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    #139929 10/08/12 12:52 PM
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    Val Offline OP
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    I had a meeting with my DD8's teacher on Friday (4th grade). I had sent an email asking for some acceleration, in part because the teacher had placed her in the middle group of three, yet my daughter is very strong in mathematics. She did most of 4th grade math with me over the summer and a lot of fifth-grade level math as well. Lately she's been coming home with worksheets with 25+ problems of this type: 63*4; 84*7. There were four like this last week. The week before, we learned about how rows of blocks can describe multiplication. By the end of the week, she was crying about it and telling me she "dreads math group" because it goes so slowly.

    At the conference, I was told that her computational skills are "fantastic," but that her word problem skills are only average. I asked, "Then why is she coming home with 30 computational problems and two word problems?" and was told that "We have to keep those skills up." mad

    Her teacher was absolute about DD's not-great word problem skills, and was equally certain that she "is where a fourth grader should be in math." She was confident. She kept saying that my daughter "needs that foundation with problem solving." She even had me going a bit. I convinced her to cut computational problems to 5 per day max and to send word problems home instead.

    Fast forward to later that day. DD had asked to do Beast Academy every day over the long weekend. When we sat down, I decided to throw some word problems at her. These were long division problems and were mid-grade rather than basic in that they required some application of knowledge. She didn't even have to think. She just did them. Likewise for multiplication problems. I pulled some of these problems from her math book and some from a Kumon book of word problems. confused

    It's so frustrating for me when teachers are CERTAIN about a child's skill level when they are, in fact, completely wrong and (apparently) not particularly interested in exploring other possibilities. Anything I provide is dismissed out of hand. My best guess is that they think I just stood over her and told her what to write back in July or that their curriculum is somehow special and you don't truly know 4th grade math until you've been through every inch of it. Whatever, it's as though there's a conceptual barrier there blocking out new information from outside the age-grade zone, and nothing seems to get past it.

    We're going to let this go until the next conference next month. In the meantime, DD wants to do math with me and is progressing very well.

    Advice welcome on how to deal with this situation!! My goal is for her to learn at school as well as at home.

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    Start by asking for more specifics about the relative weakness in solving word problems. Assume that there is something they see, and ask for the basis for the assessment.

    "DD does a lot of word problems independently at home without a struggle. I'm wondering if we're seeing something differently? Can you be more specific about what it is that DD struggles with in solving word problems?" "What specific skills does she need to develop to improve in this area?"

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    It seems to me that the teacher's perceptions are likely warped by sample size, because if your DD gets only two word problems, and gets one of them wrong, that's a failing average.

    Or, it could be that the teacher is just making excuses to justify holding your child back, because differentiating is extra work on her part.

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    Geofizz-- yes, that's great. I'll send an email to her on Thursday or Friday.

    Originally Posted by Dude
    It seems to me that the teacher's perceptions are likely warped by sample size, because if your DD gets only two word problems, and gets one of them wrong, that's a failing average.

    She was getting 100% on the worksheets (okay, I made her check her work and there were always a few mistakes, but she could still find and fix them, and they weren't in the word problems.).

    I'm actually a loss to understand this. The reports I get from the kid are different from the reports I get from the school. I expect that the truth is somewhere in between, but it's hard to ignore DD when she says, "AND THEN THE OTHER KIDS DON'T GET IT and the teacher goes back to the beginning and we have to do it ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!" She's even had to teach the other kids; when I brought this up at the meeting, I was told that "many kids do this."

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    Originally Posted by Val
    She was getting 100% on the worksheets (okay, I made her check her work and there were always a few mistakes, but she could still find and fix them, and they weren't in the word problems.).

    And I'll bet the teacher never made her check her work, and never looked past the few mistakes.

    It's really easy to make a bad read on a kid if you're not paying much attention.

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    no insights or advice,
    but a sympathetic angry face.

    persistance overcomes resistance.


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    I've been talking to my hubby about this, about what I'm thinking about gifted children. I said there's no way the teachers would understand this, but I think it's better for a kid to be put wherever they're a C student and they have to work hard for A's and B's. That's what all the other kids get. That's what everybody sets up as a normal childhood for a normal kid. Why is it hard to understand a gifted kid whose parents think they should go to school to learn?

    Of course I've told him that I've read, "If your kid is ever by far the best student in the class you should find them another class (where they can go to learn)." But, if you accelerate you still have to be by far the best student in the class by graduation. Whatever age you are doesn't matter when applying to college or for scholarships; you still have to be by far the best of your class.

    I've told him that you never post about troubles and now you have one. I said it was ridiculous because you're always saying how it's only important for kids to learn well and right. If it takes holding them back a year so they actually learn then they deserve the chance at a good solid education. You or I would hold our kid back in a heartbeat if they needed the extra focus to learn properly. It should really be about what's best for the child. It's a shame when it's not.

    Grinnity would say go and talk to them about how this makes your child feel. Tell them what she's telling you. Tell them what it's doing to her self esteem. This gets through better than talking about research or excellent abilities because it's no longer about theories or about what you or I think but about what it's clearly doing right now to the emotional development of your child. Try to hold the silent opinion that, "you may want to wait and see it something breaks before you fix it, but I see the damage it's doing to my child right now".


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    Val Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    It should really be about what's best for the child. It's a shame when it's not.

    Grinnity would say go and talk to them about how this makes your child feel. Tell them what she's telling you. Tell them what it's doing to her self esteem. This gets through better than talking about research or excellent abilities because it's no longer about theories or about what you or I think but about what it's clearly doing right now to the emotional development of your child.

    This is exactly what I did. I told them (the vice principal was there; this was the teacher's idea) she was very unhappy and was crying about math class. Looking back on it, they didn't really react to that at all. DD herself asked for harder work, but again, nothing.

    In the teacher's eyes, DD isn't the best student in the class. She ignored everything I showed her at the beginning of the year and was talking about "mastery," and that DD doesn't get 100% on every test she takes. She never gets less than 80% (often 90%+). I told her that a) >80% consistently says she knows the stuff. I also tried to explain that her mind works very quickly and that she needs harder work that will force her to slow down. She's used to being able to race through most things, and isn't learning how to slow down and think or how to confront a challenging problem. The teacher backed away from the word mastery but nothing else I said seemed to take hold. Everything went back to this stuff about word problems that I just haven't observed, and there seems to be no concept that an 8-year-old could be doing 5th or higher grade math. As I mentioned, it's as though you don't know 4th grade math unless you've done the entire course in their book.

    I'm afterschooling her and it's helping, but I'm not happy about wasting her time in math class. This is just wrong. Teaching her is the school's job, after all. I've never understood why this stuff has to be so hard.


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    You could have her sit the EXPLORE, which presumes 8th-grade-level content, and see what that tells you, opting to share it with the school if the result is good.

    DeeDee

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    Seems like DeeDee's idea is good.

    How is the math text's quality? If it's anything like the 4th grade math book my DD is using, the word problems are often really terrible. My DD has zero problems with anything computational, but she gets some word problems wrong. When I look at them, I know why. I don't know what the hell they mean, either. Her text is also heavily reliant on a lot of artificial vocabulary and rules that are slow and frustrating for an inherently mathy kid who can look at the problem and see the answer without doing any of that.

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Seems like DeeDee's idea is good.

    Her text is also heavily reliant on a lot of artificial vocabulary and rules that are slow and frustrating for an inherently mathy kid who can look at the problem and see the answer without doing any of that.

    Yes on both counts! I was thinking of the CTY SCAT to begin with. Explore is beyond her skill set right now, but might not be by the end of this year.

    The textbook definitely has a lot of what you described. As an example, they were "learning" how to multiply and the book had a confusing example that used blocks to show 17*3. DD came up with 51 almost instantly, but struggled to see how they'd arranged the 51 blocks. They didn't make 3 chunks of 17; they drew rows of ten, five, and two and separated them all in way that they made them look like random rows.

    I'm really glad you brought this up. It helps moral-support-wise when someone else points it out. Thanks.


    I'll add that I also fear that a good score on an out-of-level test doesn't always count for much. I'm haunted by a post that Bostonian wrote:

    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    My 8yo son has qualified for the Study of Exceptional Talent by scoring at least 700 on the math section of the SAT.... My advocacy of a grade skip in math has failed so far....


    It's painful. Really.

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Seems like DeeDee's idea is good.

    How is the math text's quality? If it's anything like the 4th grade math book my DD is using, the word problems are often really terrible. My DD has zero problems with anything computational, but she gets some word problems wrong. When I look at them, I know why. I don't know what the hell they mean, either. Her text is also heavily reliant on a lot of artificial vocabulary and rules that are slow and frustrating for an inherently mathy kid who can look at the problem and see the answer without doing any of that.

    That's what I was wondering, as well.

    Assessment which becomes more about the tool than what it purports to evaluate is a HUGE problem for us. It's always been the single biggest problem across all subject areas, in fact.

    What has school taught my DD?

    a) how to write coherently at a level roughly meeting expectations for a bright high schooler, and
    b) how to assess the mind of a test-writer so as to attempt to parse the poor communication efforts of others.

    That's it, pretty much. While I think that both things are good to learn, I'd obviously have preferred a lot less emphasis on the latter point. It seems grossly unfair to me that to meet the needs of non-NT kids, they have to be BETTER than the adults providing them curriculum and instruction at communication just so that they aren't improperly labeled/categorized. Honestly, that'd be a pretty tall order even for many adults. "Ohhhh, see, and with THIS question, you were supposed to assume that _________________. Not like that other question, where you weren't supposed to know anything at all that you haven't learned from the class textbook, I guess..." crazy Drives me batty.

    What happens when she tackles something like Singapore's Challenging Word problems workbook, Val? My DD loved those problems when she was this age. I couldn't get her to willingly work on drill, but she loved the mental challenge of tackling something she could sink her teeth into like that. (That's still more or less true, actually.) Well-written/slightly snarky word problems seem to go over better with GT kids because there is an intrinsic reward in doing them.


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    Originally Posted by master of none
    We were very fortunate to have a set of teachers that moved dd to the next level each time she started to get stuff wrong.

    I say this to illustrate that math that is too easy to overthink is not good for anyone. She is lucky to have you. I think we lose a lot of kids this way when they give up on math.

    I think the teacher really believes she is doing this for your daughter's good. Getting her a strong foundation in math. I haven't been able to change the minds of any of these sort. Instead, we have managed to work around them, sometimes after considerable time and discomfort.

    Thank you. I've told DD that what happens in math class at school is less important than what she learns at home and that she shouldn't think less of her abilities because of the slow pace of the group she's in. She's starting to accept that slowing down isn't a sign of weakness, and is starting to succeed consistently on the more complex basic algebra problems that she's doing with me. I'm happy about that.

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    Val, I haven't had time to read all the responses, but fwiw I'd probably do a four-pronged approach in collecting data to show your dd's true level of abilty: I'd start with a test trial of ALEKS (which used to be no charge for a few weeks) and have her do the assessments for the end of her current grade level and 1-2 (up to whatever) grade levels higher and keep a copy of the reports. The upside to the ALEKS assessment is that it's tied to curriculum standards by state - so you can show exactly where your dd is at relative to your local grade level expectations.

    I'd also have your dd take EXPLORE (or other talent search test depending on what's available where you live) - that will give you an above-grade-level assessment and a percentile reporting relative to grade level.

    I'd have her work through the types of word problems at home that her teacher seems so concerned about so that you can take that as proof she is capable of doing them.

    And lastly, I'd let her keep working after school on whatever math problems or program she enjoys and take copies of that work in as proof of her abilities as well as her motivation.

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    Quote
    As an example, they were "learning" how to multiply and the book had a confusing example that used blocks to show 17*3. DD came up with 51 almost instantly, but struggled to see how they'd arranged the 51 blocks. They didn't make 3 chunks of 17; they drew rows of ten, five, and two and separated them all in way that they made them look like random rows.

    Groan. Oh, you're preaching to the choir. This is homework with my DD every night. "It's 51! I don't understand this other stuff." "You have to draw all these blocks, I guess. In...rows of tens and fives? Looks like it. Then you add the twos or something? No, the ones." "I hate this, mama."

    Speaking of word problems, I will say that DD also does a set of enrichment word problems from another curriculum every week and has no problem with them. What's more, she enjoys them and flies through them. These are more along the line of logic problem/brain teaser math problems. They appear to actually have been $%^#@#$@!!! proofread/tested by humans as well.

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    Afraid of Your Child's Math Textbook? You Should Be.

    http://open.salon.com/blog/annie_ke..._your_childs_math_textbook_you_should_be

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    Originally Posted by Val
    I'm haunted by a post that Bostonian wrote:

    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    My 8yo son has qualified for the Study of Exceptional Talent by scoring at least 700 on the math section of the SAT.... My advocacy of a grade skip in math has failed so far....


    It's painful. Really.

    Since my son is mentioned above, here is an update. In the summer, I informed the school principal of the score by email, and my wife suggested leaving the ball in their court. They have not made any modifications. If my son were to accelerate, taking Algebra I this year (a skip from 5th grade to 7th grade math) would be plausible. A middle school math teacher posts the homework assignments (problem numbers from the textbook) online. Students are expected to do about 40 problems daily, of a routine nature. (When 40 problems a day are assigned, you know they cannot be too challenging. I looked up the problems online to confirm this.) My son does not need that much drill, so "sitting on his head" nightly to force him to do such work seems pointless. He is better off using the AOPS (or some other challenging) textbook and/or taking an AOPS course, or he may take Intermediate Algebra through EPGY. He has exhausted the Open Enrollment math courses, so now cost is a factor. He is learning little in 5th grade Everyday Math, but at least the curriculum is not making serious demands on his time at home.

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    Originally Posted by kcab
    Did this type of thing not come up for your son? What did you do to get past it for him?

    Yes, it came up with him, too. They were rigid about the critical need to do all of second grade math as prescribed in the Everyday Math textbook. To the school's credit, they offered him a grade skip about four months later, but they still wanted him to do the 3rd grade math workbook on his own. At the final conference of the year, the teacher told me that "he might even be able to go past that!" He had almost finished 5th grade math with me at that point.

    A similar conceptual block happened with science in fourth grade. Again, the teacher thought that it was simply not right to let a kid do 5th grade science if he hadn't done all of 4th grade science. She didn't seem to see that it was the same course, except with bigger words and more detail in the 5th grade course.

    We finally got past it with a second grade skip into a small school run by a gifted guy. Sorry to say the school was acquired and the new owner changed it completely. frown So he's homeschooling now.

    The blog post at Ultramarina's link was disturbing, not too surprising ( frown ), and clarifying. It explains a lot about the geometry book I've complained about, the weird homework my DD has been bringing home, and a lot of other things. I swear, things would be pretty bad for us without the web and the online booksellers.

    I believe that my daughter's teachers (and most other teachers/schools) really do want to help kids. But there's a lot of evidence indicating that many or most of them don't have the mathematical background required for making proper evaluations of the the flashy textbooks that get pushed by the big publishers. And yet that certainty comes in here: even in that blog post, the author emphasized that the books should be written by educators. She didn't really mention subject experts with graduate degrees in mathematics. This is almost as depressing.

    Last edited by Val; 10/10/12 08:17 AM. Reason: Clarity
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    I don't have any words of wisdom for you other than to just keep fighting.

    But, I totally sympathize as we've been in this same situation with our DD11 several times, despite multiple sources of above-level testing. In our case it was a teacher who apprently thought their curriculum was so superior to others that the fact that DD knew so much didn't matter because she had never learned using their curriculum and would benefit from repeating all the material she already knew through their curriculum. You would think that when teacher comes across a child who loves to learn, loves a particular subject, is great at that subject, and is asking to learn more, that the teacher would be so excited about getting to nurture that student and maybe even mentor them. But, no. IME, they just come up with a million excuses why they couldn't possibly be ready for more challenging work.

    I'd write more but it just makes me want to scream thinking about the excuses from teachers that we've faced over and over.

    Recently, we insisted that our DD at least be given the chance to try the Algebra I class, with the caveat that she could be moved back if she was struggling (which we knew she wouldn't), and her clear success in the class is the only thing that's keeping the teacher from expressing her doubts (She still seems doubtful, nonetheless, that an 11 year old can do Algebra!)

    Last edited by mnmom23; 10/10/12 08:38 AM. Reason: Added Info

    She thought she could, so she did.
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    Quote
    I believe that my daughter's teachers (and most other teachers/schools) really do want to help kids. But there's a lot of evidence indicating that many or most of them don't have the mathematical background required for making proper evaluations of the the flashy textbooks that get pushed by the big publishers. And yet that certainty comes in here: even in that blog post, the author emphasized that the books should be written by educators. She didn't really mention subject experts with graduate degrees in mathematics. This is almost as depressing.

    It seems to me that they need both types working together on textbooks. You need someone who can say whether the material is being presented appropriately in terms of kids' developmental levels, but, obviously, you also need to make sure that the math is right and the theoretical background is strong.

    I'd like to point out that while our kids are being served poorly by these books, it's even worse for struggling students. A really badly written question can transform even a good math student into one who looks bad on paper some of the time, unless/until they develop the "Hmm, what they really meant was..." skills HowlerKarma was talking about. Kids who are having more difficulty are likely to mess those up every time. That clarity is SO incredibly important.

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    Quote
    I believe that my daughter's teachers (and most other teachers/schools) really do want to help kids. But there's a lot of evidence indicating that many or most of them don't have the mathematical background required for making proper evaluations of the the flashy textbooks that get pushed by the big publishers. And yet that certainty comes in here: even in that blog post, the author emphasized that the books should be written by educators. She didn't really mention subject experts with graduate degrees in mathematics. This is almost as depressing.


    Bingo. I've talked and talked and talked to our national charter organization about this very point for YEARS. The major problem with their assessments is that they aren't being written by subject experts-- but by "educational" ones who have "background" in the subject. That misses nuance that genuine subject experts catch in an instant, and also ferrets out those little problems that dog GT kids like crazy in curricula (ambiguities, inconsistencies, conceptual errors when viewed from a higher level of understanding, etc).

    This is why nationally normed exams in subject areas are NOT written by subject educators but instead by subject experts.

    I know, I know... I will just tuck my soapbox away now...

    There really isn't a good way to fight this. As Bostonian noted, the options are pretty bleak either way-- they chose to go outside the system for authentic learning whilst (nominally) keeping the child in on-level instruction, and we chose to push for what acceleration they WOULD give us (and we pushed kinda hard, actually)...

    So we fight to get DD to do work which at least occasionally is actually a waste of her time... (and really, how on earth do you answer such an assertion when both you and your child know that it is TRUE??) and have her work almost at her ability level. Bostonian's family, they have authentic work... but it also requires a child who is willing to 'phone it in' at school, on the compliance side.

    I'm not sure which is better. It probably depends on the child. Knowing our DD is what led us to go this route rather than forcing her to submit to ANY amount of material that is 2-5 years below her readiness level. The reason is her response to doing such tasks-- abject refusal and total shutdown. In her case, we know from experience that there's no reasoning with her in this particular venue re: material that she finds an insulting waste of her time and energy. She would really and truly rather fight and do NOTHING than be treated like a trained seal for even a short period of time.
    Bostonian's route-- taken with my DD in particular-- could only lead to an ODD diagnosis, frankly. blush

    Enrichment is a great option for some kids. But not all of them are willing to put up with the mind-numbing, remedial portion of things alongside it.

    Val, I also wonder if rigidity is related to a lack of conceptual background in the subject. That seems to be something I've noticed with my DD's teachers-- the ones that are most rigid seem to have the most superficial understanding of the material themselves. It makes them really uncomfortable to think outside the lines.






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    I actually think you should push back hard because you are not asking for "individual" subject acceleration, which may require all kinds of crazy paperwork signed by multi-level administrators (like in our district). You are simply and reasonably requesting that your DD be placed in the top tier of a three-tier math hierarchy that is already in place.

    It would be helpful to provide something along the lines of the ALEKS state standards list. I think that DS' school was more impressed by the ALEKS document showing 100% mastery on the 8th grade standards for our state then the EXPLORE scores comparable to top-performing 8th graders.

    Perhaps you can request a trial with the top math group and counsel DD to double-check her work?

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    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    I actually think you should push back hard....

    Perhaps you can request a trial with the top math group and counsel DD to double-check her work?

    I pushed back today. Yesterday she came home with two- or three-step word problems requiring her to work backwards. They were reasonable. Today she came home with "Joey has 3 buckets of paint. Each one has three gallons. How many gallons of paint does he have?" mad I sent a polite email to her teacher saying that I was concerned about how trivially easy the problems were. If things don't improve, I'll push hard at the next conference. In the meantime, she asked to do algebra after finishing all her homework, so we did.

    When the concept of moving her up was discussed, I was told that the other kids were "superior" to her in this respect and that she "really needs that extra time." ??

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    I've read the thread (didn't originally realize it was yours) and it sounds like a nightmare, but oh so familiar. We had one second grade teacher claim that DS couldn't do word problems at all, only to find out that she was grading them incorrectly. And starting in kindergarten, we heard the "right where he needs to be" line, which thankfully dwindled and disappeared over time. In DS's fourth grade math class, all the word problems have been extremely basic, like your Joey problem.


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    Really needs that extra time FOR WHAT PURPOSE, exactly?

    crazy


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    Not to hijack, but DD is just being introduced to writing algebraic expressions for the first times (realish ones, like figuring out that a word problem can be expressed as x = (y + 8) /2) and it's like the lights went on behind her eyes. Not only did she catch on instantly, but you can see how it excites her. I've been wondering if my opinion of her math skills was wrong. She's doing low-A work one grade ahead (basically, she's de facto skipped in math) but seems relatively challenged, albeit mainly by all the blah blah rule blah previously discussed. Then I see how incredibly easy THAT was for her, and I don't know.

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    Just a side note on the conversation about math textbooks and teachers. I have worked with math book writers. And with the ones I worked there were two groups of experts involved - math education professors (the ones who teach future teachers how to teach math) and math professors. Majority of math education professors have not been in classrooms themselves for decades, but they still teach how to teach our kids and write textbooks for our children. However, I believe that the largest issue we are dealing is that there is no coherence in our educational system, the curriculum that teacher education program teach to future teachers does not align with the curriculum they will be expected to teach. And how could it be aligned, if states, districts, schools within districts have such a varied curriculums. Then the curriculum teachers are expected to teach does not align with any textbook 100%. In addition, our elementary school teachers are not math teachers, they may have minored in math, but they are not specialists. High school teachers are supposed to be, but what about middle school teachers? Research shows that the middle school teachers are just really left out, somewhat forgotten by the teacher preparation programs. If somebody is interested there is a report available online "Breaking the Cycle International Comparison of U.S. Mathematics Teacher Preparation.", I think the Executive Summary touches on many issues discussed here. http://www.educ.msu.edu/content/sites/usteds/documents/Breaking-the-Cycle.pdf

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    I am reading "Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics" by Liping Ma. I would highly recommend it for anyone who is dissatisfied with their child's elementary math education. I haven't finished it but the thesis seems to be that when teachers don't have a profound understanding of fundamental mathematics they can't teach it. Shocking, I know.

    In the first chapter Dr. Ma points out some of the mathematical errors American teachers inject into simple substitution with regrouping. In a problem like 52-29 they tell kids that "You can't subtract 9 from 2" (which is wrong) or "The 2 has to borrow from his next door neighbor 5" (as if they are two separate numbers and not part of a whole.)

    Anyway, to OP's point, it is difficult for a teacher who does not understand or is actually afraid of math to assess a child's math ability. I think that is why many responding parents have seen teachers stubbornly adhere to their curriculum despite poor writing, mistakes or clear indications that a child is ready for more. Many elementary teachers can't go outside the recipe that the curriculum provides because they lack the mathematical training and understanding to do so.

    I think this also explains the (to me) baffling popularity of reform curricula like Everyday Math and Investigations. The curriculum packages the teaching of "deep understanding of math concepts" into bite-sized pieces, games and worksheets. The teachers don't really have to understand the math concepts profoundly. They just execute the canned curriculum that somehow teaches concepts deeply all on its own. It's genius marketing by the textbook company.

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    Originally Posted by MagnaSky
    In addition, our elementary school teachers are not math teachers, they may have minored in math, but they are not specialists. High school teachers are supposed to be,

    Very few HS math teachers have taken math beyond calculus. Most have zero interest in number theory or Euclid's Elements. And the situation gets worse in Middle School. And it is abysmal in elementary school.

    The very top school districts have true specialists but most other schools do not.


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    Originally Posted by Austin
    Very few HS math teachers have taken math beyond calculus. Most have zero interest in number theory or Euclid's Elements. And the situation gets worse in Middle School. And it is abysmal in elementary school.

    I'd settle for a fourth grade teacher with a solid knowledge of algebra I and geometry. In fact, I'd be thrilled.

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    A really badly written question can transform even a good math student into one who looks bad on paper some of the time, unless/until they develop the "Hmm, what they really meant was..." skills HowlerKarma was talking about. Kids who are having more difficulty are likely to mess those up every time. That clarity is SO incredibly important.

    We ran headlong into the badly-written-word-problem thicket tonight:

    "24 students wanted to watch candy being made in the firehouse kitchen. The students organized into even groups and gathered around each of 5 pots of candy. How many gathered around each pot? How many students had to stand behind another student?"

    Err..huh? But then the groups weren't even, regardless of whether "even" means "number in group is divisible by two" or "the groups were the same size." That is, assuming that the remaining students were made to "stand behind" the others?? So they didn't count as being in the group??

    Time and again, the edumacational system in this country manages to surprise even a cynic like me with the depths to which it will sink in search of mediocrity. frown

    Last edited by Val; 10/11/12 09:09 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Val
    We ran headlong into the badly-written-word-problem thicket tonight:

    "24 students wanted to watch candy being made in the firehouse kitchen. The students organized into even groups and gathered around each of 5 pots of candy. How many gathered around each pot? How many students had to stand behind another student?"

    Err..huh? But then the groups weren't even, regardless of whether "even" means "number in group is divisible by two" or "the groups were the same size." That is, assuming that the remaining students were made to "stand behind" the others?? So they didn't count as being in the group??

    Time and again, the edumacational system in this country manages to surprise even a cynic like me with the depths to which it will sink in search of mediocrity. frown

    How sad to be hoping it was a typo! Otherwise, it's so beyond sad - what is this from, the teacher, a textbook, a worksheet?

    DeHe

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    ...How many students needed to be dissected or have a limb amputated to create equal mass amongst each group?

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    I agree with Evemomma... the best choice here is to answer with fractions... maybe a quick doodle of the firehouse kitchen.

    Last edited by DAD22; 10/12/12 12:30 PM.
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    Evemomma and DAD22,

    smile smile smile

    You found a way to make this mess something I can laugh about. Thank you!

    Val

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    Originally Posted by DeHe
    How sad to be hoping it was a typo! Otherwise, it's so beyond sad - what is this from, the teacher, a textbook, a worksheet?

    DeHe

    It was from a worksheet produced by the textbook publisher.

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    Man, I have some doozies from my DD's book. Worse than that (I can tell what they mean there, although it's horrible). I wish I could reproduce them, but I'm paranoid about revealing where I am.

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    This makes me think of a project: a compilation of the worst math problems from elementary school texts. Seriously...someone should be doing that.

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    VICTORY!

    DD's teacher noticed that her division skills "separated her" from the middle group and moved her up. Now she slightly less below her actual level.

    Am starting an Ultimate Bad Homework Questions thread.

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    Hooray for the group move and yeah! For starting the thread, too. I'm so glad our school doesn't use textbooks except as just another resource, instead of god's word.

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    Originally Posted by St. Margaret
    I'm so glad our school doesn't use textbooks except as just another resource, instead of god's word.
    Huh? confused


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    Originally Posted by Iucounu
    Originally Posted by St. Margaret
    I'm so glad our school doesn't use textbooks except as just another resource, instead of god's word.
    Huh? confused

    Textbooks aren't necessarily considered authoritative at her school? I'm guessing that's what she was trying to get across.

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    Originally Posted by momosam
    Originally Posted by Iucounu
    Originally Posted by St. Margaret
    I'm so glad our school doesn't use textbooks except as just another resource, instead of god's word.
    Huh? confused

    Textbooks aren't necessarily considered authoritative at her school? I'm guessing that's what she was trying to get across.

    That's how I took it. As a metaphor comparing textbooks to the doctrine of sola scriptura.

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