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    #13101 - 04/05/08 12:48 PM GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom?
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    Hello all. This is my first time posting. You all seem very knowledgeable and supportive. I’ve recently received my son’s WISCIV scores and am trying to determine what they mean from a practical standpoint. He is in 2nd grade and constantly complains about how boring school is, how he doesn’t learn anything, all he does is learn things he already knows. I’ve read in “Parenting Gifted Kids” that Children w/ 130-140 IQ range can often be accommodated in regular classrooms where teachers adjust the curriculum and social and emotional difficulties are uncommon. Children with IQ’s in the 140-160 range can seldom be accommodated sufficiently in an educational environment that merely stretches or enriches the curriculum. Too, agemates may offer little sustenance as these kids prefer adults.

    I think my son is somewhere in the middle of these two ranges. He does not have social issues with kids his own age. He’s a very easy going fellow. The teacher says he is advanced in most areas. Have you found the above classification to be accurate generally? I realize that so much of this boils down to personality and you absolutely can't just look at numbers but I would also like to have some scale such as the above to share w/ the teacher. Do you feel comfortable using GAI over FSIQ in referring to the information above? I will schedule WJIII testing soon. I think those scores will be more helpful in advocating for DS at school.

    Thank you!
    Dazed&Confuzed

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    #13104 - 04/05/08 01:19 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dazed&Confuzed]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    No, I wouldn't say that's very accurate. In part because it treats IQ as a single, monolithic number. A child can have PG scores in one area and have the overall IQ score pulled down by things less tied to GTness (like Processing Speed, since smart does not always equal fast), yet still be bored silly in class. (BTW, that's where the GAI comes in. It leaves out those scores that aren't as closely tied to GTness.)

    My DS6 has an overall FSIQ score just under 140, but with a PRI that was well into in the upper range that you listed. He was bored, angry, miserable and even began acting out in first grade, which was totally unlike him. All of this is why we had his IQ tested. When we saw his scores and looked at the behavior we had been seeing, everything made sense. We pulled him out of public school for homeschooling. If he were to go back to our public school, he would almost certainly have to be grade skipped. But our choice had MUCH more to do with his level of happiness than with his scores. The scores just explained the unhappiness.

    Then there are kids who are HG+, with scores in that upper range, who are very happy in a regular age-based classroom. Granted they do usually require significant adaptation--at least subject acceleration--but if the regular classroom meets their needs, those kids are very happy.

    Scores are one part of the puzzle that can help to make sense of what a kid needs and why. But making decisions based solely or even mainly on one score on one test on one day isn't very sensible. If you're just looking for trends, maybe you could use that as an argument with the school, but it's not something I'd want to stand behind personally. FWIW...

    As for GAI over FSIQ--what's the spread between the subtests? GAI is very useful if there's a large spread somewhere.

    I don't know if this helps...
    _________________________
    Kriston

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    #13110 - 04/05/08 02:01 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dottie]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    And why should Dazed be any different than the rest of us who are equally dazed and confused by all of this GT stuff!? LOL!
    _________________________
    Kriston

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    #13117 - 04/05/08 03:46 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Kriston]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    Well, I guess I was hoping for the test to give me an explanation as to DS's unhappiness with school. The psych looked at his scores and said that he should be fine in a regular classroom. He suggested I focus my efforts on enrichment outside of school as well as enrichment in the home. Well, we do alot of enrichment inside the home already. DS says he wants to learn at school. When he gets home from school, he just wants to play. But then someone looked at the scores for me and she said she'd consider DS HG. I guess I can't wrap my brain around that just yet. The spread between highest (VCI=148) and lowest (PSI) is 39pts. FS=136 and GAI=146. The two subtests of PSI differed by 5pts so I think the low one is a fluke. The psych did mention that he would have scored higher, he thinks, if had broken the testing into 2 sessions.

    DS's teacher is very young and if she asks me what the scores mean, I'd like to be able to say "this indicates XYZ. THis explains why he is behaving ABC." If only life were so simple.... DS has daily stomach aches in the AM. I'm baffled as to what is best for him.

    I think I saw this at this board: "My DS11 is so emotional at times, and so stoic at other times, that I think it was hard for me to take his cries for help seriously."

    That describes my feelings exactly. My DH says "What child wants to go to school?" I guess I'm trying to figure out what is normal behavior and what isn't.

    still dazed&confuzed

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    #13121 - 04/05/08 04:03 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: ]
    squirt Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/31/08
    Posts: 323
    Loc: Back in Texas, alas!
    Wish I had a clear profile. My son's FSIQ is 131 but his achievement scores are "much higher than anticipated" based on the WSIC-V scores. But, as Dottie told me, his comprehension (social) is only 9, which brings things down a bit. Even though he is doing math and reading at a much higher level than 1st grade, he says school is okay and tells the GT teacher that he doesn't get to his GT projects because the classroom assignments are "too hard". Granted, he doesn't like to write so that might be it. He doesn't complain that he is bored, but when I ask him what was fun or exciting at school it is always PE, Art, Music, Recess, AIM (that's the GT class), or even "waiting for you to pick me up". However, his behavior at home has been deteriorating since he started full time school last fall. His behavior at school is wonderful, so the teacher doesn't really see a problem.

    I don't think I really added anything to this discussion, other to say that, I, too, am dazed and confused about this whole thing.

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    #13124 - 04/05/08 04:33 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dottie]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Hi Dazed,
    I don't recall that particular book, but just to add to the Confuzing - many of the older books are talking about SB-LM scores - those old fashioned ones that go 'up up and away' to over 200, and yes, compared to 200, your son's scores would indicate that he would be 'happy' in a normal classroom.

    But he's not - an easy going kid doesn't 'constantly complain' unless there is some reason - and YES normally kids love to go to school in 2nd grade, to see their friends!

    And YeS - your son has the right idea about learning in school and playing at home - how much stamina is a kid that age supposed to have? I might make sure that he works at his readiness level 20 minutes a day, but the best thing to do is fix the situation.

    Advice - forget what you read in the book - it's not correct. Read up on the Iowa acceleration scale manual instead (about 30$) - then go to his teacher and let her know about the griping and stomache aches and show her the work he is doing at home. You are correct that IQ scores don't mean XXXX to teachers - so don't show them unless asked. Play dumb and ask the teacher what can be done to help out with this emotional challenge. Of course you can't say that DS says school is boring, but you can say he is very very unhappy, and that this upsets you.

    Do you see where this is going?

    Meanwhile - make sure sure sure that he can 'do' everything that 3rd grades at your school can do - such as times tables, whatever, so that when the teachers evaluate him, they can see in terms that they understand that he is 'advanced.' Remember - His great insights into the causes of the American Revolution won't impress them - the 7's times table will impress them.

    Basically, you are doing everything right, and it's still not working - so his behavior is telling you that something different has to happen....subject acceleration, grade skip, or homeschool are the most common things that work in this situation.

    Your kid does deserve what he's asking for.
    Best Wishes,
    Grinity
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #13127 - 04/05/08 04:42 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Grinity]
    squirt Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/31/08
    Posts: 323
    Loc: Back in Texas, alas!
    Dottie, did you mean me? YOU were extremely helpful to me in our first thread. I hope I didn't do something wrong. Did you email me? How would I know? I didn't even know one could do that.

    Sorry, I keep getting off topic. Somebody throw a shoe at me when needed.

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    #13130 - 04/05/08 04:59 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dottie]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    Waving HIIIIII to you Dottie! LOL. I wondered if you were here. Yes, as you can see, I'm still dazed&confused. Not that I didn't believe you lol but needed to chat w/ others and turn this over in my brain. I guess what throws me is that the psych said he should do fine in regular classroom but clearly he is not. But professionals have been wrong before....

    grin


    Edited by Dazed&Confuzed (04/05/08 05:25 PM)

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    #13133 - 04/05/08 05:28 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dazed&Confuzed]
    kimck Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/20/07
    Posts: 1134
    I really feel your pain! This sounds so much like my DS7 (1st grade). He learns nothing at school, and really prefers to play at the end of the day. And complains about it. The social justice guy in him doesn't think this is right.

    He has not had a full assessment but hit the ceiling scores on the NNAT. I have no idea what this would look like on a WISC or SB for him, but I do know he is miserable in the regular classroom even with a couple hours enrichment a week. And is working years ahead in reading and at least conceptually in math (he's just learning notation and showing work in math).

    I think that is part of the reason we haven't forked over the bucks for the full assessment. We know he is not a fit in a regular classroom without some major accommodations. I think if you're gut is telling you he needs additional challenge or change, you should listen to it. It's one thing to complain once or twice a month. It's another to do it daily or almost daily. We are most likely homeschooling next year.

    And I know lots of kids in my son's class who aren't thrilled with school on all ends of the spectrum. I hope their parents are looking out for them! Especially if they are also not learning anything.

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    #13134 - 04/05/08 05:35 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: kimck]
    crisc Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/12/07
    Posts: 485
    Loc: New England
    I was recently told by a friend that is a teacher that an IQ in the 140-150 range was fine for a regular school, regular classroom. It was the scores aboue 180 that you had to worry about.

    I tried to provide some education about the ceilings of today's tests being only 160 but she just couldn't see past the old SB-LM scores and the fact that some kids had higher numbers attached as their IQ scores. I gave up. I know that my son is not going to be happy in a normal class. We've already moved him from a preschool to a Montessori school and he still doesn't blend in that environment. I do think a lot depends on each individual child.


    Edited by crisc (04/05/08 05:36 PM)
    Edit Reason: typos galore
    _________________________
    Crisc

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    #13138 - 04/05/08 06:26 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: gratified3]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    Quote:
    This ultimately led me to the conclusion that the score doesn't help much. Once you're past 140, it really becomes an individual fit issue depending on personality and resources available.


    Ah yes, you summed it up nicely for me.

    Thanks everyone for your responses, it was very helpful. I guess my next order of business is to figure out what to ask for. There is not much time left in school so I'm not sure if it's worth it now or wait until next year. DH and I are discussing HSing him. This summer we might do a trial run and see how it goes and then ask DS if it's even something he'd want.

    OH yes, the book "Parenting Gifted Kids" has a 2006 copyright but that doesn't mean the info is not out of date.

    I never thought much about IQ but also never realized it is such a murky area. I think things are further muddied with the new tests seemingly to test lower (that is what the psych said). It's hard to determine what it all means.

    I do plan to get the IOWA acceleration scale book and see how it comes out for both of my boys. I have one entering K in the Fall.

    thanks again everyone for making me feel welcome!

    Still Dazed&Confused but perhaps a little less so....

    (and special thanks to Dottie wink )

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    #13139 - 04/05/08 07:32 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dazed&Confuzed]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Good plan!
    I would ask for accomidation ASAP, because
    1) stomachaches
    2) constant complaints in an easygoing kid
    3) not much new seems to get done during spring fever, which lasts from about now until the end of the school year, so now is a great time for subject accelerations to test the waters for next year...a full skip if you can get one.

    How is the handwriting and written production?

    Grinity
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #13143 - 04/05/08 07:53 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Grinity]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    Yes, a couple of months is a lifetime for a child. I wouldn't let the school coast for your child if you can avoid it.
    _________________________
    Kriston

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    #13165 - 04/06/08 05:32 AM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Kriston]
    Lorel Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/22/07
    Posts: 970
    Loc: New England
    I absolutely think you need to consider each case individually. If your child is unhappy in school, then something needs to change.

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    #13172 - 04/06/08 06:52 AM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Grinity]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    Handwriting is OK. I've asked Teacher about writing and she said she does great and all that she has to do for him is to walk by his desk and say "Oh I can't wait to read more about X." We have PT conference in 1.5weeks so I'm trying to formulate a plan......

    You are so right in that 3months is a lifetime for a child. I've mentioned things such as pretesting and going to 3rd grade for math and she just looked at me like I was speaking in a foreign language. I think the curriculum doesn't easily allow them to see what DS is capable of. I also call him my concept kid. He loves making that next leap to a concept, but always doesn't want to do the nitty gritty to become fully proficient in that area.

    I think a previous poster is right in that I need to help him be proficient in those areas such as time tables that the school looks for. His knowledge of WWII won't help much.

    I should clarify that I"ve been in contact with the teacher a number of times. She did a few accommodations for him which helped a little. She sends home challenge math problems and if its a separate sheet, he doesn't have to do the regular homework. He also spends time reading rather than sitting in on some of the math lessons. He was working on an independent research project w/ another science-talented boy from another class but that fell through due to scheduling conflicts. One time she gave him a battery, insulators, conductors and he had to make a circuit and determine which of the items were insul and cond. HE LOVED IT. He then gave a presentation to the class and she said he was a natural. OK< next on my list, think of something else like that for him to suggest to the teacher. She asked me for advice so I need to have some ideas ready.

    Thanks for helping me to work through my thoughts!

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    #13227 - 04/07/08 09:22 AM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dazed&Confuzed]
    pinkpanther Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/19/07
    Posts: 175
    I agree with what the others have said here, but I just wanted to let you know that I sympathize and that we've been going through the same thing with our 3rd grader (stomach aches, headaches, hating school). She has not had a full IQ test, but her WASI FSIQ was 134 with a VIQ of 140 and PIQ of 119. I originally thought the school should be able to serve her in the regular classroom, but it's obviously not happening. I agree with the others that kids are different, and how they respond to the regular classroom depends on many factors. You are doing the right thing by questioning this.

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    #13229 - 04/07/08 09:46 AM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: pinkpanther]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    Pinkpanther...sorry you're in the same situation. The GT teacher said that our district doesn't believe in acceleration (not sure if she meant only grade or also subject) only enrichment. sigh....

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    #13234 - 04/07/08 10:46 AM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: gratified3]
    pinkpanther Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/19/07
    Posts: 175
    I agree with gratified. DD did not qualify for gifted services because she's highly verbal and the school uses a nonverbal screener. When we questioned it, we were pretty much told that it's just the way it's done. However, we have pursued it further, and now we've been told that yes, they can give DD a more verbal screener. Sometimes, you just have to be persistent, especially when the child is displaying physical/emotional distress.

    Good luck!

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    #13247 - 04/07/08 11:52 AM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: pinkpanther]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    I think it's the "Say no and maybe they'll go away" philosophy of dealing with problems.

    I once worked at a company with a computer specialist whose first response to any request was ALWAYS, "It can't be done." The more annoyed you were by that answer, the more likely you were to get a "Well, okay" instead. I think he learned that saying "no" lightened his workload, so he just issued a blanket "no" without even listening to the question. A good bit of the time, people just accepted it.

    I suspect the exact same thing is going on in a lot of schools...
    _________________________
    Kriston

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    #13257 - 04/07/08 12:33 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Kriston]
    squirt Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/31/08
    Posts: 323
    Loc: Back in Texas, alas!
    Gratified,

    How did you go about getting the school to do all that? I don't think our school even does above-grade level testing. Do those tests have names, or are they individual, like the Credit By Exam? I'd love to hear how you got them to cooperate. Or, if you've posted that somewhere, you could point me there.

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    #13273 - 04/07/08 01:54 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: squirt]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    I think after achievement testing, assuming he scores well, we'll have more of a leg to stand on. We're also considering HSing.

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    #13275 - 04/07/08 04:27 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: gratified3]
    Dazed&Confuzed Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/05/08
    Posts: 1815
    I'm just so non-confrontational...the thought of all that just makes me ill. 8-(

    I'm glad it worked out well for you in the end!!! 8-)

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    #13276 - 04/07/08 04:39 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Dazed&Confuzed]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    My philosophy is that you either have to become one of "those" parents or you wind up with one of "those" kids, with behavior problems, depression, etc.

    I hate advocacy, too, and that was a big factor in our decision to home school. I saw the fight we were in for, and given the teeny rewards we'd get for all our trouble, it just wasn't worth it to us. Our only option was really to push for a grade skip (or two!), and we just weren't sold on grade-skipping at the time. (I'm much more in favor of it now, though I think sports would become difficult for DS if we went that route. I'm not wild about that aspect of skipping even now.) Anything else would have required a HUGE fight for no real benefit.

    Anyway, with kids like these, I really think you either advocate or go to a different educational provider, like a GT school (where you will probably still have to advocate somewhat) or home schooling. Those are really your only other options.
    _________________________
    Kriston

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    #13278 - 04/07/08 04:54 PM Re: GIfted IQ ranges in regular classroom? [Re: Kriston]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3296
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Kriston
    I'm not wild about that aspect of skipping even now.) Anything else would have required a HUGE fight for no real benefit.

    Anyway, with kids like these, I really think you either advocate or go to a different educational provider, like a GT school (where you will probably still have to advocate somewhat) or home schooling. Those are really your only other options.


    This is so-o-o true. Grade skipping doesn't really address the real need anyway, given that some kids would be, say, +2 in some subjects and +5 in others and maybe at grade level in some areas.

    We need ability grouping. We live in a technological society and we need to allow the people who are able to move ahead to do so. A big chunk of any given age-level class could move at a faster pace (some faster than others). We're damaging our kids, their futures, and our future economy by assuming that they're just fine! Sorry to sound like a broken record.

    My kids will start at an ability-grouped K-6 school next year. I'll report on how well it works. Then we'll probably transfer to an ability-grouped 6-12 school later.

    Some people may accuse parents of accelerated kids of robbing them of childhood or some such rubbish. We've talked with our eldest (just turned 8) once or twice about finishing high school early and how he'll be able to explore the world for a couple years before going away to college. So, this means, a local community college, internships, part-time jobs, etc. Maybe he'll get involved in community theatre for all I know. We're just trying to keep them all stimulated.

    Val

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