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    #138589 09/19/12 03:19 PM
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    petunia Offline OP
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    I went today to the school to hear a noted psychologist in our area talk. The topic was supposed to be "How to Survive Adolescense". It ended up being about "How to Modify Behavior". It was okay but I came home feeling frustrated and sad over some of the things he said.

    First he talked about positive reinforcement for your kids for small behaviors like putting his fork in the sink, picking up his backpack, putting on his shoes, etc. The idea is to give tally marks or beads each time he did this, giving at least 20 every day to reinforce the positive relationship. This is supposed to motivate your child to do what you want. He alls it the "Good Behavior Game" Sounds good, right?

    Here's what depressed me:
    1) The above works for about 86% of kids. The other 14% end up in his office for behavior management (he and the other therapists walk you through a program he wrote a book about). We worked with one of his therapists and after about 4 months were told: I can't help you. Most kids by now are minding and doing what we want them to do. Yours isn't. About 90% of the kids who come through our office get this. The other 10% we send out for possible medication." So, we've been booted out of this guy's office. So, we're in the top 10% of the top 14% misbehaving, defiant, no-concept-of-time, unorganized kids????

    2) Knowing his program, it seemed like a very subtle advertisement for his book, although he never mentioned it by name.

    3) When I asked what the difference was between a psychologist and a neuropsychologist, He answered "about $50,000 a year" and tried to moved on to the next question. I interrupted and said, "I'd really like to know the difference and when you'd use one over the other". He sighed and responded "A NP is for brain injury or trauma. He'll diagnose just like a psych but will do all this extra testing and charge you a lot more for it".

    4) He said that parents shouldn't be aware of their children's homework after 3rd grade unless it's not done. Mine's in 7th. If you are asking about homework or helping with homework or managing your child's time for homework, then you are enabling him. You should only get involved if the work is not getting done (as notified by your school or poor grades). I asked if he thought that was true as well for kids with ADHD or ASD or other disorders. He said that these disorders, which he put in air quotes, had nothing to do with homework and parents still shouldn't be involved in the homework. The "disorders" simply make things "harder than" things would be with normal kids but that with a lot of hard work from the parent using the Good Behavior Game, the child should get through it by himself.

    5) Kids for whom his game doesn't work need "shock collar" type consequences and reinforcers. No examples were given. My child has not responded to ANY consequences or reinforcers. It's as if it just doesn't matter to him.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what my point here is but I came away from it very upset. My child is highly gifted, grade-accelerated, diagnosed ODD, probably ADHD, possibly ASD, no time management skills, pragrmatic language disorder, immature, and who knows what else and I'm supposed to "just work harder at positive reinforcement of small behaviors" and "don't get involved in his homework"??

    Aaaaugghhhhh! Thanks for reading.


    What I am is good enough, if I would only be it openly. ~Carl Rogers
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    Well, you know what doesn't work, so you've gotten that far.

    So, you definitely need to try something else.

    I think you need to find people with similar problems and see if they have any ideas as to what might help.

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    I know I'll be slightly off topic ... but just today I was thinking ... why in the world are my two kids (DS4 and DS2.5) going through all these therapies? for what? for being smart and wanting to do things their own way? They are not hurting anyone, they are happy doing things the way they want to, so why does everyone want to change that? Just so they fit the mold when they go to school someday??? I love my boys the way they are (yes, they drive me crazy but they are who they are!) ... why the need for making them different just because someone says they should be? ... anyways, I guess I am frustrated today too!

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    Honestly, he sounds like a jerk. I say that from the perspective as a counselor myself. No "one" program is going to fit perfectly for every kid or every family. It's sounds like he's a one-trick pony and doesn't quite know what to do if the trick doesn't get results.

    Sometimes behavior modification just doesn't work, flat out. And it's not because the child is awful or the parent is awful - it's because "misbehaviors" arise from a lot of factors and the behav mod isn't or can't change the core impetus. If I have a neorological tic, it doesn't matter how many times someone threatens to zap me with a shock, I'm still going to tic...AND I'm probably going to tic worse because of the anticipation of getting in trouble.

    I agree with JonLaw, you may find it's awesome to talk to parents in the same boat. I assure, there are many parents who feel beaten down and despondant because of everything you've mentioned. Oasis (Google "Oasis Aspergers") has links to parent support sites that might be really helpful to read. Or Google "Beyond Consequences". It's a webiste run by a psychotherapist who specializes with kids who don't "respond" to discipline the predicted way. She has a parent-tip email list for free...it's really nice. She gives supportive advice and comments that really can make a difference when you're in a place of desparation.

    Hang in there..hugs.

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    I came from being a die-hard proponent of behaviorism, but my thinking has evolved after parenting my third dd. I don't know how helpful it would be in your particular situation but I do love the book Hold on to your Kids and found it incredibly helpful.

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    What a jerk petunia! He sounds like he doesn't even like children unless they fit in his mold and validate his little theory.

    Also, as soon as I hear an "expert" who denigrates other legitimate experts in his/her own field my ears close. That's the sign of a quack.

    Contrary to what this psych has said, my ADHD/dysgraphic 6th grade son's homework is ruling my life right now. He is struggling to learn to manage his time and get it all done, including using weekends to work ahead and having to get up an hour early before school to work when he fools around in the evening until his meds wear off and does not finish.

    This week I have uncovered some very maladaptive strategies he has been using involving lying and deception in order to be "done" quicker that have risen up and bitten him. Sigh. Another strategy he has developed this year is to drag his feet on everything from brushing his teeth to packing his backpack as a sign of protest so that we all share his frustration with school and mornings are a nightmare. However, disasters can be teachable moments. My son is completely set on doing it his way until the bottom falls out.

    All this to say that the psych is just wrong about homework and you're not alone in your struggle with an older kid. Hang in there!

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    Quote
    He said that parents shouldn't be aware of their children's homework after 3rd grade unless it's not done.

    Well, that's easy enough -- if I am not aware of my son's homework, it's not done!


    Originally Posted by fwtxmom
    This week I have uncovered some very maladaptive strategies he has been using involving lying and deception in order to be "done" quicker that have risen up and bitten him. Sigh. Another strategy he has developed this year is to drag his feet on everything from brushing his teeth to packing his backpack as a sign of protest so that we all share his frustration with school and mornings are a nightmare. However, disasters can be teachable moments. My son is completely set on doing it his way until the bottom falls out.

    All this to say that the psych is just wrong about homework and you're not alone in your struggle with an older kid. Hang in there!


    Yes, this is my house! I push, and I pull, and I grit my teeth and try not to scream, but sometimes I hit a point where I just tell him, ok, tell your teacher tomorrow that you didn't want to do your homework. Go to bed. And then he drags his feet through going to bed, and he drags his feet in the morning until I drag his feet out of bed and he falls on his face.

    That shrink obviously feels that he's on the wrong end of the $50,000 a year difference, but he doesn't seem to realize it's because he only knows one trick. I would ignore him, and quickly.

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    petunia, fwiw, I think you'll find "experts" who are all over the map in any area - whether it's parenting through middle school homework, or whether or not to let your child use a pacifier when they are a toddler, or on how to learn to ride a bicycle. You have to take each piece of advice you hear for what it is, one person's point of view, collate it with what you've heard other "experts" say as well as with your own experience, and go with what makes sense from your perspective for your child.

    I think there is some simple truth to what this person said - I doubt he's done extensive studies to get his percentages, but yes, there are kids who are easy to self-motivate and who are going to be able to be responsible for their own homework and parents can take a step back. That doesn't mean that there's anything "wrong" when parents need to be involved in supporting their older children with homework or anything else - that's what being a parent is all about - supporting our children until they are ready to fly on their own.

    I have three very different kids. My oldest is 2e and absolutely needs help with homework support - up until this year he needed very very close oversight on organization - this year (7th grade) he's actually been able to handle turning in homework, bringing home what he needs, keeping track of longer term assignments on his own with just a bit of help from me. Does that mean I was doing the wrong thing in 6th grade when I was micromanaging him everyday to be sure he knew the assignments he had to do that night, had his books to bring home in his backpack, etc? Possibly to some people, not to me. I see it as I provided him with the support he needed to learn how to do it himself. I still provide him with a ton of support on writing assignments (he has an expressive language disability that impacts written expression). I'm not *doing* the homework for him, but I'm giving him the structure, tips, guidance that isn't provided through school because most kids in his grade level don't need it. So if you looked at written expression and applied that same theory of percentages, he'd be in that kicked-out 10% or the top 14% or whatever it was... but that is really who he is. And by supporting him in his homework (as well as getting remedial help for him through an SLP) he's making good progress. The goal is *eventually* to get him to self-proficiency but at this point, he's not going to be there for awhile. If I only looked at it from the angle of what those other 86% of the kids can do it would be depressing - but when I look at it from the point of view of where he is now vs where he's been, at the progress he's made, and when I also be sure that we're looking at our whole son and not just the parts that he has difficulty with, when another "expert" makes claims like this it just doesn't even resonate at all with me. So what if he's in the bottom 3% of something? He's still my amazing, wonderful, happy son. He might not ever be able to write a short story well, but he has plenty of other things he can do in life and that make him the cool kid that he is.

    Some kids don't need organizational or homework support in 6th grade - my youngest dd has been really proficient about the organizational type skills since first grade (she's in 3rd this year). I don't check her backpack and I don't need to. We help her with her homework when she has questions about it but for the most part she can do it all by herself. She's also 2e with a reading challenge, and if it wasn't for that reading challenge, I think around 75% of the questions she asks and help she needs would evaporate.

    Our older dd (5th grade) basically functions entirely on her own - organization and homework. I *wish* she'd be more willing to let us be involved as parents because there are still a lot of areas I would like to encourage her to do better in - penmanship, grammar, for example. She is math-challenged but handles it on her own (getting help from her teacher) rather than have us (parents) help her. That's her personality.

    Kids are all so different - and "experts" all have their own theories, whether or not they're trying to sell a book. No one knows your child like you do, and no one is going to have the gut instinct that you will re what is the "right" answer for your child. Don't let what someone else says get you down - trust your own instincts and know that your'e making the right decisions - you are!

    Hang in there,

    polarbear

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    I'd agree that there's no one size fits all 'program'; what do you and your child know about what prompts his worst behavior? What does your child say is the issue?

    Would plain old talk-counseling with a therapist, not for behavior modification, but just for finding out what is really really at the bottom of things be of any help? maybe you've gone that route...


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    petunia Offline OP
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    Thanks, everyone, for the support. I know I overreacted; it was just so frustrating. Especially when I was expecting to hear about adolescence, not behavior modification!

    Nautigal: "Well, that's easy enough -- if I am not aware of my son's homework, it's not done!" I LOVE this - it made me laugh. And, we've got the feet dragging, too, but it's not a statement, it just seems to be the way he is.

    We have been to therapy to just get him to talk about his behavior and he really, truly seems not to know why he does what he does.

    I'll check out some of the resources on here.

    It all just gets so overwhelming sometimes. And, then I feel so exhausted from dealing with him that I can't take on other things, let alone be told that I just have to "work harder". Bleah!


    What I am is good enough, if I would only be it openly. ~Carl Rogers
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