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Another point to consider: the alternative to encouraging more participation in STEM by American women is to import male talent from places like China, India, and Brazil.

I want to change the topic from women in STEM to STEM in general. STEM stands for Science, Technology, Engineering, and Medicine. What evidence is there for a shortage of college graduates with science degrees? Looking at the data in

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/the-college-majors-that-do-best-in-the-job-market/
The College Majors That Do Best in the Job Market
By CATHERINE RAMPELL
New York Times
May 19, 2011

"physical science" majors had middling job placement and low average salaries -- $21K for jobs that require a B.A. or B.S.
Maybe this number is depressed by science majors earning low salaries as graduate students / teaching assistants. The numbers look better for the other parts of "TEM".

Looking at compensation vs. required effort and ability, physical science majors don't look good. If someone wants to study physics or chemistry because he or she is fascinated by the subject, fine, but such students should not be misled about their career prospects by talk of a general "STEM" shortage.

http://press.manpower.com/press/201...ind-the-right-talent-for-open-positions/

Looking at the ten hardest to fill positions, you have the E in STEM at number 3, and the T at number 6. It's also worth pointing out the non-degree positions at 1 and 10 are generally considered boy jobs and are much more science-based today than your grandfather's factory job was (well, 10 is still the same, but it's also still machining).

STEM workers are typically imported via the H1B visa program, which is capped at 85,000 visas a year (with certain employers exempt from the cap). Here's a listing of job fields for H1B visa holders: http://www.h1base.com/content/h1boccupations

Did you miss the context of my statement? It was a comment on this:


This does not appear to be restricted in scope to STEM topics. With so many people lamenting the lack of positive same-sex role models for girls in one particular sector of industry, I felt compelled to point out that boys are at an even greater risk for being without significant interaction with positive same-sex role models in their lives. I did not mean to imply as you inferred that "viewing women in other powerful roles of leadership and in technology is not necessary or needed." However, it's clear to me that since finding success in STEM fields requires solid basic education, anyone who benefits from a mentor or role model who pushes them to obtain those basics finds themselves in a better position to pursue STEM fields than someone who does not.

Speaking generally about the topic now:

There are a lot of things that affect what children expect from themselves. I think the biggest contributor is what their parents expect from them. My daughter is 3, and I'm already convinced that she has great potential. Thus I will have high expectations for her, and hope to influence her to have high expectations for herself. There are many factors that contribute to children of both sexes lowering their expectations. They can be lazy. They can desire to fit in with their peers in a general sense. They can desire to spend time with particular individuals incapable of pursuing (or unwilling to pursue) intellectual topics at a challenging level. I don't think that anti-intellectualism hits girls any harder than it hits boys, but that has no bearing on my objection to this program.

In case anyone has come to the wrong conclusion: I am all for NASA employees mentoring middle school girls, and doing so in the most effective way possible, which probably necessitates trying to pair girls with female mentors. I can easily see myself trying to take advantage of such a program in a few years. If anyone tries to imply that I'm against this, then they are out of their minds, and I wont be responding to them.

My objection is solely to the fact that this program has been set up to cater exclusively to girls. While I'm excited about the positive effects that mentorship in STEM fields can have on girls, I'm also excited about the positive effects it can have on boys. I don't lament a missed opportunity for a girl any more than I lament a missed opportunity for a boy.

Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. What about encouraging more STEM participation by Americans in general? What about importing female talent from outside America's borders?

Also, do you mean to imply that American female engineers should be preferred over engineers from outside our borders? If so, why?

dad22 - to each his own. At this point, the conversation isn't going to bring better understanding or a more open dialogue, so I'm thinking for myself it is time to bow out.

I come here for support, advice, and help for my very challenging son and am grateful for all I've received from this community. I don't want to mar it with acerbic debate that isn't going to result in opening your eyes to what I'm trying to point out. I respect your right to believe as you do, but I don't agree with the opinions expressed, it is nice we both can agree that more opportunities are usually a good thing.

I prefer to use logic rather than discrimination to counter illogical conclusions. I hope others will do the same.


Are you seriously trying to convince me to keep my opinions to myself? It's absolutely appropriate for anyone to offer their opinions on this topic. You really have some nerve. Additionally, I have not been tearing down any organizations. I have simply been stating that I find one particular element of one particular program to be inappropriate: the exclusion of boys (officially or by implication) from NASA GIRLS.

As far as my involvement, I have mentioned that I sometimes recruit for an engineering firm. I discuss career options with male and female college students on a somewhat regular basis. I certainly make sure that everyone feels welcome. My company also offers an internship program, for which I perform interviews and mentoring. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to discuss who has been accepted into that program, however. I have a great interest in FIRST as well (my company sponsored a local high school robotics team), though volunteering doesn't really fit into my schedule at the moment, with two preschool children to take care of at home.

I've tried my best to not post anything further and stay non-involved on this post but fwiw, I want to add one final thought from me - and it's just that, one thought from me.


I agree that if we as parents have high expectations of our children, they will have high expectations of themselves. But one thing that we can't alter as parents is how the world sees our children, and that too will have an impact on our kids.

As an example, two of my children are Asian, and I'm Caucasian. I do not for one minute believe that color and/or race defines a person. I have no preconceived notions about the ability or lack of ability or where a person fits into society or the world or whatever based on the color of their skin. I believe that by sharing my values and showing by example that I *hope* my children will also believe the same things. HOWEVER, I can't take away beliefs from other people outside of our family who believe differently, and my children are going to (and already have) run into people who either inadvertently or directly let them know they are being judged based on the color of their skin and their ethnicity.

Taking that concept back into the talk about girls and STEM careers - my dh and I are both career STEM folks with STEM degrees who are passionate about math and science, so my kids have role models at home. But when they visit our offices... they are going to see mostly men. At school the secondary science teachers are mostly men. Most of the women adults they meet aren't scientists. No matter what I teach my girls at home the outside world at large is sending them a different message, and I have seen the impact in my two dds at very young ages.

So that's the last of my 2 cents.

To the OP, thanks for posting the link! I am going to sign my dd up. I am going to look for something similar for my ds. It's a great concept, and I'm glad the program is out there for girls

polarbear

Yes, it's much, much worse for girls. Why did Larry Summers feel comfortable making the remarks he did? You don't think that sends a message? Why do men make dumb blonde jokes? Etc.

Obviously, things today are better than they were when Marie Curie could only work in the lab because her husband hired her as his technician. But there is still a huge segment of the population in the United States that tells women to be quietly submissive to their husbands and to stay home and raise kids. It's not just men doing this; women contribute to the problem, too (e.g. Mommy Wars).

Just because YOU and your daughter aren't in that demographic doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect a lot of girls. These girls desperately need to interact with women who aren't being quietly submissive. Not just see them on TV. INTERACT with them.

I'm curious about how many girls were on that HS robotics team? Was it pretty equal? Because if not, I wonder what's being lost without the girl-brains being part of the equation?

And when you're recruiting, do an equal number of men and women apply?