Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "best" is NOT a good goal-- explaining

Okay-- so we're having trouble with a teacher. The same teacher that was involved (integrally, one might say) in the holy-cow-nuclear-scale meltdown of perfectionism and anxiety of two years ago (which is fully documented here, for those that care)--

Him: I believe in {DD}-- she's SOooooooo capable! I just want her to meet (very high) standards. My goal is to instill a better work ethic in her, since I see that as something missing in a lot of high-potential kids. My teaching philosophy is about having kids meet very high standards in order to grow.

Me: Yes, I understand. My goal, also, is to have a child whose work ethic can match her potential. We're working on it. The problem is that if you trigger her perfectionism, there is no reasoning with her. By making it so that she needs 98% in the rest of the semester, you've just created a perfect storm for her in which she feels that earning 100% is far more crucial than learning anything.

For my Davidson cronies only--> {But-- the material itself, while INTERESTING to DD, (it's American Government) just isn't that difficult for her, fundamentally. The class is neither paced nor leveled "properly" for her.}


The problem is that, judging from your comments (which are appreciated, by the way); you see this assessment as formative. The problem is that from the way the system is set up, it's summative. Those two things are not compatible with a child like my daughter. This just feels punitive, and now rather than working TOWARD something, she's going to be working to AVOID something instead.


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The real problem here is that this teacher simply does NOT understand that we don't WANT our DD approaching material beneath her level with this "banzai" kind of "giving it her ALLLLLLL" approach. That's what gets us into a position of "my best = 100%, ergo, if I don't get 100%, I have failed."



Frankly, the teacher is NOT going to want to hear that this class doesn't merit my daughter's "best" effort, but that's the bottom line.

This is a class where we WANT her to be doing "good enough" work, not "my very best." The "work ethic" class is AP PHYSICS this year, tyvm. That's the one that meets the demands of her proximal zone, and will allow her to actually learn something on that front.

What do I say instead?? (My bunker position thus far was to give him the lowdown on the perfectionism issues, the degree to which this is a problem, and point out that there is more than one way to get my daughter's "best" out of her-- and he agreed to discuss the problem with the "Barracuda" who has been getting my daughter to work "harder/better/more" for about six years now-- without traumatizing her or triggering horrifying levels of perfectionism in the process.)



HELP!

Oh, and so much for not having a year where I get to be "that parent."

At least I addressed that openly and laughed about it with him. :sigh:

I think I might approach it as a self-determination goal: "My hope for this class is that Debbie will learn to set appropriate standards for herself, and to develop healthy ways to meet her own standards and goals." IIRC, your dd is in high school (correct me if I'm wrong?)-- by this age, especially with the bright kids, they're usually all about getting ready for college. Self-determination should be Goal One in that case.

As for being "that parent", I actually had a T-shirt that said "Attila the Mom" at one point. Most of the teachers thought it was funny.

I don't know. But I *do* want to thank you for sharing your experiences with your daughter here. While she is way more gifted than I was or than my dd is, I totally identify (on a smaller scale) and really believe that if I had a parent advocating for me the way you are it would have made a significant difference.

And this is a hard concept for my dd too. Sometimes she is paralzyed by perfectionism. Sometimes she does a half-assed job and seems totally content with it, (which for some things is OK...but sometimes I feel like, "really? that is your best work?")

But then in her conference yesterday (she skipped 6th, first teacher conference for 7th) with straight As in advanced classes, this is her self report:
3 things you are happy with so far this year:
1. I had all As at the end of the 9 weeks
2. I have done fairly well in my work
3. I have enjoyed learning the majority of the things I've learned.

3 things you think you need to improve
1. keeping all of my grades as As for throughout the next 9 weeks
2. Some of my test grades
3. Some of my grades on work

I just didn't have a good feeling about this. We have tried to emphasize that it isn't the grade that matters but that she tries her best and is learning...but this makes me think she isn't getting it!

So, not very helpful to your situation. I wish you could get through to the guy. Interested to hear other suggestions.

I've put my own call in to The Barracuda. She "gets" my kid and has known her for many years. She's pretty much the only teacher that has the real goods when it comes to PG issues. She calls DD on it when she wants more out of her, or thinks that DD is slacking... but she NEVER triggers the perfectionism in the process, and never makes DD feel 'threatened' this way.

Hopefully she can give me some advice on how to explain that "good enough" needs to be the goal here, in a way that doesn't mortally offend Mr. Do-Your-Best.

This is a problem because Mr. Teacher sunk a midterm because he is trying to cajole/provoke better (?) writing on short-answer/essay questions. So an exam that should have been ~95% (given her level of mastery/demonstration of understanding) wound up being a 67% once he was done with it.

Given how subjectively he was grading her responses (well, but you didn't actually STATE that being able to vote was a "positive" thing... ) , and given that he actually SAID to me on the phone this morning that he was viewing this more about "form than substance," I think that is more than a touch unfair.

The problem here is that he has, with one stroke on a single (flippant/bad/cavalier) day narrowed DD's margin of error for an A in the class (which everyone agrees matches her level of mastery) to a dangerously thin <2%.

Given how badly constructed the multiple choice tests are, and given how divergent DD's interpretation tends to be with material under her proximal zone (as this is, being politically incorrect momentarily)...

well, that's GOING to wake up the Perfectionism Monster that we have worked SO hard to vanquish. I just feel sick.

LOL-- I feel like Attila the Mom a lot.

I don't understand the 98% for an A fully either - is this an objective class grading matrix or something the teacher is requiring only of your dd?

I honestly have no idea how I'd handle the teacher - but whether or not the grade scoring standard is the same for all students and was put out as the standard at the beginning of the semester is going to make a difference in how I think I would approach the situation.

polarbear

I think sometimes people who haven't encountered perfectionism up close and personal don't really understand that it can be a bad thing. I think I might try using phrases like "pace herself" and "focus on learning more than performance" and "enjoy her work" and "take risks" for the things you want her to do. Good luck!

Yes, without self-determination, you kind of wander around life feeling completely lost and confused.

At least that was my college experience, since I was waiting for structure and instructions.

Why am I here, I wondered.

I never was able to answer that question.

Hey-- it creeps ME out, too. But he's the one who went there, with the notion that he's grading HER the way he is because of her "unmet potential" or some such thing.

I'd be happy to leave it alone if I felt that there WAS something to be learned from the experience.

It's just that the lesson that the teacher is trying to impart (by manipulating the grading-- as noted above-- and he admitted this to me) is NOT one that he is going to succeed in imparting to a perfectionistic PG student in this manner. He missed the target here, BIG time.

This is the issue-- the answer is YES, just one, and no, it wasn't. Because the teacher wanted to use it FORMATIVELY... which is great, and I'm all for.... but you can't also then use it SUMMATIVELY, since such grading doesn't accurately reflect the student's mastery of the material.

Her college prospects aren't what is at stake. She could easily afford to squeak by with a C in this class and not have it impact her future that much.

What's at stake is her underlying well-being. She has B's on her transcripts. Those are not where she's had problems emotionally. The problems are when she has a teacher like this that wants to "teach her a lesson" about something larger than the course material (character development, presumably), and while I support that GOAL... the method leaves a LOT to be desired. It's not really possible to teach this particular lesson (that effort is proportional to results) with material that isn't in the student's proximal zone. KWIM?

There are additional problems in this system: a) the teachers have LITTLE contact with students, so they don't get the normal 'feedback' loop to adjust for individual temperment/needs very well (which is where parents like me come in), and b) the teachers also don't write any of the (frequently crappy) assessments.

That's why using the major assessments formatively is a very dangerous thing-- they are NOT intended that way. The teacher is being a bit of a vigilante here, IMO, and he's not well-positioned to do this with my daughter in particular given their past history. She has NO rapport or trust with him.

Right-- and my greatest worry after my phone conversation with him is that HIS goals for my child are diametrically opposed to this.

He wants her to focus on "meeting high standards" and "working harder" and being relentless in her "pursuit of excellence."

I just thought, "Ohhhhh, NOOOOOOOOOO" when I heard him say some of those things. She had been doing SO well with this class in particular (enjoying the material even though it is a bit on the slow/remedial side), and that was an appropriate challenge for her-- she and he do NOT communicate well (on either side, I might add), and she doesn't trust or like him.

So for her, that WAS an appropriate-- and actually somewhat DAUNTING-- set of learning challenges. She had to meet the challenge of learning from someone that she DOES NOT LIKE. She had to force herself to meet the PACE of the class even though it's too slow and the content isn't as deep as she'd like. She was figuring out how to meet external standards while still maintaining her own inner goals with the material. KWIM?

Now he's decided that that isn't what he wants her to get out of the class. Gaaaaa!!!

Okay-- several people have asked about the percentages.

The exam that was savaged (as some kind of object lesson in 'striving to do your best') earned a 67%. Probably a less subjective grading of that exam would have earned more like an 80%, even with a pretty harsh set of standards.

That single exam is 22% of an exam composite which is 40% of the course grade.

Ergo, that exam is 8% of the grade in the class. Earning 67% on it basically drops the course percentage by about 6%.

Anything less than 93% in a class is not an A. Ergo, my child's new "perfect" score in the class just became 94% as a result of this one exam, leaving her in the position of needing to earn 99-100% in order to earn an A in the course. There is no question in my mind that this is now her primary goal, which is a shame, because she HAD actually been engaged and learning, against considerable odds.

It is not comforting, by the way, when the student's teacher doesn't seem able to "follow" the math there, when my 13yo worked it out in about two minutes.


And also on the subject of unfair grading practices, here's a lovely wrinkle. In the case of STRUGGLING students, they are encouraged to "retake" poor assessments for better grades. High-achievers are frequently ineligible to repeat anything. Yes, that's right. Same course, same material, same assessments, and standard policy is to use assessments FORMATIVELY for some students, and exclusively summatively for others. This is the single biggest gripe that my DH has about our school. It really burns his britches that DD can't "re-do" a lab report that she earns a B on, but a student who earns an F on the same lab report is walked through doing it over-- for an improved grade.

You are NOT being "that parent." HE is being "that teacher."

Let us re-examine the problem from that perspective.

The teacher is failing to see that his definition of "very high standards" is not an objective absolute. If I've read correctly, he's created an arbitrary set of objectives that he made up just for your daughter. This is not acceptable unless she signed up for some special "extra honors" section of the class that demands performance different from the rest of the students. If she's just a regular student like everyone else, IMO a formal written protest to Mr. or Ms. TeacherBoss is in order. Argument: if he made up new rules for one exam for one person, who's to say that he won't keep changing the goalposts?

This approach does NOT allow a student to "grow." It engenders feelings of helplessness in general and negativity about a subject.

Does this teacher understand the damage he could do here, and the damage that he did two years ago?

Is there another section of this class (with another teacher) that your DD can take?

My opinion, FWIW, is that this guy needs to understand that

• You are NOT "that parent"
• He's the one who's wrong here;
• He has no right to impose his random idea of what's best for your daughter on her. He clearly doesn't know her well enough anyway.

My heart is just breaking....

My DD is working on a quiz for a different class and has now been working on a pair of "short answer" questions for an HOUR. Yup. Because she can "make them better."

After all, she still hasn't really done her "best" since there are still... er... things that she knows that she hasn't expressed? Things that the textbook covered? The possibility that the teacher may, at some point in the past or future, discover a written answer which is superior to what she currently has on paper?





*#%^*#$^%$!!!!!!!

If you've already spoken to him on the issue, and he hasn't yielded, then the next step is to call a meeting with the principal wherein you watch him squirm to explain why he's applying a different grading standard to your child than to everyone else in the class.

I agree with Dude. Try a face to face with the teacher. If that does not work then step up another rung. If the material was below what your daughter can do, I could understand a teacher pushing beyound the current standard. However that can be done without using a 100% on existing as the critiera.

Well, I had the conversation, all right.

I eventually got tired of rehashing the same ground over and over and just took the bull by the horns. I didn't come right out and use the phrase "well beyond the scope of this course" but it was a VERY narrow thing.

I very definitely DID use the term "good enough" though he deliberately misunderstood that phrase and I had to go back a couple of times and rephrase/explain it. I helpfully used the example of my DD working and reworking and reworking a pair of little five point questions on that quiz today in my explanation. I seriously do NOT think that he has ever actually heard of/seen a hard-core perfectionist in full flight. :sigh: I found it a bit frustrating, though, to get half way through an explanation only to find out that he was still "stuck" on something I'd said at the beginning.

Come to think of it, this explains a lot about what he doesn't care for in my daughter's writing as well. One point which he cleared up definitely sheds some light on things.

He evidently expects students to "assume that they are offering an explanation to someone who has NO background in the material." Whoah. Really? NONE? Do they have good English skills? Know that we have a single POTUS at any one time? Should one explain what is meant by terms like "governance?" What about "representative?" Is this mythical tabula rasa a foruth grader? A college student? A dog?

I pointed out that this particular requirement is a little... er... idiosyncratic. (He seemed to be a bit nonplussed though entertained by this word, by the way... perhaps it was new? Anyway-- that's what I meant about frustrating.) I did explain that in most coursework, students are encouraged to answer exam questions as though they were addressing: a) a reasonably competent classmate and/or b) the course instructor. Ergo, while there may be nothing wrong with his standard, it is most certainly NOT normative, and probably requires a bit more emphasis for students to understand what he intends there.

At any rate, I feel that he IS understanding that I'm hardly looking for him to apply some kind of 'softer' grading standard to my child (which he at one point suggested gingerly, and I quickly dismantled), but on the other hand, I'm ALSO not looking for him to go deciding what HER goals ought to be for this class, and the fact is, he's just transformed ALL of her former goals into "do not fail to obtain 93% average in class," which supercedes learning in importance for her.

Kind of shot himself in the foot if he was looking to make that a "formative" assessment.

If it was "summative" then he needs to rethink how he's looking at grading, since he made quite contradictory statements to me about what it is he's "really looking at" in evaluating students. On the one hand it "isn't" about particular phrasing, buzzwords, etc. It's about the student's underlying understanding of the question, etc. On the OTHER, apparently, it IS about stating things in particular ways. Since he repeatedly has stated both verbally and in writing that my child KNOWS the material well, and that the problems were about her not stating her answers "directly enough" or with enough "specificity," or "clearly labeling" examples/evidence referentially with respect to the questions. In other words, this is MOSTLY stylistic. But when I pointed out that I'm not sure that she CAN learn to do what he's looking for on future assessments since she doesn't know what's in his head beforehand... well, he's not looking for any particular buzzwords, just understanding of the underlying ideas... and strong, clear statements...

(Yes, I know. He didn't seem to understand a lot of things that were wrong with this line of reasoning... and the fact is that he's attempting to parse 'style' points with someone whose style is VASTLY different than his own, and also didn't understand the terms summative and formative. AUGH.)

If this is how historians all write-- using subjective/ambiguous statements/evidence with emphatic value judgments attached, I mean-- then I think that DD is probably doomed in this class. I also begin to see very clearly why physical scientists regard this kind of "scholarly activity" with such ill-concealed disdain. :sigh: He apparently objects to my daughter's tendency to choose evidence, offer plausible ("it may be" not "it is so") explanations and let the reader make value judgments. I have to wonder if part of the problem isn't that her writing choices are a bit sophisticated for what he is actually LOOKING for. He seems to want very choppy sentences that make SVO statements and TELL the reader WHAT TO THINK... (yes, he did say that).

Anyway, we left it that he'll at least review what she turned in this morning (I had her pull out her exam and REWORK the questions without looking at the graded version), and she gave him that along with a scanned copy of her handwritten notes re: the essay questions. He'll set up a phone conference with her once he's had a chance to go through that material. He is also (still) going to discuss this with the Ap Lit Barracuda to find out how it is that she can insist on "highly demanding standards" year after year without shutting my kid down-- which he SORELY needs to learn.

This kind of thing is just crazy-making, frankly.

A number of teachers use the "explaine it like I know nothing rule" you see this in MS and HS. They use this to force most students to do a better job of discussing or explaining a topic. Most teachers teach to the 80% rule and have devloped technigues that they belive should work for all. A rare teacher understands that each student should be treated fairly, but not equally. It sounds like you have one that misses this. Also its hard to challange the king in there castle. I belive its time to move up the ladder on this issue.

Honestly, I'm left with the disgusted impression that this is ALL just a load of subjective hogwash.

What he seems to REALLY misunderstand is that while HE has 250 students, they only have ONE of him.

So when he flubs something or makes an offhand, inaccurate/misleading remark, it sticks with at least a few of them.

Good historians do NOT write this way. History resembles the hard sciences in some important ways, in that you have to gather data and provide evidence to support your conclusions. Many writers follow this process. Like the sciences, people can distort the facts or cherry-pick among them to make fraudulent points.

Is the teacher a historian or an educator?

Again, the stuff I've read here sounds like arbitrary edumacator babble. I think you need to write to this guy's boss. He CANNOT hold different students to different standards while handing out the same grades in the same class.

I remember in schoolthat I was regularly instructed to answer as if I werertalking to someone who knew nothing about the material *while* other students were being told to explain it to the teacher, or as if to another student. Often all three suggestions were given to various students, butnI always got the ignorante version.

I was also in a corespondence-u class were I had two exams, eich worth 40% of my grade, the first was marked unfairly, in my opinion, surprisingly close to your daughter's 67% I was given many of teh same comments (it's a tad eerie, really).

I recieved 100% on the remainder of the course, I'm assuming because there was simply no possible way to mark me down. And got told by the programme head I should drop that half of my major. I learned very, very, very little about teh subject (thought I've been back over it for my own purposes)

NOT ALL HISTORY ia written like that... It was teh sci major I was asked to drop. Hist kinda likes me. They've even pointed students at me when they feel someone needs to explain "Academic rigour" to them kindly

This is maybe for teh bad homework thread, but I was once marked wrong on a chemistry question because, despite having correctly answered "hydrogen," I had used an archaic sentance structure (yes, I was bored) to fulfill the "answer in full sentances" requirement. If all science was written like that....



Shoot the teacher... Shoot the teacher... Shoot the teacher < reader must supply own orchestral accompanyment> dun dun dun-nuh.

I don't remember in school ever having a problem thinking of the person grading the test as being completely ignorant on the subject.

Snap.

... and see, now I feel compelled to apologize on behalf of chemistry.

I actually have a hypothesis.

Mr. Teacher has sent me at least two dozen written messages over the years-- and not ONE of them was devoid of spelling/grammar/usage errors, often multiple errors. He has a marked preference for ORAL communication over written.

DD has two high school friends, both brothers, that she has known for years and years. They love this guy. They think he's awesome. He loves them, too. Guess who they dread/avoid/fear? Riiiiiiight-- Ms. English Barracuda. The one that LOVES my DD's thinking and writing.

DD says that brothers tend to have fairly "simplistic" writing/written analysis skills, in her opinion. This would explain why they aren't too fond of the Barracuda, for sure.


My hypothesis is that this particular teacher might have a disorder of written expression of some sort. That would explain his preference for VERY particular syntax and his aversion to my DD's more nuanced (and frankly slightly more sophisticated grammar, etc) writing style. I think maybe it's a pain in the neck for him to follow it.

I shared this particular hypothesis with my DD. Can't hurt, given her nature-- after all, this should help her in terms of being COMPLIANT with what the guy wants, and it should keep her from being too terribly resentful over it in the bargain.

So sorry your dd is suffering over this. I was so perfectionistic about my grades, especially as an undergraduate that I lost all appreciation for truly learning the material. I liken it to a type of achievement anorexia. The more I excelled, the more praise and positive reinforcement I got...thus, the more I pushed harder to excel, the higher my own expectations, the more I excelled...

I think it was incredibly difficult for me to understand that sometimes teachers just don't "get you" - and may not like you or appreciate your perspective. And they will be impossible to please. I couldn't help but feel their disapproval was a judgement on me as a person, not numbers or words on a page. And I didn't have that delightful "screw you" teenage thing ( which is really an amazingly useful shield).

Hopefully this teacher grows a heart.

Thank you Evemomma-- achievement anorexia is the absolute BEST ever description for this. Just like anorexia, it isn't about the 'success' gained with the behavior, it's about the locus of control gained during it. The achievement is just a temporary relief from 'failure.'

This teacher basically just told my recovering anorexic to skip dessert because she's packing on a few pounds. I think that ANY good parent would blow a gasket at that.

We had worked SO hard toward that goal of "sometimes other people just don't 'get' you, it's not personal, keep your head down and just do your work, don't worry about it... be flexible... etc." This is a big part of the reason why she's in a public school and NOT homeschooled-- she is so personality sensitive, and because of her quirk of being about 80% Socratic in her learning style, it makes a HUGE difference to her learning as often as not.

I do think that the teacher is far from a heartless jerk. He just really DOES NOT KNOW my child.

While I most often have strong one sided input on most threads, I find myself torn on this one. I'm totally sympathetic of the problem you’re having with this teacher and it burns me up to see such grading habits. I also understand the perfectionism problem since my eldest DS went through the same thing, at the same time it’s important to realize that this teacher won’t be the last to use such practices and in fact it might get worse in college where professors are left completely to their own grading practices and to run their classroom completely as they see fit.

In a perfect world I’d wish all teachers to understand the challenges your child faces and adjust accordingly, however, this isn’t the perfect world. So my best advice is to, as much as possible, use this class as a tool to help your daughter understand and deal with such practices as she’s certain to see other teachers totally insensitive to her perfectionism trigger and teachers with much less knowledge of her (or even care to have much knowledge of her) when she reaches college. I guess I have to ask here, which are you more likely to have a strong influence and success in training / teaching, your daughter, or every teacher she’ll have now and in the future?

Please forgive me if I touch a nerve, it’s not my intention to ruffle feathers, again, I totally sympathize, I just don’t see the mass majority of your efforts in this to be a long term solution, yet, flipping on that, it sounds like this teacher and that teacher’s future students may benefit greatly from your input on the matter.

LOL-- yes, I'm (ahem) pretty familiar with how college faculty see things. On the other hand, most of them are, in my experience, quite concerned with VALID assessment practices. Most institutions have clear guidelines for faculty to follow-- and they do; the "fiefdom" model in higher ed is a little bit out of date at this point, and while there are certainly still a few dinosaurs out there, most of them operate with a more open pedagogical view now, particularly younger faculty. We really are working on our kid as well, and I agree-- I've been somewhat torn over this as well. It's one of the things that I loathe about this model, however-- that teachers pretty much NEVER see the students face to face, and cannot therefore use that kind of micro-feedback to make those tiny modifications that good educators ALWAYS do automatically in order to make learning more effective for students. It's a dance, and good educators all know it.

On my DD's side, she is still learning to be assertive enough to do self- advocacy. It's a work in progress. She is also learning (as I noted up-thread) to tolerate really non-optimal conditions in a learning environment, so we definitely are taking the same POV on this score. DD has to make adjustments-- when she CAN make them, that is. This is a grey area there. I'm not sure that: a) the teacher has the right to demand what he seems to be asking for, and b) that DD is flexible enough to deliver it (because frankly, I'm not-- and I've got a lot more experience writing for different audiences than either one of them).

_____________________________________________________________________


I've also had the idea that if plan A (that is, he's going to 'work' with my daughter to 'teach' her how to modify her writing style to accommodate his vision of things) falls through or proves unsuccessful...

{and just as a side note here, my DH and I have already got some concerns that he's tweaking her "voice" as a writer, and she's got a very good one that has been painstakingly developed under years of tutelage by Ms. Barracuda... we don't take that for granted, and we don't take tweaking that 'voice' lightly.}


well, then if Plan A falls through or is unsuccessful, then my suggestion is going to be that the two of them work through essay questions ORALLY. She knows the material, and can speak fairly eloquently about the issues involved. It's not right that she be failing that portion of things because she can't adopt a different voice as a writer. Not when her writing style has nothing truly 'wrong' with it for a lot of her other teachers.

I've always had a problem with schools wanting to teach my children any character traits, that's my job as a parent. The teacher teaches educational material, I'll do the raising of my kids, form their character, and help them set their goals, their values, and how important any aspect of their life is...thank you very much! Not directed at you the readers here of course, just thinking out loud directed at educators.

Exactly. That whiff of things REALLY got my hackles up in a hurry.

But children are little balls of clay that have to be shaped into modernity so that they don't end up back on the farms!

Many of the richest people around where I live ARE farmers! Which reminds me of the farmer who walked into a sales office with knee high boots, overalls, and grain cap. The first desk didn't even say, "Can I help you sir?"....he proceeded on to the next booth, where he purchased two twin engine planes. I think the sales people at the first booth learned a lesson that day (laffin)

This was my perspective, too.

In their defense, teachers see children every day whose parents are, literally and/or figuratively, falling down on the job. A genuinely concerned teacher will naturally fall into the habit of overstepping his bounds, for purely altruistic reasons.

And the path that's paved with good intentions leads to... where?

This is where it's appropriate to bring him up short. "Hey. I'm her mom. I'm on the job. I've got this. You just worry about teaching her government."

Unfortunately, I did not have the "neutral" grading experience in college or graduate school. Maybe in my very large survey classes...but I also was in a lot of more intimate classes where there is a lot of interaction with teacher or assistant profs. Even in a HUGE philosophy class on death and dying (maybe 300 students?), I recall the papers were graded by a set of teaching assistants. It was luck of the draw if you might get a C or an A depending on the TA. But I also took a series of subjective classes (was a dual fine arts and pyschololgy major). I once had a friend scoff at my college GPA (behind my back)because of my art classes...but I assure you, at least with an objective subject you can STUDY to increase your odds of demonstrating competency. If you just happen to stink at sculptural bronze casting or oxyacetaline welding - well, you're pretty much hosed.

Anyway,the best thing that ever happend to cure me of my acheivement anorexia was having my first prof in graduate school announce that she refused to give A's in her class, because, as first year graduate students, there was no way that we would be able to be proficient enough at clinical assessments to deserve one. It was the best relief one could ask for as a perfectionist. And then I didn't have to worry about maintaining an expectation of perfection for myself any longer...relief!

I don't think that's unusual for a perfectionist. The first time they don't get an A on something they break down and cry, often not out of grief but out of relief, they no longer have to worry about being perfect.

Oh, good heavens. I missed the Barracuda's phone call while I was running a twenty minute errand first thing... AUGH!!

Now I have to try to persuade her to call me again.




Hmmm, well, I think that depends on the perfectionist in question. DD sometimes takes it pretty well if she doesn't get 100%. It depends ENTIRELY on whether or not she interprets the situation as one in which her "best" should legitimately guarantee her 100% or not. In any situation in which she feels that is so, this becomes problematic. In this instance, her best is VERY definitely "100%" in any estimate, and considerably less than her best should be... but now she's been placed into a scenario where because of the teacher's desire (which was altruistic, but misplaced) to teach her a larger lesson, she now MUST earn 100% to achieve the 'reasonable' outcome. Bottom line, the teacher opted to use a high-value, summative assessment in a formative manner, but he was too heavy-handed and missed the mark.

The reason we're not having ANY problems like this with AP Lit is that any one writing assignment is only 1% of the course grade. Those are formative assessments, and therefore more tailored/subjective grading is fine there. Those are intended to 'shape' the student, and they are pretty relentless in terms of demand. This has been an IDEAL course for my DD, and probably one of the single healthiest experiences of her school career with this educational entity.

That's a much, much better situation for a perfectionist, as it forces them to actually work toward a goal OTHER than perfection, and to regard the learning process-- not the results-- as important.

Similarly, in college coursework, while it is true that grading may be subjective... subjective grading TENDS to be on formative low-value or high-frequency student work. Homework, weekly work, etc. There is a chance for the student to learn what sort of responses are expected.

I would NEVER have graded a midterm exam this harshly without the six to seven in-class quizzes, five weekly problem sets, and four lab reports leading up to it, which should give students LOADS of feedback about all of the little things that I looked for on extended answers (showing your work, explaining thought process logically, focusing on "why" not just "how," etc.). I also didn't grade EXAM answers with the same sort of rigor that I did outside-of-class writing in terms of usage/conventions or clarity/flow. Basically, exam answers are about that overall "does the student have a great, good, mediocre, or poor grasp on the principles behind this question?" I certainly DID demand good written English on lab reports and term papers. But to do so with exams and quizzes was unfair to students who struggled with those things, and frankly, it wasn't an English course. (It was chemistry.) Communication on those things simply had to be good enough to let me see the student's understanding (or lack thereof). In other words, if I could SEE that the student had sophisticatd and thorough understanding of the concept... I might dock 10-20% for not explaining it well... but I wasn't going to punish form over substance with a student who had mastery.

So while I quite thoroughly understand where this teacher is coming from, and to some extent I support those pedagogical preferences myself, I think that this model doesn't support that pedagogy very well-- and he's being grossly internally inconsistent and doesn't even see it, and he doesn't 'know' the students well enough to be doing what he's doing. AND he's running smack into some major roadblocks created by my daughter's asynchronous maturity and her GT perfectionism.

:SIGH: Hopefully I can talk to Ms. Barracuda about our concerns over tweaking DD's hard-won voice as a writer for the purpose of one idiosyncratic teacher. That part is a maturity thing-- I'm just not sure that DD is ready to alter her writing style THAT radically to suit different teachers and not have it impact her natural core voice as a writer.

When I realized that I could never get a 4.0 in college, I gave up and retreated to my mausoleum.

After all, I knew that my future was over...

If only took me about 6 years to get over that.

Jon, you and my DD tend to regard such things in a similar light, quite honestly.

A single bad experience on a geometry midterm, coupled with an extracurricular "fail" the same week was what sent our DD on the road to hell the first time.

Frankly, those two failures were the result of poor preparation and lack of understanding. I didn't argue about either one of them, and both were fairly objective evaluations, IMO-- even in retrospect and knowing how that wound up.

I'm really not happy if that kind of spiral gets going as a result of fairly idiosyncratic or subjective input, however-- unless it is clear that it IS idiosyncratic/subjective. (Artistic merit, for example.)

Eventually I started destroying my academic life on purpose.

In hindsight, this was not the most productive or beneficial use of my time.

All or nothing thinking is certainly a mark of perfectionism. Do it right or don't do it at all. As is extreme procrastination. I seem to suffer from a prolonged procrastination phase of this disease since grad school. Which is exactly why I have come to peak back to these boards instead of learning the new billing software program that I must use within the week. Sigh.

I procrastinate all the time.

Although at any time a homeless person could wander in off the street asking for representation and I would have to meet with them.

It just occurred to me that I'm one of the few people to whom homeless people are a source of revenue. I also like when people call directly from the mental hospital. And no, that's not sarcasm.

Gotta say, I took one oral geography exam in grade nine, and it raised my marks in all subjects about 20%... My guidance councellor was the senior geo teacher, and gave the exam. He sent a memo to all my teachers ever after about my overthinking.

Eek, naked baby on way down stairs... Bye

Same thing here evemomma. So is genetic that DS10 puts off what he does not want to do, or learned behavior, asks the Dad that is not doing his work and is being distracted from what he does not want to do. I can still do my work Saturday, sigh.

Update.

Mr. Teacher spoke to my daughter this morning.
Yes, that choice of words was deliberate. It certainly wasn't that "they talked." A twenty minute phone call, and she said about four complete sentences (and she's a virtual Chatty Cathy doll... LOL).

I doubt that it is going to do much good, and so does she-- in her opinion (uncoached) he was contradictory and this seemed (to her) to be about writing style, but also about 'right' answers, even though he said that it wasn't. I could watch the expressions on her face-- she was so distressed and confused. She was frantically taking down everything he said to her, but it is clear that much of the time, her thoughts were "what the HELL DOES THAT EVEN MEAN??"

He didn't really use any active listening skills with her, so he still has no real concept of WHY she is having trouble writing the way he wants her to. This even after he supposedly discussed strategies and motivation with Ms. Barracuda (who I also spoke with yesterday morning, so I know approximately what she was going to say to him, and it involved using a more give-and-take communication model, I'd put money one it).

DD is so very discouraged. She doesn't want to change her entire writing style to suit one teacher, and particularly since this particular teacher doesn't write all that well himself, but is insisting that he is training her to some "college standard" that he thinks she is not yet meeting.

I'm just as perplexed as she is about what he actually wants from her, because it doesn't make any kind of rational sense that I can see. I'm tempted to let my DH write an essay for him (with DD's input on content) to see if ANY of the people in our house can hit his target.

Between the two of us, it's clear that we have a LOT more collegiate writing experience to draw from. He's just plain wrong.



Oh-- and before I even talked to him the first time, I had DD rewrite all four essay questions to her most rigorous teacher's standards. Remember, though, that these are theoretically short answer questions at the END of an in-class exam. They aren't formal essays.

He was going to read them and discuss THOSE with her, I had thought. Apparently not. He went through his original comments on the exam with her. Like she's too stupid to have READ what he wrote to her or something.

SO frustrating. She tried to tell him "yes, I know-- I read that. You wrote that on my exam," but he kept cutting her off to "tell" her more (of what he'd already said to her, evidently).

This is why teachers should stick to teaching in their expert subject areas and not worry quite so much about "character" development, because NOW he's convinced that my daughter needs a lesson about conformity. (My suspicions, anyway).

Well, she doesn't. She's TRYING to conform. But you're not telling her what the RULES of this particular form are.

It's like he wants a sonnet, but keeps saying "the meter is irregular here," and "you need to watch that your rhyme scheme isn't slipping after the first two lines," and "this isn't long enough."

Those aren't good instructions for a sonnet if the student hasn't ever SEEN one or been given the basic guidelines of the form. KWIM?

If anything, I'm more exasperated than I was before.

We have dealt with teachers like this a couple of times during my kid's high school years. Honestly... my opinion is that there is NO winning this battle during a given school year. Administration typically backs them even when they are awful/inconsisent/even vindictive. Does your kid need to take a whole year from him, or just one semester? Is there another section that she could transfer to at the semester break (that was our final solution last year for D2 in an awful, low-level English class with a teacher who was SURE she was insisting on college prep work when in fact they were actually wading thru molasses.) Making that change was one of the best things we have ever done for her even if it did juggle her schedule in some other less than ideal ways.

If I were you I would talk to the principal, and possibly write a letter if you have examples of the teacher's behavior that are out of line. For example, subjective grading that he admits he only applies to your child would be something. And requiring them to write to a level for someone who knows NOTHING about the topic would be another.

We wrote a letter (after meeting with no results) about a math teacher that D1 had problems with; it did not resolve most of the issues she had that year, BUT they let the teacher (who had been with the school 20 years, private, non-union) go about a year later. Thankfully, as I had no intention of letting D2 sit in his classroom, he was gone by the time she got there. Administrators always say you are the only parent complaining, it is your kid's problem, etc. But sometimes if you do have a valid complaint, they remember... even if they won't admit it at the time. And I think they just lie (honestly) about whether others have complained. So you can possibly make things better for someone else in the future.

That English teacher D2 had trouble with... is still there, but the teacher she transferred to let D2 know this year that they are looking at tracking (creating honors sections) for English next year (none now, a big snooze for GT kids). Again, too late for us, but did something good for those behind us.

See, I guess I still don't see this as a huge ideological battle of some kind.

We also don't really have another option without my DD needing to dump the honors/AP version of the course-- and it's a graduation requirement.

I did do that last year with the absolute HARRIDAN of a biology teacher, and I absolutely do NOT regret that. I was also far from the only angry parent with that teacher. On the other hand, I know that I burned a lot of years of administrator capital with that move when I finally went nuclear over it (in December, after putting up with it for three months).

This teacher is someone who gets along well with some bright students, and isn't particularly difficult to work with in general. He has a reputation as a good teacher, in other words.

Thus far, my only evidence for unprofessional conduct is in some of his verbal statements to me (re: "work ethic" and "form over substance"), and in his behavior in showing my child's work to another of her current teachers without my (and her) express permission. His commentary being so contradictory is probably a bit of a grey area. All of those things could (if only just) be communication problems or personality issues. He is a military, 'all-business' kind of guy (probably staunchly conservative, given some of his in-class asides), and my DD has the stereotypical PG kid's vision of the world as a theater of the absurd and she's both a socialist, a hard-core pacifist, and a Quaker by nature. Not a good combo, to the say the least. There may be subtle ideological differences which are interfering, but as far as I can tell, he's been reasonably non-judgmental there.


I do support his ideas of making sure that students are held to high standards, etc. I like him personally.

The problem is that his communication and teaching style is very very different from my DD's needs as a student, and it is borderline toxic in light of the current situation. He "wants to see how she thinks," but is at the same time telling her that she's WRONG to tell him what she actually thinks. She, being a 13yo, naturally has kind of melted under this onslaught and is now wrestling with the possibility that: a) her writing isn't "college-ready" (Baloney, by the way), and/or that b) the way she thinks is "wrong" and she needs to "fix" it.

I suspect, in fact, that mostly this is a communication issue. It just doesn't feel as though he thinks it's his responsibility to DO anything about it.

The other thing that occurred to me this morning after his phone call to DD is that he is making some obvious mistakes on the GT front. He is making assumptions about what she is having difficulty with-- not FINDING OUT. All of my many years of teaching... did NOTHING to teach me to anticpate how a non-NT child/student will interact with curriculum or instructions.

I'm a good educator. I can anticipate problems for most learners with curriculum in the sciences and mathematics. But not with non-NT students. Never, ever, EVER presume to know what the problem is. It's usually NOT what I would have predicted, sometimes astonishingly/laughingly so.

So the salient thing is that depending upon your "instincts" and "experience" to know where a student is having a problem... is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG when it comes to a non-NT student. This includes PG students, whose asynchrony makes them profoundly different from bright, NT students in terms of their interaction with curriculum. Active listening isn't a "choice" in those situations-- it's essential if you plan on being any kind of assistance to those students, and if you see that as an obligation as a teacher (most do), then you can't skip it because it isn't your 'style' to do it.

The other thing that I keep wondering about all of this is... if it were the OPPOSITE problem (that is, a student turned in written answers which WAY outstripped his/her other class work), the teacher would have called the student because of the red flags it would raise.

Kind of thinking that I have an obligation to pursue both of these aspects of this. I somehow doubt that he's going to consider either thing much of an opportunity for professional development.

Have you brought this idea to his attention, in just the way you wrote it here? Maybe he doesn't realize what he's doing.

And why exactly isn't that a good combo?

And what do you mean by Quaker?

Well, that it's not a good combo with a libertarian, black-and-white, literalist army-guy, I meant.

Quaker = SoF Quaker-- the liberal variety. (Her, not us.)

Well, JonLaw... a socialist, hard core pacifist and "Quaker by nature" (assume this means similar to the Society of Friends (Quaker religion) that tends toward pacifism is probably NOT going to mix very well with someone who is politically very conservative (as Howler says this teacher is).

There may not be much for her to do in this situation except keep her head down and shoot for a B, really. Given this is two years in a row, I am curious whether you have any other school options... I say this as a parent who now knows that we stuck it out too long in an independent private school that just was not a good fit for my PG daughter's needs. Wish we had switched a few years ago to a different private in our region.

That's a really good point, actually. When I broached this subject with him, he defended the practice under the guise of "teaching good college skills" and "shaping her thinking the way a HISTORIAN does it..."

I'm not sure that I'm really buying either explanation.

I think that the ideology piece may be more important than I've given it credit for, actually. He's coming at things from a "It's simple! X, Y, and Z," standpoint (which is complemented by his own ideology which supports that). She, on the other hand, is coming at this from a more kind of thoughtful (?) perspective which is more like, "While it may at first appear simple, it soon becomes apparent that if X, then A, which often means that Y and Z are only possible together or not at all, in which case B instead, not that there's anything wrong with that." It's more narrative than procedural, if that makes sense.

HER ideology supports that kind of approach, fundamentally. Her beliefs personally tend to lead her to be VERY mulish about the kind of oversimplification he's looking for in value judgments. She really does interpret this as him punishing how she thinks on some level.

Our current strategy is that DD is going to do the next couple of lessons, and then she's going to take off a few weeks from the class to avoid having any MORE salt poured in her wounds...

while she studies American Government by following the national election, and writing an NaNoWriMo novel that she's been cooking up plot for the past few weeks-- a political thriller. I told her that was fine with me as long as she does some research to support the plot with authentic procedural details.

(I think she's thinking about using either cloture, or maybe using the VP's voting powers somehow. She wants to venture off the beaten track a bit. Everyone writes about the executive powers. )

She's also going to apply to be a page at our state legislature by contacting our local state rep (who knows us).

Could you possibly convince her that being successful, in this particular situation, might not be about getting an A or being "perfect" but about staying true to herself and keeping her own voice in the face of unrealistic criticism by an authority figure? Sort of reframe the situation for her? From what you've written, it seems that there is very little value in "achieving" what he is looking for so why even try? What is the benefit to her other than the grade? It actually sounds like achieving this goal would actually be a loss.

I realize it undermines his authority as a teacher, but I sort of think he deserves it. In a situation like this, I would argue that keeping your own voice and perspective is actually much more valuable than the A. The A is arbitrary and unimportant in the larger scheme of things. Try to convince her that being "perfect" in this situation means taking a B, but knowing that she stayed "perfectly" true to who she is and what she knows to be true.

Because at this point, it sounds like there is very little likelihood of significantly changing his perspective, so perhaps you can focus on helping her survive the situation with her nerves and psyche intact.

Thank you so much to everyone for helping me to think this through. I still find the situation very perplexing, but at least I feel that I have some options to consider at this point.

a) My DH thinks that he can help DD to "edit" her responses to be in line with what Mr. Fantastic is seeking-- his suggestion, therefore, is to have DD run EVERY bit of additional writing for the class through him. Pro: may work, since DH has a much more 'flat/technical' style than DD does innately, and he works in an engineering environment with similar communication barriers. :ahem: Also doesn't force DD to alter her voice as a writer, or her principles as a person. Con: sends the message to my DD that she isn't 'capable' of earning her own grade in the class, and she objects based on ethics, feeling that this MIGHT violate the honor code.

b) Let her take the B that she's likely to earn without any additional intervention. Pro: no more angst necessary, no more potential ruffling of teacher feathers. Con: it's wrong. Oh, and potentially damages DD's class rank, which is one thing if it's deserved (say, if she were 'choosing' not to work very hard at physics or something and earned a B rather than an A), but quite another when it's a personality conflict at work. I hadn't mentally framed this as an integrity issue for DD, though-- and that has been a helpful perspective for me. Recall that DD's sole goal for now, academically, involves class rank. It's about the only 'realistic' and tangible goal that she has in this particular setting. She wants number one, and a B in this class jeopardizes that larger goal.

c) drop the "honors" course in favor of another teacher, or investigate the possibility of converting to the AP course (it's almost nine weeks in, though... ay yi yi... she'd have to double time it to make up the time that she's missed) Pro: AP comes with greater depth/difficulty, and also with a better GPA weighting. Con: OMG, the sheer VOLUME to make up, though... As for dropping to the non-honors course, that comes with a GPA weight penalty. Obvious 'con' there.

d) take a break, attempt further remediation involving people higher up the food chain. I've not ruled this out, but I fear burning bridges at this point. I'm probably GOING to call the counselor next week either way-- even if only to figure out what the other options are under c). Pro: better data, possibly better communication with teacher, Con: irritating the teacher further at both of us may make him even MORE intractible. It might even get him "in trouble" and that's really not my goal here, since as noted, he seems to be an EXCELLENT teacher for at least some students, and probably for the students who are more typical in this model.

e) Have DD take a break and hope for a better future after she's calmed down some (and maybe, quite honestly, after the TEACHER has calmed down some). Pro: hey, less emotional thinking is always better for communication. Con: the fundamental problems remain unchanged in the situation on all sides.

f) Have DD attempt to earn perfect scores in the class, keep her head down, and try to write the way he wants. Our advice to her thus far has been:
Don't use ANYTHING that you've learned elsewhere in ANY of your writing unless you're specifically directed to it. Stick with the textbook definitions and explanations. Verbatim where possible.
Write simply-- and aim at a kinda slow middle-schooler.
Write 'persuasively' as if you were debating.

Pro: lowest activation energy, and seems least confrontational to teacher (who is a real nut about authority/respect issues), also teaches DD how to deal efectively with someone like this-- if it works, that is. Con: means allowing DD to give perfectionism full reign, at least in this class. May serve as an unwelcome distraction to her when she needs to focus on AP Lit and Physics since those are academically appropriate. Compromises her principles, since she tends to regard this kind of over-simplified, cherry-picked writing as inherently biased and disingenuous if you're doing it ON PURPOSE and pretending that it represents "truth." (Debate or formal legal defense is different because everyone KNOWS that it is what is taking place.) That said, I think that maybe she CAN write the way he wants. Probably, anyway-- it will just feel horribly "icky" to her.

Much to consider.

I'm an extremely conservative pacifist, so the two are certainly not exclusive.

But you also are not active duty military, I'm guessing.

No, but I did get into a nice dispute at church several months ago.

Generally, I try to keep my mouth shut because there is somewhere near a 0% chance that anyone in my vicinity will agree with my positions. Normally it just confuses them.

Which again makes you very much like my DD, generally speaking-- if ironically so, in this instance. We present as "probably conservative" at a casual glance; we home-educate, we are very strict about 'age-appropriate' dress, conduct, and behavior, and we encourage respect for rules and authority figures. We also love politics and love to debate and think about complexity.
She comes as a COMPLETE shock to most of her friends; but only if they ever get her to open up about her actual socio-economic or policy opinions. Mostly she just smiles and makes non-committal statements while they espouse THEIR opinions to her, and recalls them later with no small amount of amusement while they continue to assume that she agrees with them.

She definitely feels a bit threatened in a school setting like this one, because it leans decidedly conservative (both social and economic) and free-market Libertarian. Her views on religion, economics, sociology, and politics are all at odds with 99% of her classmates, at least a fourth of the relevent curriculum, and even with many teachers.

On the one hand, we usually feel that this is a good thing-- because it lends her better listening skills, better PEOPLE skills in navigating that kind of environment, and more compassion for those who hold minority perspectives. She also doesn't hold opinions that she doesn't have internal reasons for, and NEVER takes a stand firmly without thinking it through analytically. On the other, it's isolating as an adolescent to feel that you're a freak or that your views lend you a sort of martyrdom.

It's generally had the opposite effect on me, because I'm not trying to navigate the environment as much as I am trying to force to environment to match my internal feelings on how things must be.

I tend to not have compassion in conversation for those who hold incorrect perspectives, because, after all, error has no rights.

So, I keep my mouth shut as opposed to engaging because that way I stay calm don't project anger outward.

It's a problem of generating a priori moral absolutes and then using rigid mathematical calculation to determine the outcome with no respect for either the cultural or human element.

Mouth shut = harmony!

Happiness!

Butterflies!

Just goes to show that the same behavior can have vastly different underpinnings in two different PG persons, doesn't it?? I find that absolutely amazing to think about, personally. It's a great example of what I was referring to above, though, with a need for active listening in order to genuinely gain an understanding of causation with anyone who isn't NT.

-----------------------------------------

I think that I've covered all of the major considerations in my lengthy point-by-point pro/con analysis above. Time to confer with my DD and have her identify most/least-worst risks and most/least-best outcomes. Printing that for my DD and DH. Family conference time! (This will very definitely NOT involve happiness or butterflies. :sigh: Three type A people all with fine brains and their own opinions on everything. Watch the fur fly! Wheeee.)



Then at least I'll know what to discuss with the counselor/principal on Monday.

Given the list of options, for me, it's a no-brainer: B.

Look at all the other options closely, and notice the amount of toxicity they contain (except E, and I'm not clear on how it fundamentally differs from B). All in the service of earning one more grade point? It's silly.

Valedictorian is an award given to the student who most successfully exhibits the traits of gifted perfectionism, and all the baggage that entails. Depending on the size and/or quality of the school, making the top spot is a lot like an arms race.

Alternatively, you could bring a book from a real historian, slam it on the teacher's desk, and say, "This is how REAL historians do it." Because her teacher's preferred method of dealing with absolutes is absolutely incorrect when it comes to history. He should have gone into chemistry or mathematics instead.

I'm not saying it would be productive, but it would be satisfying. It would also communicate to your DD that you stand with her. Some of those other options (like A) have a potential communicate the opposite.

I made valedictorian by 0.14% because I treated it as a form of strategic warfare.

In hindsight, it's clear that I shouldn't have treated my peers as existential threats to be eliminated or neutralized.