Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Welcome to the Twilight Zone

I had a meeting today with ds6 principal, K teacher, and school psychologist. The principal requested the meeting after I requested to have ds achievement tested to get a better understanding of where his abilities lie. I thought the meeting might go like this: here are the miniscule things we can do for ds, sorry.

Instead it went like this: you're crazy, ds is not ahead. What? I was left with my mouth open a few times...literally. And, just to preface, I have really checked my ego on this, I don't NEED ds to be ahead. I'm completely realistic with his cruddy soccer skills, pouty attitude, poor speech articulation, and asundry of other 'not perfect' things about ds. I love him no matter what - he's my awesome kid no matter.

So, firstly, my dh missed most of the meeting due to a traffic jam downtown. So that stunk: 3 against 1. They started out telling me how 'special' ds was and how he was thriving in the classroom. BTW: the description of "thriving" was that he doesn't get in any trouble and is pleasant.

Reading assessment: teacher explained ds was at a level d on the a-z system. I was flabbergasted. DS started reading at 2.5. At home, we are reading chapter books such as Magic Tree House (not sure what the level is, certainly not MAJORLY advanced, but pretty sure it's above a D). I asked how they came to this level, and the teacher (without any actual assessment in hand) explained that it probably wasn't his fluency but his reading comprehension that was struggling. Crazy. Just this weekend, my dh was quizzing my ds on his current chapter book - ds comprehends it fantastically. He's not a perfect reader...but he's far beyond K level. I honestly felt like they were talking about a different kid.

Then they showed me the results of his aimsweb testing. My ds' levels were everywhere: 99% in certain subtests and 10% in another. In fact, that one was letter identification, which everyone agreed meant that ds was clearly CLEARLY not invested in the assessment process. So essentially, they gave me all this information that, not only was ds not ahead, but he was potentially barely meeting standards. WTF?

I get the school can only see what ds shows them. But, then the teacher explained that she had given ds a challenge packet to work on (optionally) and he has chosen not to do so. If he's so on-par, then why would he have a challenge packet?

I felt like an idiot. Worse, my dh who arrived late, pretty much sat silently and let me sink as I attempted to explain where ds was ahead (reading - which they thought I was crazy), math - including multiplication/division/simple algebra. I honestly felt that they thought I was delusional. I asked my dh why he didn't speak up - but he said it wouldn't mean anything if ds isn't showing him his abilities. It would've meant something to me: that I am not crazy in my assessment that ds could've passed K curriculum LAST year (or even earlier).

So, we left it that teacher would send home the challenge packets for ds to do as homework, and that he could start participating in the AR program, and that the school pyschologist would look into some sort of assessment to look at ds' math ability.

I don't think they are malicious or out to get me or ds. I get that they can only assess what ds shows them...but I still left feeling like an idiot.

What do I do? It is clear that they are not seeing ds' ability or potential. It seems that ds has completely dumbed himself down to be the "perfect K-er". I am so sad to see that he isn't in an environment where his thirst for learning is met in the slightest.

Sorry for the rant - I feel discouraged.

I don't have anything useful to say but I couldn't read and not respond without saying how sorry I am this is happening. I've handed my kids IQ test over and had the school say "We have LOTS of VERY bright children here, and we don't see it (in her)"..... I do know exactly how awful and confusing a place that is to be.

I'm sorry it is going so poorly for you this year. Last year, we were really laid back about accommodations, and the school made some decent ones on their own. This year, we are extremely frustrated that the grade skip they suggested last year has not been enough for him and they are extremely unwilling to do more, and seem to think we are crazy for thinking he needs more.

We hae backed off again, and things are actually going better. My advice would probably be to take a longer eye on this right now. He is in kindergarten, and you have a lot of years in the school. Try to build a great relationship this year, and think of it as building a strong foundation for next year and beyond.

Options look to me like:

--get outside achievement testing to demonstrate what level he's working at

--look at your district's policy on grade acceleration. (Here they have to pass end-of-grade tests for the next grade up.)

--wait it out. It sounds as though he's not unhappy where he is. Kindergarten is still a very social time, learning the ropes of school; the academic aspirations are usually not too rigorous. If he's way ahead in first, they are more likely to want to address it.

If he's not terribly unhappy, I'd probably wait it out. YMMV...

DeeDee

Evemomma-
I am so sorry! I'm sure the meeting was your worst nightmare! So crazy! So, I wonder why your ds is so different at school? Do you think he has checked out because he's so bored? Or do you think he's trying to fit in? I would be interested to look more into that. I know my ds really hates doing stuff that is so beneath him and tells his teacher so. Unfortunately, I have been working with him to do whatever the teacher asks- that she is the boss. I don't really have any good advice. I just feel awful you are going through this.
Btw, magic tree house varies in level. Yet, most are in the second grade level. The books I've seen have the AR level on the back. Keep us posted!

Yup. Me too. Same exact thing. I have no advice, just commiseration.

Until... DS8's new grade 3 teacher made an amazing comment:

"It's as if... his mind is racing a mile a minute and the class is too easy for him so retreats into a more interesting place. I'm not supposed to diagnose anything, but let's just say he does better when he's challenged."

I wanted to HUG HER.

She couldn't really offer him any enrichment (he's on a reduced workload IEP already because of his ADHD) but she did suggest that I let him work out of his sister's (grade 5) math text book.

(coolest.teacher.ever.)

I know you're thinking "if she's not willing/able to enrich him, why are you happy?" ...because it's nice that she GETS him.

She's also willing to let him skip school once a month or so to let me enrich him one-on-one. (a.w.e.s.o.m.e.) I've suggested this in the past and have been met with resistance: "He'll lose too much French exposure." (In their defense I originally suggested home schooling him one day per week, which would have been 24 hrs/month missed French exposure, which is significant at that level).

Anyway, Evemomma, this small progress has taken us until grade 3. I feel your frustration...

Yes - this exactly Sometimes you just have to wait.

Sorry you went through that... Some buried good news, AR is a pretty cool system. If your DS focuses on the super easy levels and knocks out the tests, it will continuously improve its suggested reading level range. And the math assessment, ultimately progress.

But the aimsweb, hilarious (in a bad way): if he is not invested in the testing but gets 99% on some parts, then random *blankin* chance isn't going to let that happen; so, if there are any false results it would be the low ones.

So sorry, that you had such a bad experience. We have been there too. I would suggest to wait and observe and take notes. I had to push hard to get the grade skip for our ds. Even after they administered tests and they clearly showed, that ds was at least couple years ahead in most areas. Long story short, at end we were able to skip a grade after we signed that we are doing it against school's recommendations. Outside testing was ignored by the way, never considered for anything. What helped us in every discussion was that I had taken notes on everything, including conversations with his teachers. And yes, we had three bad years before ds was able to skip. Now looking back at it, I am glad we persisted. Do not give up, just take a deep breath and come up with a different plan to continue.

I'm so sorry it went badly. As much as you know your kiddo is capable of more, if he is "not getting into trouble and is pleasant", maybe it won't be so bad to wait it out until next year.

You all are awesome...thanks so much for the encouragement. It honestly did not dawn on me that they would think ds was BEHIND. The AR system sounds promising at least as a challenge for ds. It is clear by his lack of 'altruistically' doing the challenge packets that he needs more incentive to push himself. I AM very grateful that he is not outright miserable in class. VERY grateful - but I see that he is clearly hiding his abilities. He's such a people-pleaser and just wants to do exactly what the teacher wants: if that's writing "s" and "2" over and over, he'll oblige. No matter that he spent the weekend memorizing the US state capitals and nicknames of his own fruition (thanks Scrambled States of America game!).

When my DD was in K, the school acknowledged that she was way ahead in reading (it was hard not to when she was speeding through chapter books whenever a spare moment appeared...can your DS bring some to school? Are there any in the classroom?) However, when it came to math, we were also told she was "fine" and "on grade level." The evidence for this? "Her performance is good, but she doesn't choose to work ahead in the math book like some of the kids do. She prefers to free read instead."

Gee, yet more 2 + 2 problems or reading my chapter book? Tough call.

Anyway. Do give it a bit more time. I know how you feel. I was you once. School is...glacial. Incremental. Keep chipping away. You have some leverage. Keep working on it.

I just posted something similar about my ds5 and how he is hiding his light under a bushel. The GATE director said to just let him coast along until 3rd grade as long as he is happy. (However, our district has a beautiful GATE school that my dd7 attends and the GATE director knows our family. YMMV)

You're not crazy! There were just a bunch of things working against you here.

* Gee, yet more 2 + 2 problems, or escaping my stultifying environs with a book that opens the door to any information, place, time, or situation either real or imagined...
(fixed it for ya )
Doesn't seem at all hard for me to understand. DD still does this when presented with the opportunity. Heck-- I do this, at least occasionally. LOL.




Amen to that. When you begin to feel like Alice in Wonderland, just remind yourself to quit doing everything that hookah-smoking caterpillars tell you to do. Er-- or something like that.

I realized what it felt like in that meeting: like I was part of the famous Milgram's study on peer pressure. It makes me frustrated that they never ONCE asked why it was that I suspect that ds is ahead. Not once. Even when I offered that he was comprehending his reading very well at home, they never asked anything about it.

I'm trying not to let it mess with my reality. My ds helped me this morning at the breakfast table. He proclaimed something like this:

"Some numbers are negative, so they are below zero. Zero is kind of like the Equator. The Northern Hemisphere is like the positive numbers and the Southern Hemishere is like the negative. Except, that it's spring in the Southern Hemisphere right now...so I think THEY should be the positive half since temperatures get below zero in winter."

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but isn't that somewhat out of the box and forward thinking for a 6 year old? Wouldn't a teacher be interested in a kid who can stretch, think and make associations like that?

Apparently, they are more concerned that he missed one problem of 'fill in the number on the number line'.

Where's the hoookah?

"Some numbers are negative, so they are below zero. Zero is kind of like the Equator. The Northern Hemisphere is like the positive numbers and the Southern Hemishere is like the negative. Except, that it's spring in the Southern Hemisphere right now...so I think THEY should be the positive half since temperatures get below zero in winter."

This is the exact type of thing my son does. It is his ability to find similarities, make connections between ideas and apply knowledge to new situations that make him seem gifted. At school he is a play doh and snack time loving social butterfly that hates seat work. He had an evaluation before early K and we shared the results with his teacher over the summer. I am sure after a month of school, she thinks he is a bright but normal boy. I am certain he has done nothing at school in the past month to make the teacher believe he is even moderately gifted much less exceptionally or profoundly gifted as his scores would indicate.

I don't have any advice. Just wanted to say, I am dealing with the same thing and I also think it is frustrating.

LOL DD9 did this last night: "This math homework is too easy and there's too much of it." ...so she wandered off and read for two hours.

Sorry for the bad experience. I'd say to get some achievement testing done on your own, but would they even look at it?

I'm so sorry you feel so discouraged and I completely understand your frustration. My thoughts -
DS started reading at 2.5. At home, we are reading chapter books such as Magic Tree House (not sure what the level is, certainly not MAJORLY advanced, but pretty sure it's above a D). I asked how they came to this level, and the teacher (without any actual assessment in hand) explained that it probably wasn't his fluency but his reading comprehension that was struggling.
Several thoughts on this - my dss also were assessed WAY below level in K. Older ds went from a level D to an S in kindy, which of course, only "confirmed" for the school what a great job they were doing (not that they had completely missed his skills on the first test.... GRRRRR!!). What helped for me was sitting down with the teacher and looking at his evaluation sheets. I found that they wanted very specific answers and often, my ds (the one with speech issues which eventually were diagnosed as including expressive language issues)simply didn't say enough. When *I* talked to him about the stories, it was clear he understood everything. I had to ask the teacher, not to prompt him exactly, but to say, "and???....." He didn't need hints; he just needed to know that they were looking for more. The grading system is really weird. To give you additional commiseration, he was tested in 3rd grade at an "R" level - apparently his reading got worse from K to 3rd?? Yeah, right.

My ds' levels were everywhere: 99% in certain subtests and 10% in another. In fact, that one was letter identification, which everyone agreed meant that ds was clearly CLEARLY not invested in the assessment process. So essentially, they gave me all this information that, not only was ds not ahead, but he was potentially barely meeting standards. WTF?
My ds had some of the same issues. He started reading very early and by kindy was reading the first Harry Potter. BUT - he hadn't necessarily learned letter names or sounds. He wasn't interested in the phonics aspect because he was so far beyond that. Also, he had been a spontaneous reader, not one who was taught or who learned by separating out sounds, etc. The AIMSweb things were easy for my second son, because even though he was also a fluent reader, he had asked to be taught to read in preK and had followed the traditional "this is B, B makes the bbbbb sound." So, your son may not even be "not invested," he just may be so beyond that level that he really hasn't thought about breaking down the words into their component elements.
I get the school can only see what ds shows them. But, then the teacher explained that she had given ds a challenge packet to work on (optionally) and he has chosen not to do so
Wow, I feel like we have secret twins Okay, my son had the same issue. One, he is really smart but wasn't particularly quick/good at OT in kindy. So, the challenge packet *after* he did everything else was useless. Secondly, it was still the same boring, mundane, busy work that was in the other work, just harder. He preferred to read in his free time.
I asked my dh why he didn't speak up - but he said it wouldn't mean anything if ds isn't showing him his abilities. It would've meant something to me: that I am not crazy in my assessment that ds could've passed K curriculum LAST year (or even earlier).
Try not to let this come between you and dh. My dh is fairly quiet, factual, unemotional. His typical response to me re: these meetings was always, "what is your objective in telling them that?" I wanted to vent my frustration at the school, but he only believed in saying something with a specific goal in mind and one that he thought would be achieveable. If they weren't going to agree, he wasn't going to waste time arguing. I found over many years of IEP meetings, I needed to very specifically tell him in advance, "I need you to back me up on this. I need you to tell them that our child can do this." It wasn't that he didn't believe it, or agree with me, but he never talks without a specific, achievable purpose in mind.

All in all, I totally get your frustration. I was where you are at in kindy, and even worse, ds ended up tanking on his first OLSATs (we realized later that oral directions were hard for him to process... when he took them the second time a year later-with written directions-he went from 18%-ile in nonverbal to 99th%-ile). For the most part, I just kept repeating myself, and really trying to work with the teacher on the assessment front. When we had conferences (at my request), I'd often have ds there and I'd lead him through some stuff. I'm not trying to make this sound like a dog-and-pony show, but for example, anyone reading your story about positive and negative numbers should GET that your son is atypical. But, the average assessments in kindy just don't allow your son to show that. Eventually, the teachers caught on. Now, he's in 7th grade, in a great gifted program, rocks his testing, rocked the SAT last year, all good. With ds10, I think I had a better handle on it and pushed harder for enrichment (thus he now goes to the MS for math). It does get better, but it's very frustrating at the time.
Hang in there and continue to advocate. You're not crazy, you're not off the mark, your son is NOT a typical kindy as far as academics.
Good luck!!

Blech. I hate those meetings where they work more to intimidate in the name of a "team."

OK, positives from the meeting: Someone will test him on the math. He'll do AR.

Put it in a neutrally-worded email to all present at the meeting, and express your thanks for taking the time to meet with you. If you don't have a timeline for the math testing and beginning AR, ask for clarification of the timing in the email.

On the reading comprehension, we're currently "teaching to the test" so that we can figure out more accurately what his real reading level is. The kids have to reply with the NAMES of the main characters (not just "it was about two dogs," but "the story is about two dogs named Rocky and Spot", identify the setting and when it took place, and recount the story with detail from beginning to end. For these lower level books, it often requires bringing in details only in the pictures, and reciting the text nearly word-for-word.

Coach him on being invested in the AIMSWEB assessments. He'll take another one soon.

Geofizz...thanks for the encouragement. Er are definitely going to have to "learn " to take tests.

We started Xtramath (it's a whole class thing to to at home). I saw something I had not previously realized: he is nearly crippled with anxiety on a timed test. I watched my seriously-mathy kid panic over 2+3. The panic was two-fold: he had to hunt and peck the numbers on the keyboard (the ten key won't register) and then just froze. I suggested he tell me the numbers so I could type them, and this helped somewhat...but he was still nearly in tears that hr let his teacher down. I had to remind him repeatedly that his teacher will be proud of him because he's working on this "homework". I can see right now that any assessments will be unreliable. Poor guy.

Momtofour - sounds like our boys are "brothers from another mother"! Yes, my ds was a self-taught reader. He did have a fascination with letters, but of course we didn't have to drill phonics because he read so easily. I can see the benefit of the basic-phonics lessons he's getting- especially for spelling. His "challenge" packets are also ridiculously easy - they seem to be first grade phonics - he will find them tedious. But it will help him - kinda.

My sister is an educator and suggested they assumed I was "that mom" even before the meeting. Do you have suggestions about approaching the teacher again? I get the feeling the school thought my issues were with THEM. Really, my goal is to help my ds not only tolerate school, but find value in it.

Yes - our hubbies are the same, help us all.

Testing anxiety -- work on it. Build tolerance for it. Decoupling the typing from the facts is a great start. That might also explain the AIMSWEB flop. Also, if he's not hitting the reading comprehension (forgive me if I'm projecting based on our experiences), you might also want to work on the math testing from a similar perspective. My DS has not tested well on the internal district testing because the kid has to explain why the answer is right. We've had to teach how to explain that 573 is greater than 462. "Because it's bigger" isn't good enough.

It's hard to avoid being seen as "that mom" when going to a meeting such as that. What has been most successful for me is to focus on the weaknesses. "Can you call me some time this week? I'm wondering about some things I'm seeing in DS' ability to describe what he's read. I'm wondering if you can help me understand his reading comprehension." I then set forward an agenda to talk about the weaknesses. When it comes to the in-person conversation, I think bring up the issues arising from the strengths. My DS has a history of speech therapy and struggles with expressive speech and articulation. It's worked quite well to describe some of the speech history to the teachers as an attempt to have them understand the whole child. Then when the discussion rolls around to the math ("yeah, turns out the school psych had never seen a score that high before...") then I'm not the pushy parent, just the parent looking at the whole kid, warts and all.

YMMV

Thanks. I tried that approach by saying we are worried that ds has a low frustration tolerance and tends to give up easily when he's challenged (and that was before seeing the test anxiety with xtramath). I gave examples with bike riding, tying shoes, not understanding a concept immediately - but I sense they still thought my assessment was due to the fact I have hothoused my ds to the point of causing the perfection/anxiety problem.

Sigh. If they only knew the times I sent my ds to his room to "just play" and forget about learning for awhile. Nope. It's not how he's built. Well, unless it's Wii.

Do you have suggestions about approaching the teacher again? I get the feeling the school thought my issues were with THEM. Really, my goal is to help my ds not only tolerate school, but find value in it.

Yes, they probably do think you're *that* mom, but you know, you just might have to get comfortable with that! ;)I would politely follow up in a week or so (after the original meeting) with an email to the psychologist asking what assessement would be given, and when, as far as math. DO NOT be afraid to really ask questions, especially in light of your ds's anxiety on timed tests. Let them know if you think the proposed test would be a bad fit. Make sure your ds has some idea what to expect.
I'll be honest, I rarely followed the advice to "ask for help" or "talk about his weaknesses" when it came to my one ds. The other kids, yes, but with ds12, they seemed to already see too many weaknesses due to his poor speech and OT skills. Anything I said that added to that, they seemed to view as reason not to give him more advanced work (2E wasn't well known/accepted). Definitely ask to see the assessments they've done as far as reading. I politely requested copies/viewing of EVERY assessment done by the school, many of which were put in his file but not necessarily shared with me. I would ask to meet with the teacher on a monthly or quarterly basis. Even the teachers who WANTED to differentiate often got busy and it fell by the wayside. Another thing we did (and yes, I know it's only October :)) was to ask in March for a "transition" meeting with the current teacher and the lead teacher for the next grade(in our case, teachers weren't known, so we met with the lead). We were never refused regular or transitional meetings and we found that the consistent regular meetings really made things easier. It wasn't so much "why aren't you doing this?!!" but "So, what enrichment are you considering for ds next quarter?" I would bring examples to each meeting of things he was doing as well.
One hard thing (that I know MANY parents here have found) is that the school can pounce on any missed thing - if they give your ds an end-of-third grade math assessment, he might not know lattice multiplication or the name of the distributive property, but he might be able to do multiplication and division just fine. You really have to be able to talk through the assessments and perhaps prepare your son a bit for bits and pieces like that.
I also think it's imperative to get school and/or district administration involved. The teacher was often afraid to say yes without the principal's buy-in, and the principal hated to make the teacher do extra work, but the district level gifted and/or curriculum head would often blithely agree that "oh yes, of course we differentiate, and sure, we try to individualize for each student." Sometimes I felt bad that they'd agree to big conceptual things without having any idea of the work needed to back that up, but I used that to my advantage a number of times.
There are no easy answers in kindy, because frankly, a lot of teachers still believe that everyone will "level out" around third grade. UGH!!!! In each of my kids' cases, I found the exact OPPOSITE to be true. As they got older, their bits and pieces of knowledge shone through, and as tests got harder, they pulled away. You can only go so far on the state testing (and frankly, some of the questions are so stupid and confusing that my kids would get them wrong even if they actually knew the concepts) but on the EXPLORE or SAT, you could see the wide gap between them and their peers. I had my youngest start the EXPLORE in 3rd grade and it made a huge impression on the school (again, I took it to the district, as well as the teachers, because the Director of Curriculum really understood the magnitude of doing so well on an 8th grade test).
Don't back down. You don't have to be rude, but you can be polite and persistent. I volunteered constantly in the classroom, became active in PTA, remembered the school secretary on every holiday, and tried to be as ingratiatingly sweet as possible, while continuing to request what I thought my kids needed. It gets easier to show their knowledge with every passing year, as they get out of rote computation in math and start actual discussions in reading/science/SS.
Oh, and every time you meet with the teacher, or anyone, follow up with a note IN WRITING. I always, always confirmed, "it was so nice to meet with you, and I'm excited to hear about your plans for my ds. My understanding is that he will (study independently) (do 3 AR tests a month) (have an alternate spelling list) etc....
Good luck!

Thanks again for this - I would DEFINITELY call myself a reasonable person. I do hope they see this. What makes this worse is I have a dual interest in appearing "workable": I'm the mother of their student AND I have a private practice treating kids/teens that is fed through positive word of mouth. I rely on the local school district to refer to me.

I'm definitely dealing with the "everyone's the same by third" mentality. Though the school psychogist, who looks so young, did mention that "sometimes kids are always ahead " one time during the meeting. I think she was flying solo on that one.

OK: patience, courteous follow-up, patience, persistence. Got it.

Evemomma, I'm sorry you're having a tough time at school - advocating is never easy (well, maybe it is but I haven't found my "easy" moment yet lol!). I haven't had time to read this full thread, and I'll admit to starting with the most recent post and reading backwards... which means I haven't gotten very far!

There's just one thing I'd add here -


I've heard a lot of comments on these boards about the "everyone is the same by third grade" attitude... fwiw... third grade was held up with that same kind of magical emphasis in more than a few conversations I had with my ds' K-2 grade teachers, but I've never heard it as a "everyone is the same by third grade". My understanding (from the way our teachers viewed it) was... more of "everyone catches up to reflect where there ability will naturally put them" by third grade. As in, early readers aren't necessarily going to be the most able readers always because some of the kids who just naturally start reading later will catch up and become very competent or perhaps extremely advanced readers. Other kids who aren't ready to sit still and learn but want to still be up bouncing around simply because they are developmentally a little "younger" than the kids who were eager to go to school might very well be one of the highest ability kids in the class. It doesn't mean your child is going to be any "less" able by the time they are in third grade and it doesn't mean that all the other kids will suddenly be able to work at the same levels as *each other* - instead it means that when a teacher works with 25 different kids in a kindergarten class, he/she can't always predict which of those 25 will be the top reader or best math student in junior high, but by third grade teachers are more able to predict who the more able and top performers are because most kids have passed the early developmental milestones and are ready to learn without having to develop attention or motor skills, and the motivation to learn has started to kick in. I saw this reflected in the children that each of my own children's early years of school.

Good luck advocating at school - it's tough, but it's also very worth it!

polarbear

Thanks for your insight, Polarbear. I must say that I think there is a serious adulteration of the "third grade rule" as I have heard it. Yes, it seems assinine to me that "everyone" magically equalizes at the age of 9. I do see a lot of merit in not making assumptions about "late bloomer". I was a late bloomer myself.

Kcab...we'll see if my ds can tolerate it. It's not the exercises that are freaking him out, it's the "placement" quizzed. If it's going to be too anxiety-laden, I know his teacher mentioned workbook options for those without Internet access. Or maybe we WILL disobey the teacher altogether. Ooooooo.