Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "best" is NOT a good goal-- explaining

Okay-- so we're having trouble with a teacher. The same teacher that was involved (integrally, one might say) in the holy-cow-nuclear-scale meltdown of perfectionism and anxiety of two years ago (which is fully documented here, for those that care)--

Him: I believe in {DD}-- she's SOooooooo capable! I just want her to meet (very high) standards. My goal is to instill a better work ethic in her, since I see that as something missing in a lot of high-potential kids. My teaching philosophy is about having kids meet very high standards in order to grow.

Me: Yes, I understand. My goal, also, is to have a child whose work ethic can match her potential. We're working on it. The problem is that if you trigger her perfectionism, there is no reasoning with her. By making it so that she needs 98% in the rest of the semester, you've just created a perfect storm for her in which she feels that earning 100% is far more crucial than learning anything.

For my Davidson cronies only--> {But-- the material itself, while INTERESTING to DD, (it's American Government) just isn't that difficult for her, fundamentally. The class is neither paced nor leveled "properly" for her.}


The problem is that, judging from your comments (which are appreciated, by the way); you see this assessment as formative. The problem is that from the way the system is set up, it's summative. Those two things are not compatible with a child like my daughter. This just feels punitive, and now rather than working TOWARD something, she's going to be working to AVOID something instead.


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The real problem here is that this teacher simply does NOT understand that we don't WANT our DD approaching material beneath her level with this "banzai" kind of "giving it her ALLLLLLL" approach. That's what gets us into a position of "my best = 100%, ergo, if I don't get 100%, I have failed."



Frankly, the teacher is NOT going to want to hear that this class doesn't merit my daughter's "best" effort, but that's the bottom line.

This is a class where we WANT her to be doing "good enough" work, not "my very best." The "work ethic" class is AP PHYSICS this year, tyvm. That's the one that meets the demands of her proximal zone, and will allow her to actually learn something on that front.

What do I say instead?? (My bunker position thus far was to give him the lowdown on the perfectionism issues, the degree to which this is a problem, and point out that there is more than one way to get my daughter's "best" out of her-- and he agreed to discuss the problem with the "Barracuda" who has been getting my daughter to work "harder/better/more" for about six years now-- without traumatizing her or triggering horrifying levels of perfectionism in the process.)



HELP!

Oh, and so much for not having a year where I get to be "that parent."

At least I addressed that openly and laughed about it with him. :sigh:

I think I might approach it as a self-determination goal: "My hope for this class is that Debbie will learn to set appropriate standards for herself, and to develop healthy ways to meet her own standards and goals." IIRC, your dd is in high school (correct me if I'm wrong?)-- by this age, especially with the bright kids, they're usually all about getting ready for college. Self-determination should be Goal One in that case.

As for being "that parent", I actually had a T-shirt that said "Attila the Mom" at one point. Most of the teachers thought it was funny.

I don't know. But I *do* want to thank you for sharing your experiences with your daughter here. While she is way more gifted than I was or than my dd is, I totally identify (on a smaller scale) and really believe that if I had a parent advocating for me the way you are it would have made a significant difference.

And this is a hard concept for my dd too. Sometimes she is paralzyed by perfectionism. Sometimes she does a half-assed job and seems totally content with it, (which for some things is OK...but sometimes I feel like, "really? that is your best work?")

But then in her conference yesterday (she skipped 6th, first teacher conference for 7th) with straight As in advanced classes, this is her self report:
3 things you are happy with so far this year:
1. I had all As at the end of the 9 weeks
2. I have done fairly well in my work
3. I have enjoyed learning the majority of the things I've learned.

3 things you think you need to improve
1. keeping all of my grades as As for throughout the next 9 weeks
2. Some of my test grades
3. Some of my grades on work

I just didn't have a good feeling about this. We have tried to emphasize that it isn't the grade that matters but that she tries her best and is learning...but this makes me think she isn't getting it!

So, not very helpful to your situation. I wish you could get through to the guy. Interested to hear other suggestions.

I've put my own call in to The Barracuda. She "gets" my kid and has known her for many years. She's pretty much the only teacher that has the real goods when it comes to PG issues. She calls DD on it when she wants more out of her, or thinks that DD is slacking... but she NEVER triggers the perfectionism in the process, and never makes DD feel 'threatened' this way.

Hopefully she can give me some advice on how to explain that "good enough" needs to be the goal here, in a way that doesn't mortally offend Mr. Do-Your-Best.

This is a problem because Mr. Teacher sunk a midterm because he is trying to cajole/provoke better (?) writing on short-answer/essay questions. So an exam that should have been ~95% (given her level of mastery/demonstration of understanding) wound up being a 67% once he was done with it.

Given how subjectively he was grading her responses (well, but you didn't actually STATE that being able to vote was a "positive" thing... ) , and given that he actually SAID to me on the phone this morning that he was viewing this more about "form than substance," I think that is more than a touch unfair.

The problem here is that he has, with one stroke on a single (flippant/bad/cavalier) day narrowed DD's margin of error for an A in the class (which everyone agrees matches her level of mastery) to a dangerously thin <2%.

Given how badly constructed the multiple choice tests are, and given how divergent DD's interpretation tends to be with material under her proximal zone (as this is, being politically incorrect momentarily)...

well, that's GOING to wake up the Perfectionism Monster that we have worked SO hard to vanquish. I just feel sick.

LOL-- I feel like Attila the Mom a lot.

I don't understand the 98% for an A fully either - is this an objective class grading matrix or something the teacher is requiring only of your dd?

I honestly have no idea how I'd handle the teacher - but whether or not the grade scoring standard is the same for all students and was put out as the standard at the beginning of the semester is going to make a difference in how I think I would approach the situation.

polarbear

I think sometimes people who haven't encountered perfectionism up close and personal don't really understand that it can be a bad thing. I think I might try using phrases like "pace herself" and "focus on learning more than performance" and "enjoy her work" and "take risks" for the things you want her to do. Good luck!

Yes, without self-determination, you kind of wander around life feeling completely lost and confused.

At least that was my college experience, since I was waiting for structure and instructions.

Why am I here, I wondered.

I never was able to answer that question.

Hey-- it creeps ME out, too. But he's the one who went there, with the notion that he's grading HER the way he is because of her "unmet potential" or some such thing.

I'd be happy to leave it alone if I felt that there WAS something to be learned from the experience.

It's just that the lesson that the teacher is trying to impart (by manipulating the grading-- as noted above-- and he admitted this to me) is NOT one that he is going to succeed in imparting to a perfectionistic PG student in this manner. He missed the target here, BIG time.

This is the issue-- the answer is YES, just one, and no, it wasn't. Because the teacher wanted to use it FORMATIVELY... which is great, and I'm all for.... but you can't also then use it SUMMATIVELY, since such grading doesn't accurately reflect the student's mastery of the material.

Her college prospects aren't what is at stake. She could easily afford to squeak by with a C in this class and not have it impact her future that much.

What's at stake is her underlying well-being. She has B's on her transcripts. Those are not where she's had problems emotionally. The problems are when she has a teacher like this that wants to "teach her a lesson" about something larger than the course material (character development, presumably), and while I support that GOAL... the method leaves a LOT to be desired. It's not really possible to teach this particular lesson (that effort is proportional to results) with material that isn't in the student's proximal zone. KWIM?

There are additional problems in this system: a) the teachers have LITTLE contact with students, so they don't get the normal 'feedback' loop to adjust for individual temperment/needs very well (which is where parents like me come in), and b) the teachers also don't write any of the (frequently crappy) assessments.

That's why using the major assessments formatively is a very dangerous thing-- they are NOT intended that way. The teacher is being a bit of a vigilante here, IMO, and he's not well-positioned to do this with my daughter in particular given their past history. She has NO rapport or trust with him.