K pre-screen they asked him to count to 20. So he goes -20, -19, -18, ..., 0, 1, 2, ... 20. Hey! They didn't say start at 1!

JB

Thanks for sharing!

JB

Sorry, JBDad. I didn't mean to be obscure there!

I just added "DYS" to the list of abbreviations sticky. I can't believe we forgot to add that one!

How can a school not believe in dinosaurs? Not accepting evolution, I get. (I don't agree, but I get.) Not accepting dinosaurs is just...well...

I'm stumped!

I think the idea is that dinosaurs were not mentioned in the bible, so they must be some sort of a hoax. I try to be open minded, but some things are quite hard for me to understand. I just have to be a little careful what I say in my small town, since I know some of the people whose kids go to this school. I was so excited when I first heard of the school. Our furnace guy noticed DS doing something amazing and told me of how advanced the curriculum was at his school, and how it would be great for my bright kid. It was so disappointing to later learn about the DD (dinosaur denial).

IIRC, this is one of the theories of strict creationism: the earth is exactly 5,000 years old and fossils we're "created" when the earth was created. Something like that.

JB

LOL about the DD, and sorry about the disappointment.

Where do they think the dinosaur fossils come from? Any idea? Is it all some grand conspiracy to mislead people perpetrated by...? I'm at a loss...

Ah, thanks, JBDad. My ignorance is showing...

re: dinosaurs

When we moved here long time ago, we went to a huge "dinosaur quarry" for the weekend. The place is incredible - tons of sceletons lying there in the rocks, right in front of your eyes.

On the way back we stopped at Target, and the cashier has asked us what we did this weekend. We told her. The response was:
"well, who really knows how old they are"

WE WERE STUNNED!

What a cool place! Wow! And I don't blame your stunned response! I'd have been hard pressed to hold my tongue...

One of the things I have heard/read from the creationists is that "there is no accurate way to tell how old fossils really are." and "scientists have no way of accurately testing ages of old things."

Those statements bother me to no end.

Ummmm... yeah. I'd better keep my mouth shut




Ok, I have to say that there is a difference between accuracy and precision. But I folks who hold these types of opinions are not usually never swayed by logical arguments. As a young college student I used to debate these things vigorously (and enjoyed it!) but I'm past all that now. I think.

I apologize, Dottie. I overgeneralized.

But, I think Dottie, your friend is the exception rather that the rule. I would LOVE to talk to him, though. I became really interested in theology last year, it's fascinating and complex and fun if you find the right people to discuss with!
You have to be careful though, I friend of mine accused me of being influenced/controlled by the devil because I did not agree with her on a point she found defining.
Ouch.

See, I'd have too much fun with that, 'Neato! Oh, so many ways to play with her head after that!!! (And I'm sorry, but someone who actually says that to you mid-discussion is asking for it, said the former teacher of argument...)

I know, I know! Trust me I know how to shut a person down with my verbal skills. It's just that, in this situation, I just backed away quietly.
She scary!

Oh, I'm not talking about shutting her down. I'm talking about keeping her going! <evil cackle>

I'm not usually a mean-spirited person, but saying that you're working for Satan is just too rich. It needs to be played along with!!!

Of course, you did say she was a friend, so maybe this response would be inappropriate on my part, but I probably wouldn't be able to help myself. I hate smug and illogical people. Saying you're in league with the devil as a way to deal with a disagreement is both smug and an illogical, and it BEGS for someone (me!) to poke it!

She's not a friend anymore.
Actually I thing accusing a person of being possessed during a religous debate is pretty diabolical in itself.

EXACTLY! I mean, it's a total conversation-stopper. And it just begs for a response that really DOES sound satanic, or one even more holier-than-thou than hers, or...

The mind boggles!!!!

Do you see why I backed away quickly and quietly...........

A wasted mind is a terrible thing not to play with!

<EEEEE-VIL!>

hee hee hee LOL

Don't mind me... I just read "The God Delusion" and it got me all fired up.

We're going to discuss in our bookclub next month. That should be interesting...

I'd like to be a fly on the wall, but not actually there. Hope no one accuses anyone of being the devil for making valid assertions.....

Well, I might, just to stir things up, 'Neato.

<smirk>

(Not really!)

I just wanted to add, as a mother of gifted children and a 1st grade teacher, that I feel that it is my job to meet eac child in my classroom at their level, especially in reading. I have 2 PG students in my class now and feel that I have been very successful at enriching their ed. this year. They have made tremendous progrgess and learned a little common sense and social skills as well. I often see gifted students whose parents want to skip them a grade (or 2), but do not realize that their education should be tailored to where they are anyway. These students also often need to be with same aga peers to learn social skills.

I know you didn't say all students and do not know my son but I have heard this statement so many times and still have an issue with it. My son has social skills that seem natural when he is with older children and adults. He can make conversation, he can talk on the phone, he has manners. There are no signs of social issues except when he is with younger children. What social skills can my son gain for other 5 year olds that he doesn't already have? Why should my son have to learn to play with other 5 year olds? Why should I force him to love the potty humor (which he already did and moved past at 3 years old). Why should my son be held back to be with age peers who do not share any interests with my son? I get frustrated when I hear this statement made as a generalization.

I had the same bone to pick, crisc.

I think kids need to spend some time with other kids of *some* age. But kids make the best social connections with true peers, as distinguished from agemates. For HG+ kids, true peers and agemates are rarely the same people.

For myself, keeping me with age-peers did nothing for my social skills. Zip, zilch, nada. I didn't begin to develop my social skills until I was gradeskipped and placed in a GT school.

The assumption is peers teach social skills, which isn't always the case, particularly with HG kids.

I feel like my DS7 generally enjoys his age peers at school. Especially the MG boys that enjoy being class clowns. Had a few disciplinary issues lately due to this. 40+% of these kids test at least MG, so maybe that makes a difference. There are maybe 1-2 other kids in class that are beyond MG. He also really enjoys older boys. When things digress to fighting or screaming with groups of boys DS just walks away and does tend to get frustrated.

However, academically this year has been a disaster. I'm not sure I could identify that he's really learned anything at school. We're definitely hanging in there for the social aspect until the end of the year. I would love to keep him with age peers, but I don't see a way to make that work. He would need multiple grade skips to actually be learning. But based on his size alone (48 lb 1st grader), I'm not really anxious to do it.

Anyway gtmom, you sound like a gem of a teacher. I wish there were more of you in the world! I do think the social issues need to be decided on the basis of each child's personality.

To be honest I really cannot see how my son could be in the 1st grade classroom while still being taught math on his level, which is currently 4th grade in K and will be at the very least 4/5th next year. How about his spelling? He can spell as an average 4th grader too. How about his reading and science? No offense, but no matter how much I try I just don't see how this could work. I think it's pretty much impossible to teach such children and still teach the rest of the kids who are years behind academically.

I am glad that there are 2 PG in your class (quite a rarity unless you are a gt teacher) at least they have each other. As for no skipping, I highly recommend reading Nation Deceived.

http://nationdeceived.org/

It also means you are at the mercy of each teacher every year to differentiate the curriculum. If you get one who doesn't/won't do it, your child is effectively held back a year (or more, depending upon how much differentiation has taken place before the bad year). Plus the child does not get credit for taking subjects or understanding topics in case of transfer or moving up to the next level of school, so s/he may have to repeat subjects multiple times because the informal nature of differentiation doesn't "count" in the formal structure of the school system.

A good teacher makes a HUGE difference--the teacher can be the only difference between a dismal year and a good one, in fact!--but I really don't think differentiation is any substitute for systemic changes that support a GT child. It's better than nothing, but as a system, I don't think it's much better than nothing.

But, ah! Would that every teacher believed in tailoring the education to meet the child where s/he is!

I will say again (sorry) that we have done well with year to year differentiation. Of the 7 years that DS has been in public school, he has had teachers who did a great job in 5 of those. And by a great job, I mean that they have really pushed him to think deeply about what is being taught to all the kids as well as helping him move ahead on his own. Of the 2 not great years, one teacher was adequate (and DS was very fond of her) and one year (first) would have been a loss, except the GT teacher started pulling him out on Fridays (and whenever else she could) to play games and do puzzles with her GT 4th and 5th graders. Every teacher has helped DS grow as a person and fully participate as a citizen of the school and the community.

Each kid, school, teacher is so different, I just get nervous when I see any post that suggests that there are absolute right or wrong ways to create a good educational situation for our unique kids.

I agree, acs. I find it impossible to generalize these kids. Some of them- there's no way they can be in a typical age-based classroom. Others, maybe. But they are all so different and have different needs.

Sorry to make you nervous, acs. And I'm definitely not saying differentiation can't work. It worked like a charm for us one year, and then failed miserably the next, in part BECAUSE it had been such a success the year before. Case-by-case, it's hit or miss. And there are definitely some big hits!

But I'm not really talking on a case-by-case basis, as you are, I think.

I'm saying that as a systemic solution to the problem of how to handle the spectrum of learning speeds in a classroom, differentiation is the one that's hardest on the teacher to implement and the one that puts the kids at the greatest potential disadvantage, for all the reasons I listed in my previous post. The damage when differentiation doesn't work is worse than that of most of the other possibilities for dealing with GT kids.

I'm saying that differentiation is last on my personal list of solutions in terms of the big picture of GT education.

I'm saying that I wish differentiation weren't the default mode and sum total for GT education today (maybe with an hour pull-out a week, as if kids are only GT an hour a week...), but instead were an extra thing we did to make things even better for the kids.

We are working within an educational system, and I think trying to think only in terms of case-by-case is limiting what we accomplish. Yes, the kids are all unique and have unique needs, but what solutions could we implement that might do a *better* job of serving *more* of them?

Is that less nervous-making?

Kriston, your big picture GT education thinking is very important. I guess I generally don't think about that, because in a sense I'm in the trenches, dealing with individuals; and time is of the essence. That is limiting, as a whole.
I think the problem is, that no matter how the education is accomplished when the child is pre-college, they all go into the same tube at the end, hence the problem. All kids are supposed to get good grades and good SAT scores and such. The backlash to any gifted education(these days) is the kids are seen to get an advantage to college entrance. So the gifted education is challenged, watered down, eliminated; or becomes a kind of college prep.
Times have changed. It used to be easier to get into colleges, this has certainly been detrimental to gifted education. Which is really sad to me, because obviously, the college standards for admission have ruined the lower education. With the current college situation, I can't see how gifted education can improve ideally.

Yes. I always feel comfortable giving you a hard time.

I do think that mixed ability classrooms with differentiation have a lot to offer kids. [I have been in the work world for over 2 decades now and I have always worked in a mixed ability work-place. And public school helped me adapt to some pretty intersting workplaces.] But to really work on a systematic level, there needs to be a much higher adult to student ratio and support for the differentiation. Right now we have to depend on having highly motivated hard working teachers. Many teachers could differentiate if given the right tools and training and a normal number of students.

I was wondering where you got this data.

I know that there are plenty of good colleges that are not meeting their quotas and would be happy to have a higher number of qualified applicants. My understanding from something I read in the Chronicle of Higher Education a while back is that the real problem is that students are focusing all their efforts on the biggest name colleges (which may not actually providing the best education, but have a lot of prestige) rather than on colleges that are good fits for the student and can still give them an excellent education. They are not applying to these schools, not because they are not good, but because they are not famous. So there are kids who don't get into any of the big name schools and get frustrated while, meanwhile, a college that would have been a good fit for them doesn't make its enrollment goal because the student and the college never knew about each other.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear where you got your information.

Acs, I work at a college, so it's all in terms of reports. Reports that state that there's more of a population of students at college age right now (a bubble so to speak) and more students than ever apply and go to college than ever before-- these are two of the large driving forces.

I am aware there are decent colleges that students can get into; according to all the info I have read, it's expensive, so the colleges that offer the most aid or are the lowest price are getting the students, and the decent small liberal arts colleges are getting less students due to cost. So from what I have seen it is not due to name branding, it is due to cost. (I am at a state school so we are certainly the best date in town)

I think where you do your undergrad is less important than people think. I went to Linfield College and then went on to get my PhD in applied math at UC Berkeley. My husband went to Cal Poly and also has a PhD in math from Berkeley. BTW, I highly recommend Linfield for gifted students. I was a young college student and it was a great fit for me. There is a lot of personal attention from professors including student/professor research collaborations (I was a coauthor on a paper with my physics prof), an honors program where honors students do a thesis project with an advisor and then present it to the school (I did mine on fractals ), and a great international program for study abroad opportunities in several countries (I went to Austria.) I had a full-tuition honors scholarship--my family paid room and board for me.

Thanks, and, yes, that makes sense. It's a larger issue of who is trying to get into college and how they are going to pay for it. State schools are overfull while private colleges (especially the ones without name recognition) are struggling to fill all their seats.

My affiliations are all with small liberal arts colleges so I'm seeing all these empty seats in schools that are very strong academically so it surprises me to see a comment about the shortage of slots. The real issue is money; in-state tuition, scholarships, etc. If every kid could just go wherever they would thrive academically without worrying about paying for it, then we wouldn't have this problem. Is that right?.

(Sorry to put all this college discussion on a kindergarten thread! They do grow up fast, but not THAT fast!)

Ah, another Northwesterner! I like Linfield a lot too. In fact, I think almost all small liberal arts colleges are great fits for gifted young adults because they have lots of opportunities to be truly mentored by smart dedicated faculty. My DH and I met at another small liberal arts college in the NW and also went on to get graduate degrees at UCB. WE were apalled by how their undergrads (especially freshman) were taught there compared to what we had received (and we can say that because we were the ones teaching the UCB undergrad courses! My DH's advisor told him not to waste his time preparing classes because he had more important things to do.)

And you make a good point about the scholarship money. Really smart kids and ones with high financial need rarely pay anywhere close to the sticker price at a liberal arts college. So don't let the list price frighten you.

And well you should! I always enjoy it when you keep me honest!