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    Joined: Aug 2010
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    Boys get the message that their pursuits in STEM fields are supported at every level. Providing opportunities for under-represented groups does not by default send the message that over-represented groups are not valued.

    Here are some messages I've received as a founder of a STEM field startup.

    From an Angel Investor presentation: "You don't have even one token male on your board? We would feel more comfortable with your proposition if there was."

    From a reporter: so really it's your husband who's helping you out and doing the hard stuff. (husband is not even on my board).

    I could go on.

    Boys will likely get the message that their parents filter down to them. We have the opportunity to help our kids form opinions by providing reference through our own attitudes.

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    When my daughter is going to science and even nature-related things, even LEGO events, there are rarely more than maybe 1 or 2 girls, for say, every 10 boys. Wherever I go the boys seem to be quite nicely represented.

    Boys are allowed in the program, so...what's the problem? They aren't being shut out or excluded. Maybe the red carpet isn't being rolled out exactly for them? Hasn't the red carpet been rolled out for them for enough thousands of years in these types of endeavors to satisfy the boys or those parents of boys who have an issue with those who specifically are encouraging girls?


    bzylzy #128736 05/02/12 10:48 AM
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    Originally Posted by bzylzy
    Boys are allowed in the program, so...what's the problem? They aren't being shut out or excluded. Maybe the red carpet isn't being rolled out exactly for them? Hasn't the red carpet been rolled out for them for enough thousands of years in these types of endeavors to satisfy the boys or those parents of boys who have an issue with those who specifically are encouraging girls?

    The people who made the web site have deliberately made it seem that the program is only for girls, when in reality boys are eligible. That is wrong, and I wonder if it is illegal. Past discrimination against females does NOT justify current discrimination against males.


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    The people who made the web site have deliberately made it seem that the program is only for girls, when in reality boys are eligible. That is wrong, and I wonder if it is illegal. Past discrimination against females does NOT justify current discrimination against males.

    Sorry, Bostonian, but I really disagree with this. By this premise, no school should be allowed to have culturally-focused clubs, the NAACP should not be allowed to state that they're promoting the advancement of a specific race, and that magnet schools cannot focus on students who have unique skills like, say, being gifted, because it discriminates against kids who are, say, not gifted but would like to be included anyway.

    bzylzy #128740 05/02/12 11:12 AM
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    Originally Posted by bzylzy
    When my daughter is going to science and even nature-related things, even LEGO events, there are rarely more than maybe 1 or 2 girls, for say, every 10 boys. Wherever I go the boys seem to be quite nicely represented.

    Boys are allowed in the program, so...what's the problem? They aren't being shut out or excluded. Maybe the red carpet isn't being rolled out exactly for them? Hasn't the red carpet been rolled out for them for enough thousands of years in these types of endeavors to satisfy the boys or those parents of boys who have an issue with those who specifically are encouraging girls?

    Indeed. Same goes for chess camp (10% girls).

    I took my DD9 to a public astrophysics lecture last week. I pointed out to her that there were a lot of kids in the audience. She responded, "yeah, but they're all boys."

    At the age of 9, she's already learned that this is a field for boys. She's learned this from every direction, including her classroom teacher, the gifted teacher, the TV programs she watches, and what her friends and her friends' parents tell her.

    If NASA wants to develop talent in the STEM fields, it needs to specifically target the 50% of the population with the talent that has been told repeatedly since early in life that they don't really belong. The data show the power of mentoring girls and young women with female role models.

    And yes, it's legal and right.

    ...and I'm taking her to next week's astrophysics lecture as well. Sadly, it will be given by another man.

    Last edited by geofizz; 05/02/12 11:16 AM.
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    My best advice to those who don't approve of this NASA program or the way it's being represented: It's a free country. Contact them directly and tell them. And use your real name.

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    If you read the materials, this is a very small pilot program. They will select 15-20 girls. I doubt that the 15-20 professional women volunteering their time would be pleased if they ended up with boys. If you want something to include boys, I would ask them to expand their program next year.

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    I have two DDs and am in a STEM field. I agree with geofizz and master_of_none. I have two DDs and my older one in particular prefers to discuss things, etc. My younger DD and I probably do fine with show and do, but prefer the other way as well. My girls are lucky since it seems (thinking about it now) many of their subjects including science and math are taught using group dynamics.

    FWIW, the ratios in my work group are similar to what is described above.

    I sent the link on to my DDs Middle school math teacher and she hopes to get it posted on the MS website as an opportunity.

    ABQMom #128756 05/02/12 01:16 PM
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    Originally Posted by ABQMom
    Originally Posted by DAD22
    I can't say I support the message that the brothers of the girls partaking of the program will be receiving.

    What message will the brothers be receiving?

    The message is that from the perspective of the people implementing the program, a boy's interest in this area is so common that it doesn't hold as much value as the interest of a girl, and isn't worthy of patronage, regardless of level-of-interest or aptitude.

    Have any of you put yourself in the shoes of a boy who shares a love of space with his sister of similar age? Sure, the program will begrudgingly accept him, but the intent to exclude boys is clear. Why should he be made to feel unwelcome in pursuing his interests? Isn't that exactly the type of feeling that the program advocates want to alleviate, except they apparently only want to alleviate that feeling for girls?

    I am an engineer who grew up as a talented math student, and I am somewhat accustomed to the double standard. There was always extra excitement surrounding a girl who was good at math (and awards for best performing girl at public school math competitions... sorry to the dozens of guys who outscored her, you're the wrong sex). Now I am involved in recruitment and hiring, and the excitement carries on. Engineering firms compete to bring in female engineers in a way that they don't compete for males. Maybe this is a complete reversal from decades past. If so, I think we should damp the oscillation instead of driving it.

    I don't advocate sexual discrimination, but I do recognize it as a right for private clubs. I didn't see information on the website about funding for NASA G.I.R.L.S. and I'm not going to look into whether or not a legal case could be made against it. I will simply say that I'm against it, and should the time come, I don't look forward to making the decision about whether or not to let my daughter partake in something she would love that isn't open to her brother, who may love it equally. Seeing as how I'm an engineer, my children wont be lacking STEM mentorship either way.

    I will take it upon myself to make sure that my daughter never feels that STEM topics are inappropriate for her, while advocating for every facet of her education, math and science included.


    Last edited by DAD22; 05/02/12 01:27 PM. Reason: clarity
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    I don't think government programs should exclude males or females unless there is a strong rationale.

    There is a shortage of qualified STEM workers in this country, and addressing that shortage is important to our future economy and national security. Women happen to be underrepresented in STEM, and also happen to make up over half the population. Boys have more than enough role models and mentors available if they want to pursue STEM fields. Girls have Marie Curie and... ?

    The rationale of making female mentors available to girls is plenty strong.

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