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    Joined: Feb 2012
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    Dbat Offline OP
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    Hi,
    Sorry, I feel really stupid asking this, but I'm trying to figure out how to discuss certain gender inequalities with DD8, who needs help understanding social issues and with whom we are constantly working on social skills (so maybe this should be in 2e? but it's a more general issue). So we've been watching Malcolm in the Middle with her and got to the episode where the Krelboyne (geek) group starts as freshmen in high school, and Malcolm fares badly because his mother embarrases him by trying to clean a stain off the front of his pants in front of a bunch of older kids. They nickname him "stain." Later in the episode, Cynthia attempts to help Malcolm regain social status by saying something about how if he doesn't do something (sorry, forget what), she'll "never have sex with him again." So DD is asking about this this morning in the car and I'm trying to explain how Cynthia was trying to raise Malcolm's social status by indicating that they had had sex and that that was very generous of her because at least in the past, having sex generally raised the social status of boys but lowered that of girls. (So question 1 is, is this still generally true among kids, or does it vary by school?) Question 2 is, why was this the case? She totally didn't believe me and said why and I had to say that I didn't really understand it myself, except that possibly there was a risk that the girl might get pregnant which could be a huge huge problem and mess up her future. So of course she said, well if they used birth control it wouldn't be a problem at all. So then I was discussing how kids should 'wait until they're ready' and have self respect and ideally wait until marriage, but I think I was less than convincing. So is there a (better/ good) reason specifically for why there was this double standard about reputations? (as well as any rationale that might be more convincing re why one should not??) Sorry I'm so ignorant about these things--I did read Queen Bees and Wannabees and some other books, but I have to admit when I think about this it doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Also, I apologize if anyone is offended by the subject--I try to answer DD's questions matter-of-factly when they come up, partly because of her weaknesses in social skills--I want to have time to have her understand these things before she has to deal with them herself.

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    I would relate this double-standard back to Victorian morality and explain how most of the educated world has moved on from it.

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    In my grandmothers generation women couldn't work (although I know an 83 yr old single mom who did, it wasn't common). I've heard or read stuff like "women stay home during pregnancy, maternity leave, their monthly visit from aunt flo". Ok I guess that last one was irony. Well, since, as every body well knows, your true value matches the exact size of your bank account that did call for the women's rights movement.

    Also there's this website called tv tropes that is a wikipedia by and for screenwriters and enthusiasts that describes "tropes" which is not stereotypes, but fairly close. It's believed that there's only so many stories in the world so all our literature, movies, songs, and thoughts rehash the same ol same old. Here's tv tropes + guy stud, girl slut. It has links to similar trains of ideas.
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyGirlIsNotASlut


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    Originally Posted by Dude
    I would relate this double-standard back to Victorian morality and explain how most of the educated world has moved on from it.

    If only this were true. I know that in certain areas of the country (I am thinking the evangelical South) the slut/whore thing is alive and well even among educated young adults. Just had a conversation about this last night in fact. I don't know how I would have explained it to dd11 at 8 yrs. old. She didn't know the details yet regardless. It has certainly come up with her recently when reading Jane Austen.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    I would relate this double-standard back to Victorian morality and explain how most of the educated world has moved on from it.

    LOL. I think its ingrained into human nature and for good reason. It is present in all societies across time.

    And its due to the fact that only women get pregnant. And that it also takes a lot of effort to raise a child. And women have to bear this more often than not. And that this has real costs that have large inescapable burdens.

    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    If only this were true. I know that in certain areas of the country (I am thinking the evangelical South) the slut/whore thing is alive and well even among educated young adults.

    I read an article recently about ivy league women doing the same thing. The author was pretty upset that "feminism" had paved the way for women to dress up just to attract men. Meow.

    Some responses are hardwired in human beings. We cannot control what we want, only how we respond.


    Last edited by Austin; 07/09/12 08:09 AM.
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    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    Originally Posted by Dude
    I would relate this double-standard back to Victorian morality and explain how most of the educated world has moved on from it.

    If only this were true. I know that in certain areas of the country (I am thinking the evangelical South) the slut/whore thing is alive and well even among educated young adults. Just had a conversation about this last night in fact. I don't know how I would have explained it to dd11 at 8 yrs. old. She didn't know the details yet regardless. It has certainly come up with her recently when reading Jane Austen.

    You didn't think I included the evangelical South in the phrase "educated world," did you? wink

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    Originally Posted by Austin
    Originally Posted by Dude
    I would relate this double-standard back to Victorian morality and explain how most of the educated world has moved on from it.

    LOL. I think its ingrained into human nature and for good reason. It is present in all societies across time.

    And its due to the fact that only women get pregnant. And that it also takes a lot of effort to raise a child. And women have to bear this more often than not. And that this has real costs that have large inescapable burdens.

    This is an important reason for "double standards". Another reason is that men can be tricked by women into raising other men's children as their own, while this happens much less often to women, for obvious reasons. Philosopher David Hume discussed this in the 1700s http://www.humesociety.org/hs/issues/v23n2/levey/levey-v23n2.pdf .

    The same logic explains why maternal grandparents are more involved with their grandchildren than paternal ones, on average.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071218122412.htm
    Family Ties That Bind: Maternal Grandparents Are More Involved In The Lives Of Their Grandchildren

    The fields of sociobiology and evolutionary psychology shed light on the questions raised by the OP.


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Originally Posted by Austin
    Originally Posted by Dude
    I would relate this double-standard back to Victorian morality and explain how most of the educated world has moved on from it.

    LOL. I think its ingrained into human nature and for good reason. It is present in all societies across time.

    And its due to the fact that only women get pregnant. And that it also takes a lot of effort to raise a child. And women have to bear this more often than not. And that this has real costs that have large inescapable burdens.

    This is an important reason for "double standards".

    Have either of you heard of contraceptives?

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    Originally Posted by Austin
    LOL. I think its ingrained into human nature and for good reason. It is present in all societies across time.

    And its due to the fact that only women get pregnant. And that it also takes a lot of effort to raise a child. And women have to bear this more often than not. And that this has real costs that have large inescapable burdens.

    Some responses are hardwired in human beings. We cannot control what we want, only how we respond.

    I think this is how I would handle it. There are so many examples of how our behaviour is driven by our "survival wiring." Males need to distribute their sperm and females need to focus on keeping the young alive and healthy. As a result, it's optimal for males to um, "share" more often, and for females to refrain, once they're pregnant and responsible for young. Therefor when males want to have sex they're praised but when females want to have sex they're thought of as being less "maternal." Since everything we do boils down to species propagation in some way or another, the less maternal females have lower status.

    I like to be frank with my kids too (DS8 & DD9). I find this easier if I talk about it in terms of science & nature - then it makes sense and it's not strange or too personal.


    Last edited by CCN; 07/09/12 09:02 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Dbat
    She totally didn't believe me and said why and I had to say that I didn't really understand it myself, except that possibly there was a risk that the girl might get pregnant which could be a huge huge problem and mess up her future. So of course she said, well if they used birth control it wouldn't be a problem at all.

    While this is an overrated risk in general when talking to teenagers, it's worth pointing out here that no form of birth control is 100% effective.

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