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    #139606 10/03/12 02:17 PM
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    At the beginning of the school year the teacher told us she would do grouping for reading ability and an advanced math group. None of this has happened. Even last year in kindergarten they were already in reading groups.

    One day the teacher tells me my dd was struggling with before and after, i.e. what number comes before 7? Yet my dd has been able to do this for 2 years. And just the night before for homework they had to make their own numbers and write the before and after numbers. DD made numbers such as 34, 56, 72, etc... instead of just 5, 8, or 3. And she had all the before and afters right.

    Then one time the teacher tells me she needs help understanding fewest coins. Meaning if they have to use coins to show 13 cents (just using nickels and pennies) they will need 2 nickels and 3 pennies. So after the teacher tells me this I take dd home and ask her to show me the fewest coins for 18 cents and she actually wanted to use a dime, a nickel, and 3 pennies. She said that using a dime would be fewer coins than using 2 nickels. Not entirely what the teacher wants, but correct.

    Then today I was volunteering in the classroom and she tells me my dd was a having a hard time with listing 2 numbers that will add up to 10 and asked me to take her and 3 other girls to work on it. So I take them to a corner of the room and my dd was able to answer the questions without even using the manipulatives given by the teacher. Another girl also had no problem with it but 2 of the girls did need to get the kinks worked out but did eventually catch on. Fwiw they use Everyday Math and I think it's just weird.

    Yesterday while we were out for a walk I decided to give dd a math problem to do in her head. I asked her if she had 10 cookies and her sister had 12 how many more did her sister have. No problem. Then I asked her how she could make it so they had an even number and without hesitating she said have her sister give her 1 of her cookies so they each will have 11. This is the same kid who will do her 3rd grade sister's math. So I can't understand why the teacher keeps commenting that dd doesn't understand something when clearly she has it. Add to this she has had 2 math assessments so far this year and didn't miss any problems on them.

    I had another mom approach me about the same thing with her dd, teacher said she was having a hard time with something and when she took her home to help her with it her dd had no problems with it. So it's not just happening to my dd.

    To make matters worse, dd has been telling me she is sick and doesn't want to go to school when she is really not ill at all. She just plain doesn't want to go to school. When I ask her why she tells me it's not interesting and she'd rather stay home with me.

    I just really don't know what to make of all this. And I feel if I try to address dd's reason for not wanting to go to school the teacher is going to claim she shouldn't be bored b/c she has concepts she needs to work on (according to the teacher). We will be having conferences later this month but I have a feeling the teacher is going to dismiss our request for differentiation.

    Last edited by mountainmom2011; 10/03/12 02:20 PM.
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    The most direct but not cheapest or easiest way to address this would be to get some achievement testing. If your DD tests well in math then she is not the problem and you can focus on whatever the real problem might be. I have my suspicions based on your post!

    BTW we have started EM at our school this year and I think it's a ridiculous way to teach math. Some people love it though. As my 6th grade DS11 griped yesterday when I asked him to explain what he dislikes about math this year he said "In 2nd grade we learned 3rd grade math; in 3rd grade we did 4th grade math; in 4th we did 5th grade math; in 5th we did 6th grade math. Now in 6th we are doing FOURTH grade math!"

    FWIW he is great at math, tested at the top of his class last year on the school math standardized tests and the teacher did not identify him for the math team. Teachers are not always good judges of kids' ability.

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    Could she be going underground? Here's a link to an old Linda Silverman article about very young girls dumbing down to fit in as early as kindergarten.
    http://www.jeffcogifted.org/images/jagc/pdfs/where_have_all_the_girls_gone.pdf

    Does the other kid who is having issues have similar abilities? If so, maybe you could ask the teacher to give the two of them little challenges together. If she had a buddy who was doing the same stuff and getting a little bit of special attention, she might show her true colors.

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    EDM is... weird. There are some things that they make more difficult (just my opinion as a teacher and parent and lover of math) in the name of teaching the "bigger" lesson.

    When I taught fourth grade last year, for example, my students (who were all average or above average math students) struggled with long division. They understood the concept of dividing, understood how to work with big numbers, but got tripped up on the EDM-style dividing. It was driving us all bonkers because both they and I knew that they were capable of doing it, but they kept getting lost in the process of "try a number and see if it works." Finally, at the end of the year, I showed them what would be probably be called the "old fashioned" way, and we practiced for two days straight and VOILA! A class full of kids who could do long division.

    Add into that the fractured nature of the program and it drives me completely bananas. It's not the spiraling I take issue with, necessarily, but the tiny one-day chunks in which things are presented... some kid stake a day to orient themselves to that specific style of doing math, and then POOF the curriculum has moved on and they spent a day "not getting it," when in fact we have to move on just as they're mentally prepared to show what they know. Kids would struggle demonstrating mastery of concepts that I knew they were fully capable of getting, not because they didn't understand or it was too difficult or they didn't work hard enough or I didn't teach it well enough, but because they had spent the few short hours devoted to that subject figuring out the language and expectations, rather than just DOING it.

    I'm not articulating what's in my brain very well, but it is entirely possible that a student with a higher level of math comprehension is, in fact, struggling in EDM because some of the activities don't just teach and then ask you to show what you know. If you get tripped up on the game or algorithm or whathaveyou, you don't get to demonstrate that you do, in fact, have an advanced mastery of that concept.

    I'm not saying this is your dd's issue... but in general, EDM drives me bonkers when it comes to both struggling and high-achieving students. Struggling math studentsspend their time pushing through activities that don't hone in on the skills they need to be working on (BUT OH! IT SPIRALS! MAYBE THEY'LL GET IT NEXT TIME! Ummm...), and high-ability students spend their time pushing through activities that don't just let them demonstrate mastery; they can get caught up on weird language and rules that aren't really necessary if you already know what you're doing (or are so behind that you're not prepared to access the information).

    /rantmode

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    smacca: YES! But unfortunately, you are describing not just our experience of EDM, but also our experience with the curriculum we are using now (aligned with Common Core).

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    high-ability students spend their time pushing through activities that don't just let them demonstrate mastery; they can get caught up on weird language and rules that aren't really necessary if you already know what you're doing

    This is the story of my DD's LIFE in math! I was thrilled when, for once, we actually ran into something she genuinely didn't get that needed to be taught for real (tricky number lines). Everything else we've ever struggled over has been terminology, weird gimmicks, and lengthy ways of doing things that she instinctively knew how to do another, simpler way. If you just give her a PROBLEM with actual numbers, she cruises. It's all this "show how you multiplied using 47 different strategies and draw them and name the strategies" that makes us both mental.

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    Originally Posted by smacca
    high-ability students spend their time pushing through activities that don't just let them demonstrate mastery; they can get caught up on weird language and rules that aren't really necessary if you already know what you're doing

    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Everything else we've ever struggled over has been terminology, weird gimmicks, and lengthy ways of doing things that she instinctively knew how to do another, simpler way.

    Oh, god, the vocabulary. DD8 was placed in 4th grade math this year mostly because she didn't know the vocabulary. I have no problem with teaching the "associative principle" and the order of operations, but are you seriously going to tell me that my daughter is not ready for a higher level of math because she doesn't know what a "minuend" is?

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    Originally Posted by knute974
    Could she be going underground? Here's a link to an old Linda Silverman article about very young girls dumbing down to fit in as early as kindergarten.
    http://www.jeffcogifted.org/images/jagc/pdfs/where_have_all_the_girls_gone.pdf

    Does the other kid who is having issues have similar abilities? If so, maybe you could ask the teacher to give the two of them little challenges together. If she had a buddy who was doing the same stuff and getting a little bit of special attention, she might show her true colors.

    It's possible and something the psychologist told us she has probably been doing since she started preschool. That is when her growth trajectory changed. I do volunteer once a week and I know my dd is an avid daydreamer. So I wonder if she is getting these questions wrong when she is spacing out and then the teacher asks her something and brings her back to reality and dd has no clue what the teacher is asking.

    I don't personally know the abilities of the other child, on the surface she seems neurotypical. I try to keep my dd's ability to myself. I was once at the park with another mom who was complaining about how their child wasn't being challenged enough in school and I thought to myself "finally somebody I can talk to who will understand". Yeah, it didn't go very well. In the end I think our situations were not so similar and it got very quiet and awkward.

    Last edited by mountainmom2011; 10/04/12 11:59 AM.
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    Originally Posted by smacca
    EDM is... weird. There are some things that they make more difficult (just my opinion as a teacher and parent and lover of math) in the name of teaching the "bigger" lesson.

    When I taught fourth grade last year, for example, my students (who were all average or above average math students) struggled with long division. They understood the concept of dividing, understood how to work with big numbers, but got tripped up on the EDM-style dividing. It was driving us all bonkers because both they and I knew that they were capable of doing it, but they kept getting lost in the process of "try a number and see if it works." Finally, at the end of the year, I showed them what would be probably be called the "old fashioned" way, and we practiced for two days straight and VOILA! A class full of kids who could do long division.

    Add into that the fractured nature of the program and it drives me completely bananas. It's not the spiraling I take issue with, necessarily, but the tiny one-day chunks in which things are presented... some kid stake a day to orient themselves to that specific style of doing math, and then POOF the curriculum has moved on and they spent a day "not getting it," when in fact we have to move on just as they're mentally prepared to show what they know. Kids would struggle demonstrating mastery of concepts that I knew they were fully capable of getting, not because they didn't understand or it was too difficult or they didn't work hard enough or I didn't teach it well enough, but because they had spent the few short hours devoted to that subject figuring out the language and expectations, rather than just DOING it.

    I'm not articulating what's in my brain very well, but it is entirely possible that a student with a higher level of math comprehension is, in fact, struggling in EDM because some of the activities don't just teach and then ask you to show what you know. If you get tripped up on the game or algorithm or whathaveyou, you don't get to demonstrate that you do, in fact, have an advanced mastery of that concept.

    I'm not saying this is your dd's issue... but in general, EDM drives me bonkers when it comes to both struggling and high-achieving students. Struggling math studentsspend their time pushing through activities that don't hone in on the skills they need to be working on (BUT OH! IT SPIRALS! MAYBE THEY'LL GET IT NEXT TIME! Ummm...), and high-ability students spend their time pushing through activities that don't just let them demonstrate mastery; they can get caught up on weird language and rules that aren't really necessary if you already know what you're doing (or are so behind that you're not prepared to access the information).

    /rantmode

    I agree 110% with everything you have written here! My younger dd is just starting EM this year in 1st grade and I don't really see her having a problem with it other than the boredom that comes with practicing hopping on a number line, or finding a pattern in her house and drawing it on her homework page.

    My older dd who has a LD is really, REALLY, struggling with it for the very reasons you posted. Specifically this:

    Quote
    "Add into that the fractured nature of the program and it drives me completely bananas. It's not the spiraling I take issue with, necessarily, but the tiny one-day chunks in which things are presented... some kid stake a day to orient themselves to that specific style of doing math, and then POOF the curriculum has moved on and they spent a day "not getting it," when in fact we have to move on just as they're mentally prepared to show what they know. Kids would struggle demonstrating mastery of concepts that I knew they were fully capable of getting, not because they didn't understand or it was too difficult or they didn't work hard enough or I didn't teach it well enough, but because they had spent the few short hours devoted to that subject figuring out the language and expectations, rather than just DOING it."

    I would be interested to hear more opinions on EM for mathematically gifted children, if it works for them or if it hinders them.

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    Originally Posted by fwtxmom
    The most direct but not cheapest or easiest way to address this would be to get some achievement testing. If your DD tests well in math then she is not the problem and you can focus on whatever the real problem might be. I have my suspicions based on your post!

    BTW we have started EM at our school this year and I think it's a ridiculous way to teach math. Some people love it though. As my 6th grade DS11 griped yesterday when I asked him to explain what he dislikes about math this year he said "In 2nd grade we learned 3rd grade math; in 3rd grade we did 4th grade math; in 4th we did 5th grade math; in 5th we did 6th grade math. Now in 6th we are doing FOURTH grade math!"

    FWIW he is great at math, tested at the top of his class last year on the school math standardized tests and the teacher did not identify him for the math team. Teachers are not always good judges of kids' ability.

    Not sure if we will get the achievement testing done. Dh is hesitant to spend the money only to have the school ignore that data as well.

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    Mountainmom...do you think the teacher is being passive -aggressive like, "See...she's not as smart as you thought!"? I would be annoyed as it seems the teacher is going out of her way to demonstrate how "average" dd is.

    I completey understand hollow promises of differentiation. My ds is in K...snf I know our school does EM (of course, they're counting in ds' class still). My ds is a very mathy kid, do I'm interested at the responses here. He does like to find multiple ways to a solution - maybe that will help him?

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