Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Ack-- what to do with my apathetic 13yo??

So. My kid is taking the PSAT. She is 13. She will be taking the test with accommodations (medical-- so needs medications, special seating, breaks as needed, etc). She is a virtual high school junior. So yes, radical acceleration X3.

Because the school accelerated her an additional year last January, we didn't have a chance for her to take a practice run at this one, which is admittedly not ideal. It's the first time she's taken a timed, high-stakes exam like this (because of the barrier of getting approval from College Board for accommodations-- long story).

This is the one shot at the NMSQT, which she claims to have an interest in. In fact, her stated goal up until recently was to earn a NMS commendation, at a minimum. Her dad and I both did, and we feel this is an entirely reasonable goal on her behalf. We've said so. Maybe that was a mistake on our part, I don't know...

The thing is, she's also a major leaguer when it comes to performance-avoidant perfectionism, and also to self-handicapping. Which is what she defaults to ANY time that something isn't pretty much easy-to-the-point-of-effortless.

She's handily capable of producing triple 9's.

I sort of anticipated that she'd need a few practice tests in order to reassure herself that she wasn't outgunned or anything, and that it was going to be completely 'do-able.'

First run at things, she got scaled scores that were roughly 94th-97th percentiles. "GREAT!" right? I was thrilled since I thought, this is terrific-- now that she's seen the format, she'll realize that she has nothing to worry about and all will be well. Maybe we'll do one more so that she can see what she can do with the the throttle wide open...YK?
BUT NO.
This sent her into a complete and total tailspin. Why? Because she looked up the raw scoring and realized that she was "almost 15 points off of a NMS level" (yeah, in the TOP scoring state where we do not live, and keeping in mind that this was her first shot at this). In her mind, this practice run = "epic fail" and no amount of talking to her is budging things.

This is particularly true in the math section-- which she believes to be an area of "weakness" anyway.

She began actively catastrophizing and seems to have... given up making an effort. The follow-ups in the literacy sections have been more-or-less-static and more-or-less perfect, respectively... but the math section she seems to think she's just "not that good at math."

It is-- relative weakness, that is. She's got a 3.9+ GPA through Algebra II and is a very popular peer math tutor for her high school, fwiw, so objective data here suggests that high 90th percentiles OUGHT to be a given on the PSAT, and probably SAT. IF she were trying, I mean.

We are literally two weeks away at this point and I'm just about apoplectic over her recent attitude shift. She has decided that "maybe I'm just not that smart," and seems to have begun that spiral of "I'm no good at this, so why would I try and experience the pain of not 'succeeding' (e.g.-- 100% with no effort) when I can pretend it doesn't matter instead..."

SHE. IS. BLOWING. THIS. OFF.


It would be one thing if she were genuinely up against a limitation in performance... but it isn't. She's missing kind of random stuff, and it's the kind of thing where I can look at it and go.. HUH?? That's a sloppy computational error, or one of "whooops... guess I should have written that formula out rather than pulling it out of my backside on the fly..."

OMG. OMG. OMG. Someone-- please-- talk me down. Tell me what in heck to SAY to her. PLEASE. Because at this point, her behavior is going to make a difference not only in WHERE she eventually goes to college, but also in how much $$$$ we end up shelling out for it. Like it or not, we are not wealthy, and a difference of 10-30K is a kind of big deal to us (which is about what it adds up to at one of her top-choice local private options, over the course of four years).




Yes, this is partly a major rant, but it's also a serious question-- what on earth should I do here?? Push? Just admit defeat?? Holy COW this is a long-ranging moment to decide to opt out of playing the game, kiddo... at this point, I'm not even sure that I care about her "feelings" on the subject. I realize that sounds cold. But a lot of people (not just us) have had to basically bend over backwards to make this opportunity a reality for her.

My greatest fear is that if she decides that she has "failed" at the PSAT, it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy next year on the SAT, as well-- where it matters at least as much and maybe a lot more. She is a kid that can ROCK a standardized test. Why on earth is she DOING THIS??? Auuuuuuuuuughhhh.

Being a National Merit Commended Scholar (I was that) or semi/finalist is nice but really, in the big picture, doesn't mean THAT much. I really wouldn't put so much pressure/emphasis on it. Just be supportive and wish her well.
We can't really control our kids as they get older, frankly. If she rocks the test, great; if she doesn't, well, you will still love her! Things have a way of working out, I figure. Just encourage her to do her best and leave it at that. you can't take the test for her, LOL.

"It would be one thing if she were genuinely up against a limitation in performance... but it isn't. She's missing kind of random stuff, and it's the kind of thing where I can look at it and go.. HUH?? That's a sloppy computational error, or one of "whooops... guess I should have written that formula out rather than pulling it out of my backside on the fly..."

OMG. OMG. OMG. Someone-- please-- talk me down. Tell me what in heck to SAY to her. PLEASE. Because at this point, her behavior is going to make a difference not only in WHERE she eventually goes to college, but also in how much $$$$ we end up shelling out for it. Like it or not, we are not wealthy, and a difference of 10-30K is a kind of big deal to us (which is about what it adds up to at one of her top-choice local private options, over the course of four years)."

I got the semi-thingy and I love making random PSAT/SAT errors. I'm an expert at sloppy math. Speed over accuracy, that's my motto.

Only once did I ever get an 800 on the math section of anything, and that was some achievement test thing.

Although it sounds like she may be being a 13 year old, so the problem may be that she's 13.

I'm certain that I am completely unhelpful here.

The best I can think of is that you need to tell her that the more she does practice tests the higher her score will get and eventually she will get so good at it that she will feel like she's sandblasting a soup cracker. Or a hot knife through butter. I'm getting hungry for some ice cream. With hot fudge. Mmmmmm. Although you use hot spoons to scoop out ice cream, not hot knives. I'm hungry.

And that's how high-stakes standardized tests work.

Not the ice cream, the practice testing.

Yeah, yeah-- we don't really care about that part (NMS) of things, honestly... though college admissions are a WAY different ballgame than they were when we were all there. It's more about her doing her best without all this baggage getting in the way. We only want her to feel proud and do her best. The rest will take care of itself, truly. There is a lot getting in the way of that happening right now, though.

So just let her self-handicap and tell her she's a "winner in our book" no matter what?

I'm pretty sure that won't work for her. She's got this internal dialogue happening that refutes any kind of "it's okay/good enough" verbiage, if it doesn't measure up to her standards (100%, or as near as makes little difference). It doesn't matter if it's genuine or rational, she can find a way to undermine or dismiss it in her head.

It's also true that once she fails to achieve to her standards (due to self-handicapping, usually-- or to completely, wildly inappropriate self-expectations), she tends to take it so much to heart that it spirals into sort of global dysfunction.

We saw this a couple of years ago with a pair of things in quick succession-- a speaking competition (that she virtually went into winging a 20 minute technical talk), and then a math midterm later that same week (which she bombed). The next four months were a nightmare; at one point she had lost about 10% of her (already very slim) body weight and was suffering from globalized anxiety/insomnia. The thing is-- I know what triggers this. She self-handicapped because... well, honestly, I am not sure. For the challenge? To 'up' the stakes? In order to make the 'prize' higher value to her intrinsically? Adrenaline? No idea, really. I just know that the outcome was bad-- and she interpreted this not as "Wow, bad call on the 'no preparation' thing, there" (rational/logical) but instead as "I'm a complete and total loser and I don't deserve oxygen..." (In spite of anything we said to her).


I just don't know what to do about it to short-circuit the process before it gets rolling. She has to take this test on the 20th. Her only options are to do her actual best... or... not.

If she genuinely didn't care and were capable of just shrugging off the (relative) failure as "no big deal" and moving on, that'd be one thing. I might not be thrilled given the financial costs, mind you, but I'd accept that some things come with being 13 and lacking a certain maturity. But I know her better than that. She's ratcheting up the tension on this, and at the same time, somehow dismantling the machinery to reach the goal she set for herself. Classic, classic, classic self-handicapping happening here.

I'm just beside myself in thinking about it. It's a train wreck looming ahead, and I feel powerless to do anything to avert disaster.

Is there any way to actually 'reach' a perfectionist in the throes of a major swan dive?

When I say that I don't really care about her feelings-- that's obviously not true. What I care about is her overall mental health, and I care very little for her irrational logic which is serving to undermine that. It's like-- nobody does this to my kid-- not even... er... my kid?

"I'm just beside myself in thinking about it. It's a train wreck looming ahead, and I feel powerless to do anything to avert disaster.

Is there any way to actually 'reach' a perfectionist in the throes of a major swan dive?"

The only think that ever pulls me out of a good solid game of self-sabotage is...nothing.

Sometimes I crash.

Usually I come to my senses and pull myself out before I hit the ground.

LOL-- Jon, not at all unhelpful. That's sort of been my thinking all along, and that's exactly what a couple of family friends have advised, too-- just keep running through the practice stuff and it'll eventually feel like autopilot. It just doesn't seem to be helping from what I can tell, and she's becoming increasingly defeatist in her outlook.

She's basically doing the same exact thing every Sunday morning when I have her run through another practice test (math only-- the literacy sections she's already maxing out on and seems plenty confident about).

So her raw scores are running in the 55-65 range. Repeatedly. I've had her look through a couple of "brushing up" tips, look over what she missed, etc. etc. Nothing seems to be making much difference, though she certainly knows HOW to work the problems correctly when she runs through them a second time. You know, when she bothers to actually write anything at all down in her efforts to run through a geometry problem. (Grrrr)

It might turn out to be fine-- she always tests better than she practices, and it seems like the higher the stress level the better she does. Adrenaline junkie. But that's a real high-wire act, gambling that it will always work out, and we've seen what happens when she performs merely 'adequately' or 'well' instead of at potential.

Thanks for the insights, by the way.

Clearly this is not something that DH or I can even begin to discuss with anyone IRL-- because naturally, any problem is because of DD's three year acceleration and us pushing her. (Yeah, right.)

The only "pushing" we've done is to say "Oh, that's nice. Yes, I'd say that if you do your best, you should have a very good chance at a NMS commendation score. Completely reasonable goal. Good for you, honey. Would you like a practice test booklet from Amazon? I think you should take some practice tests since it's such an unfamiliar situation."


Most people get stuck at "13yo" and "PSAT" and jump right to Tiger Parenting.

OK...so she's not apathetic. She's more like: scared beyond all belief such that she has to pretend that whatever it is that is on the horizon doesn't actually exist because even the meta-mention of it makes her internly freaked.

This is anxiety...and it feels awful...feels like you will die from it (since it triggers one's fight/flight response which tells the brain: You are going to die!).

There is no way to logic out of anxiety because it is illogical. Maybe I'm wrong - but as an anxiety-laden perfectionist (in modest recovery, wink) I will tell you that I know this act quite well.

Is there any way to cancel the test? Does she have to take now? Has she ever met with a pyschologist/counselor to learn tools to decrease anxiety? CBT (especially biofeedback) can be fascinating for gifted "kids". I would also recommend getting a few blood tests (though she may HATE this) because things like hyperthyroidism, vitamin defiencies, and other metabolic issues can make existing anxiety worse. I have all my anxiety clients screen medically before starting with me, so we aren't missing anything.

What you are describing sounds to me like high anxiety. A small amount of anxiety can be helpful when you take tests- it can help you focus during the test or push you forward as you try to study, etc.
However, too much anxiety, like what you are describing, is bad. You need to look at how much of this anxiety is coming from you/your family- sort of emphasizing to her that you must get a certain score or we can't pay for your college; that really may freak her out.
It reminds me of when my little one was 3 or so years old. He WOULD NOT poop in the potty! He pooped in his diaper but he wouldn't do it in the potty, no matter what. We talked about it, we read stories about it, but no poopies.
I took him to the doctor, kind of thinking frankly, that the doctor could somehow MAKE him do it.
The doctor just shook his head and said that my son "held all the cards (and the poop)." he said, he'll poop in the potty when he wants to- and he eventually did.

sort of emphasizing to her that you must get a certain score or we can't pay for your college; that really may freak her out.


That very DEFINITELY isn't coming from us.

We've, in fact, pointed out that the actual $$ associated witha National Merit scholarship is quite minimal. It's a nice honor, but little more.

(Of course, at a couple of private schools, merit scholarships LOCALLY as a result add up to some major cash... but we've not discussed that with her. At all. Haven't even discussed it in the house while she's home.)

She's an odd duckling when it comes to stress. Truly-- she's sort of an adrenaline junkie.

Best she's ever done on a standardized test was the full battery that she took when:

a) she'd been spending the preceding three weeks at HOSPICE nearly round the clock with a dying grandparent,
b) taking back-to-back-to-back high stakes testing
c) with the car packed for a dash back up the interstate for another 600 mile road trip to that grandparent's funeral service.

It's like the stress has to reach some failsafe/fuse threshold and beyond that, she's good to go because it has reached such a cacophany that it drowns out the voice of doubt or negative self-talk or something.

I can't really explain it. But I've seen her do it. She SHINES when she's under a lot of pressure. So part of her self-handicapping probably falls under the category of "optimizing" with that particular quirk in mind.




At the moment-- I'm having her run through yet another practice set (just the two math sections) with no calculator. She wasn't happy about this, but if the only way for her to see that she can, too do those problems is to slow her down and force her to write things out and think things out... so be it.

Not sitting the exam isn't really an option at this point given the arrangements that had to be made for her to test at the registered test site. It would be very very bad to back out when they've had to get an additional proctor and she's not even an enrolled student there. KWIM? I also fear the idea of such standardized tests taking on an even more fearsome aspect if we send her a message that this IS such a big deal that she's correct to be that afraid, if that makes sense. She doesn't have anything to fear, really. No way am I going to legitimize test anxiety. Desensitizing, sure. Teaching some coping skills, absolutely. But legitimizing, no.


Thanks again for the ideas. Lots of things to think about.

anxiety, perfectionism, crash, fake apathy... just all a bunch of emotional parachutes so that failure is under complete personal emotional control... need a new parachute other than a sloppy apathetic defeatist approach.

brainstorm... other controls...
1) mine was speed with lots of rules like never double-checking work, can't write down my math, some were actually helpful like a five or ten second rule on language questions, then move onto the next one.
I never did practice tests, but maybe focusing on speed and losing big time for dumb mistakes to self-challenge is an approach?

2) I think OCD type thoughts can be ways of asserting controls and externalizing ownership. She could ritualize her work area to have everything just so; then if something goes wrong it isn't a capability issue it is the fault of a ritual failure.

3) Along those lines, having lucky things

4) Alter test pattern... do even numbers first... etc.

5) since ymmv, some other emotional parachute that makes sense for her

Only advice I've ever given to anyone taking a standardized test was to have a half cup of coffee before the test.

First, take a step back and look at the scores needed for a Letter of Commendation and for NMF for your state. If she was 15 points off of NMF for a high scoring West Coast state - let's say that is CA - then she would clearly be commended. CA NMF cutoff in 2013 was 221, commended was above 202. If she has maxed out on CR and W, then the M does not need to be so great to get commended (80 CR, 80 W, then only need a 43 M to get a 203).

I had the opposite problem with my eldest - she is a slacker. My middle one, in 9th grade this year, is the perfectionist. It will be interesting to see her PSAT score (will take in 9th, 10th, 11th), though she did fairly well on the SAT when she took it for CTY as a 7th grader.

I could not motivate my eldest, now a 12th grader, to study for the PSAT. She did study a bit (mainly CR) for the SAT, and received a score that would have been NM Commended had she scored that on the PSAT.

I think it may just be the teenager thing. We seem to fight this battle with anything that might help her get into certain colleges.

We seem to get better results when we give her some space and don't discuss things too much. View the PSAT as practice, and she'll take the SATs later this school year. Sign her up for the ACT as well, even though you live on a coast, so the ACT is not the popular test. Mine wasn't happy when I signed her up for ACTs, but she did like her score and it could only help her. And don't forget the SAT subject tests. Have her plan her test schedule - or for my slacker, I signed her up for the various tests and just dropped her off there on test day.

Good luck. These tests will be over at end of junior year, then on to college applications...

From my perspective, there was no time or energy left for test anxiety in that situation. Anxiety, for some people, is what your brain does when it's not busy enough with other stuff.

I second the suggestion for some anxiety-reduction counseling. My DD has been like an entirely different kid after just a couple of sessions.

Just an update here-- though I wasn't sure if should put this in the small victories thread or here...

I forced the little Princess to look through the DRILLS in the Princeton Review book yesterday afternoon, showed her how to set up one type of problem with dimensional analysis methods (rather than the clunky, memorize-the-table-so-that-you-don't-need-to-understand-the-math method advocated... and really, GGA to THAT... )...

and had her take the mock exam prepared by College Board and included with registration... and she SMOKED that thing. SMOKED it. She was well into NMS range on that practice test (triple 9's and a 98th on math), and she'll almost certainly perform better with the adrenaline of tomorrow.

Now she's happy and confident. She thinks that she can "beat" that score tomorrow morning. And because she and her bestie (HG, age-typical 11th grader who took it on Wednesday) are rather competitive, including some good-natured gender-based teasing, she's now playing for bragging rights in a game of 'you show me yours' later on. LOL.

Whatever works. I'm just glad that she's feeling better about the whole thing and is motivated to give it her ALL. Take that, you perfectionism MONSTER.

Great! How does she think it went yesterday?

She thinks (but is reluctant to say to anyone but us) that she probably scored north of 225. Maybe a perfect score if she didn't make any calculation errors, but we all know that isn't terribly likely since DD is rather prone to them. But she'll be in the 72-74 range on each section, probably, and from the sounds of things, quite likely near perfect in both reading and writing sections.

She was done in under an hour and a half, too, which blew the proctor away (she was testing individually because of her accommodations). So that was one major bonus. I sat in the hall and played angry birds so that the proctor could grab me immediately if needed.

DD said that the proctor's eyes bugged when she finished the first reading section in about nine minutes.

My only worry is that I've heard from two or three other people that this year's PSAT seemed "very easy" which is exactly what DD thought, too, relative to practice tests. So this year's scores could skew very very high, which would make the impact of that 220+ score a lot less than she'd like. On the other hand, her bestie took it on Wednesday and didn't say anything about it being "easy" on Thursday night when they were on the phone.

She was playing for bragging rights, though, after that slam dunk of the practice test. She wants to beat the pants off of the other likely contender for valedictorian (also a PG kid, nearly the same age as DD), and her bestie (age-typical 11th grader, male HG) who teases her about being both younger and female.

I then took her shopping as a reward. She got a bunch of halloween costume stuff. Oh, not for halloween. For Cosplay... which is a side-effect of the gaming lifestyle. LOL. My only challenge now is to prevent her from wearing the warm-weather costume to an outdoor table game today. LOL.

My line of thinking is the same as jack'smom, It appears to me the problem here is anxiety and fear of not getting what is "expected" of her, either in her own mind or how she perceives what her family expects of her. So how do you calm anxiety over expectations? Change the expectation. I don't mean dumb down the expectation but put it in terms that are reasonable and helpful.....go back to the phrase we've all come to know and appreciate, "Praise the effort, not the result." Emphasis that indeed her best effort is expected, whatever the result that best effort yields you'll be proud of and so should she.

Balance is such a simple word for a VERY hard concept: helping a child be proud of their accomplishments while still teaching them that they are separate from their accomplishments. I see a lot of professor kids in my practice (usually both parents are PhDs or MDs), so the kids are quite bright AND have grown up in a culture where educational success is a life-source.

My goal is to help them continue to feel great about their successes (usually academic) but learn to maintain a stable sense of self when accomplishments fall short (usually in their eyes only). If they only rely on external validation of their self-worth, then they will inevitably feel like a failure (at one point or another).