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At the beginning of the school year the teacher told us she would do grouping for reading ability and an advanced math group. None of this has happened. Even last year in kindergarten they were already in reading groups.

One day the teacher tells me my dd was struggling with before and after, i.e. what number comes before 7? Yet my dd has been able to do this for 2 years. And just the night before for homework they had to make their own numbers and write the before and after numbers. DD made numbers such as 34, 56, 72, etc... instead of just 5, 8, or 3. And she had all the before and afters right.

Then one time the teacher tells me she needs help understanding fewest coins. Meaning if they have to use coins to show 13 cents (just using nickels and pennies) they will need 2 nickels and 3 pennies. So after the teacher tells me this I take dd home and ask her to show me the fewest coins for 18 cents and she actually wanted to use a dime, a nickel, and 3 pennies. She said that using a dime would be fewer coins than using 2 nickels. Not entirely what the teacher wants, but correct.

Then today I was volunteering in the classroom and she tells me my dd was a having a hard time with listing 2 numbers that will add up to 10 and asked me to take her and 3 other girls to work on it. So I take them to a corner of the room and my dd was able to answer the questions without even using the manipulatives given by the teacher. Another girl also had no problem with it but 2 of the girls did need to get the kinks worked out but did eventually catch on. Fwiw they use Everyday Math and I think it's just weird.

Yesterday while we were out for a walk I decided to give dd a math problem to do in her head. I asked her if she had 10 cookies and her sister had 12 how many more did her sister have. No problem. Then I asked her how she could make it so they had an even number and without hesitating she said have her sister give her 1 of her cookies so they each will have 11. This is the same kid who will do her 3rd grade sister's math. So I can't understand why the teacher keeps commenting that dd doesn't understand something when clearly she has it. Add to this she has had 2 math assessments so far this year and didn't miss any problems on them.

I had another mom approach me about the same thing with her dd, teacher said she was having a hard time with something and when she took her home to help her with it her dd had no problems with it. So it's not just happening to my dd.

To make matters worse, dd has been telling me she is sick and doesn't want to go to school when she is really not ill at all. She just plain doesn't want to go to school. When I ask her why she tells me it's not interesting and she'd rather stay home with me.

I just really don't know what to make of all this. And I feel if I try to address dd's reason for not wanting to go to school the teacher is going to claim she shouldn't be bored b/c she has concepts she needs to work on (according to the teacher). We will be having conferences later this month but I have a feeling the teacher is going to dismiss our request for differentiation.

The most direct but not cheapest or easiest way to address this would be to get some achievement testing. If your DD tests well in math then she is not the problem and you can focus on whatever the real problem might be. I have my suspicions based on your post!

BTW we have started EM at our school this year and I think it's a ridiculous way to teach math. Some people love it though. As my 6th grade DS11 griped yesterday when I asked him to explain what he dislikes about math this year he said "In 2nd grade we learned 3rd grade math; in 3rd grade we did 4th grade math; in 4th we did 5th grade math; in 5th we did 6th grade math. Now in 6th we are doing FOURTH grade math!"

FWIW he is great at math, tested at the top of his class last year on the school math standardized tests and the teacher did not identify him for the math team. Teachers are not always good judges of kids' ability.

Could she be going underground? Here's a link to an old Linda Silverman article about very young girls dumbing down to fit in as early as kindergarten.
http://www.jeffcogifted.org/images/jagc/pdfs/where_have_all_the_girls_gone.pdf

Does the other kid who is having issues have similar abilities? If so, maybe you could ask the teacher to give the two of them little challenges together. If she had a buddy who was doing the same stuff and getting a little bit of special attention, she might show her true colors.

EDM is... weird. There are some things that they make more difficult (just my opinion as a teacher and parent and lover of math) in the name of teaching the "bigger" lesson.

When I taught fourth grade last year, for example, my students (who were all average or above average math students) struggled with long division. They understood the concept of dividing, understood how to work with big numbers, but got tripped up on the EDM-style dividing. It was driving us all bonkers because both they and I knew that they were capable of doing it, but they kept getting lost in the process of "try a number and see if it works." Finally, at the end of the year, I showed them what would be probably be called the "old fashioned" way, and we practiced for two days straight and VOILA! A class full of kids who could do long division.

Add into that the fractured nature of the program and it drives me completely bananas. It's not the spiraling I take issue with, necessarily, but the tiny one-day chunks in which things are presented... some kid stake a day to orient themselves to that specific style of doing math, and then POOF the curriculum has moved on and they spent a day "not getting it," when in fact we have to move on just as they're mentally prepared to show what they know. Kids would struggle demonstrating mastery of concepts that I knew they were fully capable of getting, not because they didn't understand or it was too difficult or they didn't work hard enough or I didn't teach it well enough, but because they had spent the few short hours devoted to that subject figuring out the language and expectations, rather than just DOING it.

I'm not articulating what's in my brain very well, but it is entirely possible that a student with a higher level of math comprehension is, in fact, struggling in EDM because some of the activities don't just teach and then ask you to show what you know. If you get tripped up on the game or algorithm or whathaveyou, you don't get to demonstrate that you do, in fact, have an advanced mastery of that concept.

I'm not saying this is your dd's issue... but in general, EDM drives me bonkers when it comes to both struggling and high-achieving students. Struggling math studentsspend their time pushing through activities that don't hone in on the skills they need to be working on (BUT OH! IT SPIRALS! MAYBE THEY'LL GET IT NEXT TIME! Ummm...), and high-ability students spend their time pushing through activities that don't just let them demonstrate mastery; they can get caught up on weird language and rules that aren't really necessary if you already know what you're doing (or are so behind that you're not prepared to access the information).

/rantmode

smacca: YES! But unfortunately, you are describing not just our experience of EDM, but also our experience with the curriculum we are using now (aligned with Common Core).


This is the story of my DD's LIFE in math! I was thrilled when, for once, we actually ran into something she genuinely didn't get that needed to be taught for real (tricky number lines). Everything else we've ever struggled over has been terminology, weird gimmicks, and lengthy ways of doing things that she instinctively knew how to do another, simpler way. If you just give her a PROBLEM with actual numbers, she cruises. It's all this "show how you multiplied using 47 different strategies and draw them and name the strategies" that makes us both mental.

Oh, god, the vocabulary. DD8 was placed in 4th grade math this year mostly because she didn't know the vocabulary. I have no problem with teaching the "associative principle" and the order of operations, but are you seriously going to tell me that my daughter is not ready for a higher level of math because she doesn't know what a "minuend" is?

It's possible and something the psychologist told us she has probably been doing since she started preschool. That is when her growth trajectory changed. I do volunteer once a week and I know my dd is an avid daydreamer. So I wonder if she is getting these questions wrong when she is spacing out and then the teacher asks her something and brings her back to reality and dd has no clue what the teacher is asking.

I don't personally know the abilities of the other child, on the surface she seems neurotypical. I try to keep my dd's ability to myself. I was once at the park with another mom who was complaining about how their child wasn't being challenged enough in school and I thought to myself "finally somebody I can talk to who will understand". Yeah, it didn't go very well. In the end I think our situations were not so similar and it got very quiet and awkward.

I agree 110% with everything you have written here! My younger dd is just starting EM this year in 1st grade and I don't really see her having a problem with it other than the boredom that comes with practicing hopping on a number line, or finding a pattern in her house and drawing it on her homework page.

My older dd who has a LD is really, REALLY, struggling with it for the very reasons you posted. Specifically this:


I would be interested to hear more opinions on EM for mathematically gifted children, if it works for them or if it hinders them.

Not sure if we will get the achievement testing done. Dh is hesitant to spend the money only to have the school ignore that data as well.

Mountainmom...do you think the teacher is being passive -aggressive like, "See...she's not as smart as you thought!"? I would be annoyed as it seems the teacher is going out of her way to demonstrate how "average" dd is.

I completey understand hollow promises of differentiation. My ds is in K...snf I know our school does EM (of course, they're counting in ds' class still). My ds is a very mathy kid, do I'm interested at the responses here. He does like to find multiple ways to a solution - maybe that will help him?

Are you in CO? If so I can pass on the info of an inexpensive achievement tester.

Messaging you!

hi, saw this post and interested in it b/c having this same problem in current ds*turning6thiswk* kinder class. no differentiation. was told would be and NONE.

i can't afford testing and schl district won't do much more than look at it, they will do own testing. in 2nd grade, i will request it early, in approx 10mos.

everyone here suggests supplementing afterschool...
but when does my son get to just play and be a little boy? it irks me beyond belief that he sits at school 6.5hrs each day, and learns relatively very little, if any. such a waste of time! i think what i could do with that time, if i was teaching him-- but i want him to have the social incl routines of school. that is huge part of kindy.

what are you going to do?
do you have any options/choices?

*also re teacher say dd can't do a subject etc, have u met with her about this to explain she is doing it at home, and maybe dd try to fit in with rest of class? i'm surprised teacher doesn't know about this?
finally--- going underground can happen with boys also, it is slowly but surely-before my eyes- happening with mine.

good luck and plz share how it goes and what solutions you all come up with

Cc6-
I do understand what you are saying about not really wanting to do afterschool "school", as I don't either. Yet, I am doing it. My ds is in kindergarten, so the homework is not very time intensive. Ds has has been doing the week of homework for school on Monday. Then, he works more at his level the rest of the week. 1 funny thing is he finds way to make the schoolwork more challenging and I send that all in (the required work and how he expands on it.) also, he does get computer time (which he loves) afterschool. I make that time for educational games. Not sure if this helps, but it's what I'm doing inconjunction with fighting for differential at school. I can say we did have our first victory. Ds took star test and AR level, so that he can finally at week 10 read at his level! Now, I am going to work on language arts. I am hoping that with the AR level, this will be easier.

Yeah. sigh. At school, I guess... although there's a difference between structured social time and plain old down time, where he can do as he pleases.

The trick for me is to keep the after school stuff short, like 30-45 minutes, tops. I find it's an "ok" balance.

Would they be further ahead if I got them for the entire 6 hours? Probably, but that's the nature of one-on-one and a child tailored curriculum. Plus they'd be missing out on the social stuff... forming a sense of community with the kids in their neighborhood.

Anyway, I have stuff ready for DS8 when he gets home. We start at 4:00 or 4:30 and go until 5ish. He has from 3:00-4:00 and then from 5/5:30 - bedtime to just hang out and be a kid. I should add that I've stopped scheduling activities after school - we do all our sports on the weekends only, and we're taking a break from piano (our teacher is studying abroad for a year). Plus I limit play dates to two days per week, otherwise I'm overrun with kids, lol.

Anyway, cc6 I know it's frustrating... but maybe make your after school enrichment sessions short. At least it's better than nothing, better than letting your DS's cognition stagnate.

We have done "after-schooling" for 3-4 years now. One page of math workbook, one page of phonics or vocab, flip through some spelling and vocab words. Probably 20 minutes of homework a day. Both of my kids, at least through third grade, have had like zero to 5 minutes of daily "real" school homework, so that was never a problem.
Both my kids are 2 grade levels ahead in math and reading, due to this. My fourth grade is in our full-time gifted program, which works a grade level above. He finally occasionally has homework. What we are seeing is that it's no problem for him, since he has always had mommy homework, but many of the other kids have problems doing it.
So you can do just a little bit of daily after-schooling and see huge pay-offs. And your child still will have alot of play time leftover.

DS, soon to be 5, is in Kindergarten. I have yet to talk to the school about him but is gearing up to do so within the month. So far I have DS do 30 minutes of KUMON math at night. That is it. He loves it so it has been fine for him. As of now he is also doing vision therapy so I don't want to put too much on him. I have always let DS lead himself, mainly because he will CHOSE to sit and write stories during his off time or do other educational things. Just what he loves to do. No need to push there.

Kumon has been so awesome for him though. It is structured and more than just "mommy" telling me to do these worksheets. He takes it seriously.

Man, sign me up for this school. *sigh*

*Sigh* that is what I think we will end up doing. The sad thing is we really shouldn't have to do 'afterschooling'. At this point school just feels like a waste of time for anything learning related. Her class isn't even doing spelling yet and I think they are quite capable. Heck, my 3rd grader hasn't even had spelling yet this year and we're going into the third month of school. I'm really starting to lose my faith with this magnet school but unfortunately they are the only school with the G&T program in our city. Otherwise we would have to drive 20 miles away to go to a different one and dh really doesn't want to do that. Other option (if the G&T class next year doesn't make a difference) is to go to our neighborhood school and hope that they will allow dd to go to the next grade up for reading and math.

Any recommendations for math books/programs for dd? I'm currently using Saxon for my older dd who is struggling with math as a remedial program in addition to the Everyday Math they use in school. Saxon works really well for older dd b/c it is very repetitive and slow moving while spiraling but not as much as EM. Dd#2 who is 6 probably needs something quicker.

Our public school district has a very strict policy of limiting nightly homework. It's actually really dumb, IMHO. We are in a very high-powered school district, and I think most of us just after-school as needed.
For up until 3rd grade, they are limited to like 10 minutes of homework a night, which includes reading! (I have my kids read at least 30 minutes or more a night).
And there is no wiggle room either! My 4th grader is hearing impaired and it takes him a little longer than the other kids to learn spelling and vocab words, due to that disability. We get like 30-40 spelling words (and they are finally sort of difficult) Monday or Tuesday night for Friday, which for him, is alot.
So I asked the teacher- could we get the words on Friday to work on them at home over the weekend? he's hearing impaired and it's a more difficult task for him.
She said, No! That violates the district policy!
I thought- gee, I'm asking if we can do extra homework to help him, not do less homework. I'm trying to see if we can amend his IEP for this. The homework they have had from school, up until this Gifted program in 4th grade, has been dumb and easy.

The research is pretty clear on the limited value of homework for kids in elementary school. Even in HS, I believe only math HW has been shown to have learning benefits. Of course, if they aren't learning anything IN school, then that's frustrating, but sort of different. I agree that the HW policy shouldn't disallow you from getting the spelling words early to accommodate for your DS's needs, of course!

My DD8 has an average of an hour and a half of HW a night, often two hours, and it's nearly killing us. She is somewhat slow, but not excessively so. Even if you did everything at a very brisk pace, there's no way it would take less than an hour. I suspect part of the reason she gets so much is that she is at a gifted magnet and some of the parents are pretty Tiger Mom-ish (and then many are not at all--interesting mix).

Two hours a night of homework for an 8 yo??!! Yikes! That sounds super painful. I am glad I guess that my kids get little homework right now. My son had been in kindy in a private school- he had like 30 minutes a night of homework, much of it stupid. It was things like, write this word ten times. Well, after writing it 3 times, he had the hang of it but they insisted the full 10 times!

Funny you should mention that--she does have to write her spelling words 4x each...

I consider ourselves pretty lucky that dd in 1st has less than 5 min. of homework (yes, that is how long it takes her to do the Everyday Math worksheet). And dd usually only 10 min. or less, just depends on how much she is struggling with it. So I don't see a problem with adding a little extra to help dd#1 where she is struggling, and a little enrichment for dd#2 to challenge her a bit.

Remember, one of the points of education is to instill a sense of repetition in students.

When you are assembling 18 wheelers in Detroit, you don't get to say to the manager, I already know *how* to tighten the azimuth thruster on the new Ford Avenger Caravan, I don't need to do it 1,000 times a day!

Remember, America's manufacturing strength is built on a highly trained and educated workforce.

When they emerge from their high school chrysalises students have to be ready to do what they are asked to do.

And sometimes they have to do it 1,000 times a day.