Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional All the other stories sucked.

That is what my son wrote for an assignment this morning, according to the email I received from his teacher.

The assignment asked out of the three myths the students read that week, which was their favorite. She sent me his responses which were obviously not appropriate.

I'm finding the older my 12 year old gets, the more he seems completely surprised when his "honesty" offends others. Before I sit him down AGAIN and let him know that his responses were not only inappropriate but hurtful, I'm wondering what some of you have done to help your kids learn to filter. My older two did not have this issue, so I'm at a loss as to what else to try.

According to his teacher, this was his response: "My favorite story was "X" because it was the shortest. I hate reading stories I had read before. The storie was one I heard before. All the other stories sucked".

I don't have a kid that age so I don't have parental advice but I got in trouble in school a few times for similar responses.

Changing the tone probably won't happen easily. Changing the wording so that he says the same thing in a way that doesn't get him in trouble might be a easier goal.

I actually enjoyed the extra challenge of irritating teachers I didn't like but doing it in a way for which I couldn't really get in trouble.

Mmm... are you really saying that your DS, at 12 (and without ASD, right?) did not understand that the teacher would be hurt by his writing this? If my 8yo wrote that - in fact, if he'd written it two years ago - it would mean he was angry with her and was showing it inappropriately. I wouldn't be tackling it by explaining why the teacher was hurt, I'd be explaining why this wasn't a good way to get things improved.

I think it's important to understand which it is - lack of awareness of the potential offence, or deliberate offence, with lack of awareness of the consequences of offending someone, perhaps. The two need different reactions.

I like what ColinsMum said about figuring out where he was coming from. Could just be sick and tired of the whole darn scene but didn't make a good choice as to how to communicate that.

I'd make him do a written apology and rewrite it properly, then deal with the issue that made him do it and try to work on him developing different ways to express this (this is based on him being able to distinguish, which I don't know about him).

When my sister was that age she was like that (though we didn't use the word "sucked", and its very, very common now) someone said to her "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar!" and she scornfully replied "And why would I want to catch flies?"

Now of course she's the queen of the scout troop/mommy group/religious ed etc. and can schmooze and navigate with the best of them...she learned as she went along and matured.

I'm no help but I did have to have a talk with my DD11 and tell her that under no circumstances could she stand up and talk about her alphabet soup powerpoint and say "D is for Dumb"......even though we both felt that it was appropriate. I agree that a talk about the challenge of writing the same thing nicely would be appropriate . Good Luck.

I am worried even more about having a kid in school now.
master of none - I would give a A for that response. It was brief and it answered the question. I just think the assignment is too open to get picky about responses. Was there a word requirement that should have been met?

I agree the word choice of "hate" and "sucks" are bad. Otherwise, if the teacher had something in mind it could have been in the instructions.

I guess I would point out if he is turning in something for a grade he needs to pander to / be respectful to the grader.

You know, I hope nobody is offended by this, but I think "they sucked" is pretty funny, and gets to the point--maybe he'll be a comedian when he grows up.
But I agree he needs to have an appropriate response in the classroom.


There was a thread on this site somewhere awhile ago about what kids can do to deal with boredom while still appearing to behave appropriately in the classroom. This seems like a similar problem IMO of having to find covert ways of not going nuts when you have to do something you don't want to do. So while I never tried to covertly irritate teachers, perhaps some kids might enjoy this approach, or just doing the chore differently--for example, using 'big words' to say the same thing while not getting in trouble (with the irritating the teacher thing being a possible side bonus, depending on the kid and the teacher, ha). This could also be a good vocabulary-building exercise as well as a teaching opportunity--why did the stories suck? Did the villains prevail? Was the hero improbably pure of heart? Did the gods do irrational things that one might get in trouble for if one were a kid at that very school? It could be really fun.

Yes, ColinsMum, that is what I'm saying. In the 12 years I've known him, my son hasn't to my knowledge ever intentionally hurt someone else physically or emotionally. He cares deeply about injustices and even turned in his best friends in first grade for making fun of a little girl who was crying.

I think you hit it on the head, master of none, with the insight that "he answers the question literally and cannot lie or embellish".

So I can make rules. I can tell him "You are not allowed to use the word suck. You are not allowed to use the word hate." He will abide by those rules. But the next time, he will likely be just as blunt but just use different words.

I don't believe we have any issues with ASD. He has a quick sense of humor, is very popular at school (despite his being blunt), and doesn't have a lot of the other markers.

And this will be exactly what he tells me about the assignment. That she didn't ask him to make it a certain number of words, that it had to be positive, etc. If it wasn't defined, he assumes he can approach it as he wishes.

And don't worry about having kids - you'll know their number and how to deal with it better than I do, because I was the play to the teacher for an A kind of kid.

Actually that reminds me of a joke:
Two women (your favorite identifiers here) were conversing (your location)
The first woman said, "When my first child was born, my husband built this beautiful mansion for me."
The second woman commented, "Well, isn't that nice."
The first woman continued "When my second child was born, my husband bought me that fine Cadillac automobile you see parked in the drive."
Again, the comment, "Well, isn't that nice."
The first boasted, "Then, when my third child was born, my husband bought me this exquisite diamond bracelet."
Yet again, the second commented "Well, isn't that nice."
The first woman then asked her companion, "What did your husband buy for you when you had your first child?"
The second woman replied, "My husband sent me to charm school."
"Charm school!" the first woman cried "land sakes, child, what on Earth for?"
The second woman responded, "So that instead of saying 'who gives a flying fuc%, I learned to say 'Well, isn't that nice!"

This is very poor writing. My daughter has answered this question negatively, but in proper writing format.

My husband was asked to write an essay about his town. He wrote it on the color brown. It brought a good grade and was witty. And he was right, everything in the town is brown.

Of course it's poor writing. He has severe dysgraphia. This is as good as it gets when he has to write it out by hand. He can give his subplots more subplots when he's dictating. I wasn't so concerned with the quality of writing as to how to help him learn that he can't be rude even when what he is saying is the truth.

Or take the consequences of not doing so. I'm kind of with Dbat, in that I thought it was funny (and not an entirely unanticipatable result of the assignment), and wouldn't be inclined to dole out any home consequences beyond an offer to suggest less-offensive-to-the-teacher wording.

That said, I have a really bad attitude towards school. I was a mostly-good kid when I was in school, despite it being stupid and boring, but I just have no tolerance for that same stupid and boring now, even though it's not being inflicted directly upon me.

ABQMom - that's fine, just tell him the new 'Mom's Rules of School' that are
1) Be positive
2) Make any writing assignment twice as long as the kid next to you
3) Find something to like

Then tell him the 'charm school' joke and promise to teach him some new bad words if he can show that he doesn't need to attend charm school himself. If he complains that he doesn't like the rules, or that they 'shouldn't be that way' be sure to remind him that he is a kid and sometimes just has to obey, because he is a kid.

If you can do all that, I think he'll be a happier person, and it will be a great example for me of 'I can give advice that I didn't myself follow!'

Smiles,
Grinity

ABQmom - I can soooooo so just imagine my ds writing something similar. He's been very tempted on a few of the "explain your work" math problems he's had lately...

FWIW, my ds loves humor (for anyone reading who doesn't know about him, he's severely dysgraphic and has an expressive language disorder impacting written expression)... one thing that struck me about this situation was perhaps you could sit down with your ds, acknowledge that he has a valid point (at least, imo he does :D), and explain why a filter is needed on the language... then the two of you could re-write his response with a twist of humor - take out the "sucks" and whatever other inappropriate language there is, but let him write out what he really felt, just show him that you can do it more successfully with a bit of nice humor.

Since I don't know his current teacher, I don't know how she would have reacted to that... but I think that for some teachers, particularly if they understand the writing challenges that dysgraphic kids have, the humorous response would be acceptable. I only suggest that because I know, for my ds, it's tough enough to write anything even when he's motivated. When he doesn't understand the point of an assignment it's just a *really* really tough thing to do! Humor helps.. if nothing else.. it at least helps ds feel a little better about it

Best wishes,

polarbear

When asked to "explain his answer" on simple (one operation) math problems DS8 (2nd grade) is now defaulting to one sentence of "because I know my math facts".

We blame the AS.

"And this will be exactly what he tells me about the assignment. That she didn't ask him to make it a certain number of words, that it had to be positive, etc. If it wasn't defined, he assumes he can approach it as he wishes."

That is awesome! Some people spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and years in law school to learn to think that way. He is doing it at twelve. Bravo!

I worry about having a kid in school because I look at these situations like your son which is obviously not acceptable to the teacher. I would have shot back the following response:

Thank you for bringing my son's response to your assignment to my attention. I am assuming you are taking issue with his use of the words "hate" and "sucks" as well as the negative tone of his response. I will discuss these issues with him. However, to avoid similar situations in the future, perhaps you could send me a list of words you find objectionable. Unfortunately, my son has been exposed to some colorful language in his lifetime. I would hate for this to happen again.
As for the issue of tone, I think more detailed instructions would prevent misunderstandings in the future. I think something like this might have gotten you the results you were after: Please write about your favorite myth using at least 250 words and in a manner that makes me feel good about my curriculum choices.
Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

Anyway, apparently my junior high past time is alive and well.

Bazinga! At least the teacher would know where the kid gets his verbal agression from.

But the above is still too abstract for some kids at that age.

Truth is that the assignment is perfectly worded for kids in the 'meaty middle.' For little Gifties it often works well to focus less on 'how I felt' and more on 'compare and contrast the main characters in two of the myths we read, defend your conslusions with passages from the text.' When my son did like a piece of literature, the reasons were well too sophisticated for an elementary school kid to articulate.

And if they aren't too sophisticated for the child, they may well be from lower elemantary teacher - if memory serves,my son earned a big red question mark for this spelling sentence:
Breaks: When the Character Steve in Blue's Clues talks directly to the audience, he breaks the third wall.

Good luck,
Grinity

UPDATE:

He came up very upset and wanting to talk to me about the unfair thing that happened at school today. He added some information I hadn't hear - he also got points taken off of an assignment in his social studies class, since the assignment is to follow the laws of chivalry (which they're studying) at school and at home. Since his essay wasn't "chivalrous", he lost points on that assignment as well.

His reasoning for why he was upset:

The assignment did not ask for three positive things about one of the stories. It asked his opinion and why he had that opinion, and he did exactly that. He said if he liked the story because it was the shortest, how should he know he was supposed to lie and say something the teacher would like better?

He also did not understand why he could not use the words hate or sucked in his essay. He said he's heard the teacher use them, heard other teachers use them, and hears them all the time at school.

And so I tried to explain the difference between casual conversations and written essays and how some things aren't appropriate in one setting that are okay in another.

His response? Then can somebody please give me a list of what is not ok to write? How in the world am I supposed to know?

Hmm. I do have a VERY blunt DD8 whom we suspect may be ASD (and this is one reason why) but I don't think she would answer an assignment this way. She would have a sense that this was not what the teacher wanted to hear and would at least pretty it up and lengthen it. However, she is a talented and enthusiastic writer so that may change things a bit.

I did want to post this, though, because I still think it's hilarious. (This was DD's work from first grade and a rare instance where she lost a point.)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/808/answercut.jpg

Okay, in all honesty, I would have written the above e-mail but then only sent this part:

Thank you for bringing my son's response to your assignment to my attention. I am assuming you are taking issue with his use of the words "hate" and "sucks" as well as the negative tone of his response. I will discuss these issues with him.

I think just having been that kid, I am defensive.

Another trick I did when I was his age was I picked out a kid I knew the teacher liked more than me and wrote it how I thought that person would respond. There was still a fair bit of sarcasm but once again it was not something for which I could really be penalized.

A teacher is supposed to provide a comprehensive list of "4-letter" words? I think that's absurd. The obvious rule is that students are not to make colloquial sexual references in school assignments, and even a non-gifted child should know that.

Actually, Bostonian, my son had no idea until today that it was considered a bad word. He is twelve, has no reference points in his own history that would make him think that it was a colloquial reference to anything other than just being icky. My generation considered that word to be a borderline cuss word, but I can promise you that his generation does not. It is the same a yuck or ick or bummer.

Words he knows to be cuss words would never show up in a class assignment.

The teacher was just as offended that he used the word hate. He does not understand why he can't express a strong emotion about something and why the words "very strongly dislike to the point of abhorrence" would be ok but not hate.

ABQ, my DS is this kind of a thinker too.


The big disconnect here is that he doesn't understand what teachers expect. There is a pretty narrow range of expectation; they can be vague in giving assignments because they assume the kids all know what they expect. But your DS clearly doesn't.

You can start by briefing your DS on what teachers want and expect to read. That you can look at the size of the space they gave you on the paper, and judge how much to write (fill most of the space). That if they ask an opinion question, they still want it expressed in formal language, and in paragraphs, and with examples from the stories. If the opinion can't be expressed using examples from the stories and civil languge, pick a different opinion. And so forth. This will take practice.

The larger question (knowing what's expected by others in all circumstances) is addressed pretty well in Michelle Garcia Winner's "Think social" curriculum-- she explicitly teaches that if you do things that others aren't expecting, they get upset, and she literally goes through and tells the student what's "expected" and "unexpected" behavior in particular situations.

I feel for you and him. It's a lot of work to sort this stuff out...

DeeDee

With my kids, I have a general rule about knocking other people's work. If they say they hate something, I remind them they don't prefer it and maybe ask what do you prefer. In regards to an assignment, they have written negative remarks about a book or story. My expectation for them is that they do so thoughtfully. I think it actually helps develop their critical thinking skills. We have all read a book we didn't like or saw a painting that we thought was not very good. It's an opinion. I try to talk to them about valuing someone else's work even when they don't enjoy it. I remind them not everyone loves all of their work but it still has value. I have them find a positive in the work maybe a well developed character or writing style. I think it's ok for him to say he didn't enjoy the stories, but maybe write about the positives he can see despite not enjoying them.

I think the filter is something they learn over time if they struggle with it. My dd was born with a filter and her brothers not so much:0 I use every situation as an example of a filtering. It's an important skill for them to be direct and yet mindful of their words. Life is tough if you don't know when to filter yourself. It's hard for GT kids sometimes to learn just because they can work at adult levels doesn't mean they can say anything to adults. I try hard to be mindful of what I say and sometimes I use that as an example for them. I'll tell them after a situation was over... Wow that was hard! I want to say XYz but I needed to say ABC. I'll talk about how it was the respectful thing to do or why the outcome of XYZ would have been negative, etc.

I have 3 skillful negotiators in my house. When they try to tell me it follows the rule or expectations because... I will shut down the loophole reasons. Especially, when the intention or expectation was understood by them. If he understands what the teacher is looking for then, I would expect him to do it to the best of his ability. Given the dysgraphia the answer will be shorter. If she has a problem with the shorter answer, I would have a meeting with her about reasonable expectations for him.

Good luck with this... It's always something with kids, isn't it?

I am off to go look it up, DeeDee. It looks like exactly what I need, because I am hitting a wall with teaching him some of these things. I'll think we've made progress, and then this happens. It's odd to sometimes wish he'd come home and say, "yeah, I shouldn't have done that but just couldn't resist". I know how to deal with that; I don't know how to teach someone how to perceive what is going to offend someone else and then avoid.

And to a certain extent, I want him to maintain some of that. Being that kind of individual thinker is a good thing when it comes to solving big problems. Many of the most successful CEO's worried a lot less about what offended others than about what was the right thing to do.

While I want him to learn skills that will help him get along with others, I also don't want to keep "fixing" him until he's pretty sure he's defective the way he is.

Here's some advice that I just came up with in the last five seconds.

I'm drawing on my experience with arguing with Walter Dellinger about free speech in law school here - so I can no longer say law school has no practical application.

When asked to write something *never* write anything critical or negative.

Write about flowers, rainbows, and economic recovery.

Use optimistic words of happiness, joy, and tell them how much you love the stories, and how much you love school, and how the teacher is a snappy dresser and looks like she is 25.

You get the point.

This is such a great idea. I really should do this with DD.

So funny

I can't imagine a 12yo has fellatio in mind when he says a story sucks. Heck, I don't, and I know what that is.

ETA: I read the assignment and the answer to my 4th grader, and she said the only thing wrong with it was that he should have evaluated the stories based on his feelings after the first reading, not on his dislike of re-reading. She said that if someone said something sucked, that would be no big deal. (Whereas saying you hate something has already been explained as inappropriate classroom behavior.)

Had to laugh at these, just last week DS8 came home with a math enrichment paper he was supposed to "Explain how you know your answer is right" he wrote "Because I'm really good at math and I double checked"! Apparently, this was not the answer the teacher was looking for!

Regarding the OP's situation, part of me feels like the teacher should not ask a question if she doesn't want the answer. She asked him which one he liked best and why and he answered her question honestly. You get what you ask for! But as a parent, I would also have the talk about the appropriate vocabulary.

DS8 also has issues with bluntness ( I do not think Asberger's is a concern). To me, it seems like he is so focused on something being correct (this is REALLY what I think) that he misses how it might be interpreted by another person, even though he is generally pretty empathetic.

Yep. I hear you.

We *try* to frame these things in an explanatory or informative way, as in "oh, you probably didn't know this yet, but when you do X other people think Y. If you do Z instead they'll be happier because they think Q." Not critical, just giving valuable information for him to put into the hopper.

But it's definitely a real challenge.

DeeDee

Lots of things come to mind here.

That is exactly the sort of thing that my DS9 would write, and he would be just as shocked that it wasn't what the teacher was looking for. Ask for an opinion, you're going to get an opinion!

Same with the "explain your answer" thing. We're still working on that, but since he was 5 he's been answering those with "because it's right" and so on. Can't argue with that, it's true -- and it's hard to explain how you know that 5 x 5 = 25.

I did more subtle rebellion, myself -- I remember a paper in high school where we were supposed to discuss the author's symbolism involving the use of light in a story (the light was on or the fire was lit when there were great truths being revealed, etc.) and I wrote my paper on how the light didn't mean anything -- they turned the light on when they entered a room, lit the fire when it was cold. Teacher didn't have that in mind, but I wrote good papers.

Definitely a fan of the charm school story, though I know it as "fantastic". Working on teaching DS9 that sort of thinking, but he is a bit too literal.

Jon, reminds me of Apollo 13, when the press goes after the wives -- "remember, we're proud, happy and thrilled."

I think I would be getting a bit upset with the teacher for downgrading the answers after asking for opinions with no specific criteria. And especially for taking off more points on an unrelated assignment because that paper wasn't "chivalrous". But I'd have to have a discussion with the kiddo and try to explain exactly how one is supposed to know when the teacher is looking for a lie, and what sort of lie to provide, and how to fill the required space with said lie. Survival 101.

He is twelve, has no reference points in his own history that would make him think that it was a colloquial reference to anything other than just being icky. My generation considered that word to be a borderline cuss word, but I can promise you that his generation does not. It is the same a yuck or ick or bummer.

Honestly, that statement -that his generation does not consider anything wrong with sucks - shocked me, and I have a 12-year old boy (as well as two older girls and a younger boy). They ALL know that this would be a completely inappropriate word to use (I don't think he knows the sexual implication, but just that it isn't proper English - in the same way he wouldn't write OMG-or yuck or bummer-in a written response). If any kid in my child's public school said "that story sucks" in an oral response to a teacher, let alone written, they'd receive a consequence. Now, at the high-school level, I think it is different, but I still can't imagine either of my daughters having used that kind of language to a teacher or in an essay.
My ds12 has an IEP for expressive language and isn't always the best at expressing himself (sometimes too direct, doesn't always spare people's feelings) but he does know that written answers are supposed to be thoughtful and evidence based, "I disliked the story because XX" or "My least favorite part was XX" and they should use proper English.
I know you don't want to beat him up over expressing his honest opinion, but if he has no social/spectrum issue, he is, imo, more than old enough to understand that this answer is not appropriate and to learn from you some simple rules for expresing his opinion politely.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89127830

Some interesting information on the evolution of "sucks" and other ideas covered in today's discussion.

MY DD12 said that the answer was reasonable. I asked her if she thought there was a better way to put the answer; she said "Yeah, but it wouldn't get the point across! I HATE assignments like that! Maybe the teacher should give relavant assignments that require some thought." So, with that, I told her that I hope she thinks twice before writing something like this that she had a much better vocabulary. She turned away quietly and went on to the next...makes me wonder when I will be getting an email similar to the OP!!

LOL! Where is the like button??
It sounds like me. My college freshman English Comp final paper "Why I Hate Your Class". I was 16, and I got an "A".
But seriously, I am having to teach my dd to "lie" also and give the teacher what she wants. They are currently reading "To Kill A Mockingbird". What she really wants to say is that she read this book (and most of the other books they have done this year) about four years ago. Sigh.

Interesting link. Thanks for posting,

My DS8 is a big fan of the word 'hate' but we've worked with him a lot the past couple of years to understand that it's a VERY VERY strong word, and that most people think of it like it's a bad word. At school he is not to use the word. I've worked with him a lot this year, as well, on providing the answers that the teachers expect, not what he wants to write. I think it's a very important skill to learn, one that will help most people their entire lives. He knows at home he can say/write what he pleases, but not at school.

OK, at what point did "stupid" rise to the level of profanity? (Honestly, my kid thinks that it's a bad word, because school treats it like a swear, but IMHO, that's stupid.)

in my daughter's 2nd grade class "stupid" was called "the S word"

Of course "hell" was okay because that was a place, regardless of context.

I completely agree. I am surprised that so few responders seem to find it troubling to use the word "sucks" in a school assignment. I'm sure many people who use that word aren't thinking about the actual definition, but my 11 and 12 year olds are fully aware that it is an inappropriate word. Their friends are also aware--one of them accidentally used it in my presence last week, and immediately apologized. It may be used frequently in kid-only conversations, but I think most kids know, or SHOULD know, that it is not appropriate to use in school or with adults, etc. So please, let's all make sure our kids know!

ETA: I meant that I agree with MomtoFour's post about the inappropriateness of the word.

By the way, Original Poster, I feel your pain! My comment really reflects a general cultural concern about language & respect, etc, and I realize I wasn't really commenting on your question/issue...sorry!!

Or a person. (Loki's daughter)

this happened with our ds11; for him it was surprising because the teacher had been asking them to use their own 'voice' while writing, and he is working on his funky, in-your-face self...so that's his voice. Well, it didn't go over so hot, in fact he got pulled into the vice principal's office even though he didn't use any words like 'sucks' or anything like that.
Kind of contradictory, kind of over the top silliness on the part of the teacher and principal, when you are looking at a kid who hasn't been in trouble for 6 years of school, ever. I wondered how a 40 year old professional teacher could actually be offended by an 11 year old stretching his voice a bit. Lame.

Tallulah...very nice !!

If you live in certain parts of the country, a "sucker" is a piece of candy attached to a stick.

Anyway there are "swear words" and words that aren't very nice, sound tacky and are borderline inappropriate depending upon the audience.

This fall and winter all the kids were doing "what the - " which isn't anything bad in itself, and it's all over t.v. and movies, but it implies swearing and I don't think it's appropriate for 8 yr olds.

My grandmother used to say there was swearing and then there was just being "common". So if you don't want to be common, if you want to be a little more polished and sound more intelligent, there are many thousand words in the English language and get to know some more polished and clever ways of saying things.

And then there is being 12 with some inconsistent direction from teachers, and having lots to learn...just being human.

Hi ABQMom,

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but wanted to go back to your comment that your DS didn't realize that his answer wasn't appropriate.

My DS12 (ADHD-in and a very literal thinker) used to answer these "opinion" type questions in a similar manner -- saying he liked a certain character or story because it was "good" or didn't like another because it was "boring" or "dumb". I thought at first he was just being lazy or showing attitude, but after talking to him I realized that he just didn't understand why the teacher was asking this kind of question.

The problem was that he was answering the question truthfully, but wasn't understanding the teacher's perspective. I explained to him that she was asking this question to see if he was able to summarize part of a story that he liked or didn't like, and show that he had a good understanding of the characters and plot. He does much better on these kinds of questions now!

I'm just coming in again because I guess I don't understand why, such as what Verona is saying, that the teacher isn't guiding them to learn this? Did the teacher provide good feedback and the student just didn't understand, or did the student just get marked down or reprimanded and the parent had to figure it all out and then do the lesson interpretation for their child, etc.?

The OP as a mother gets an e-mail about her son's response...does the student get the feedback to what the teacher was looking for as an appropriate answer and asked to resubmit? Or do the immediately go to the middle school version of a "color change", also like chris1234 said? If the student is not demonstrating what the teacher was asking for with a particular type of question, is it because they were taught in class and didn't get it or the teacher didn't teach it properly, and how does the teacher work with the student between the two of them, at that age, to help the student learn this lesson?

DD is only 8 and she is literal, though hasn't done anything like this (yet?) so I'm just very confused and curious.

Well, in our case DS would just get a bad grade and possibly a comment that would say "elaborate" or something like that. Some kids are probably just more tuned in to what the teacher wants/expects and others need more explicit instruction.

At 12, my DS really should advocate for himself and ask the teacher what he should have done differently. But since he doesn't do that (sigh) and just ignores the bad grade, I feel that I need to intervene and explain what was expected.

Verona - he really thought all she wanted was his opinion of the stories and of her selection of reading material for the class. We jokingly call him Captain Literal, because he doesn't pick up on nuance in some instances while he does in others.

Of his own volition he wrote her an email apologizing and redoing the assignment once he understood what she wanted. He also apologized in person (although his apology did include the statement that he assumed since she used the words in class that were in his essay that they were acceptable - but that now he was aware they were not acceptable in writing, he would no longer use them in written assignments).

I explained to him that when a teacher asks for an opinion, usually they are just offering the opportunity to be a little more creative in the real assignment of comparing and contrasting the different stories so that she can affirm that he not only read all three but understood them as well. He was quite disgusted and asked why someone didn't just ask for what they wanted, why the need to play games and mess with kids' heads by asking something they didn't really care about...

I have a feeling this will not be the last email I receive before he graduates ... or possibly even before he finishes the school year.

ABQ, can you make it a detective puzzle for him?

It's important that he come to understand that he has less capability in this one area than most others do, and that it's not the teacher's OR his fault that this mismatch is happening. Ultimately, it's going to be on him to figure out what authority figures are asking for, and give it to them; better if he recognizes it as a glitch in his brain than if he always blames his teachers (=boss...).

DeeDee

Because the teacher assumes he knows what she expects, and then when he doesn't deliver it, the teacher assumes he did it on purpose.

This can lead directly to a conversation about how we're all in some ways prisoners of our own preconceptions, so that should be fun.

You can write critical things but you just need to use correct vocabulary.

The story made me want to vomit .....

"I had a visceral negative reaction to the story's details."

I hated all the stories, and third one was just the shortest....

"Although none of the stories touched me deeply, the pithy prose of the third story affected me the most."

The story was so stupid, I LOLed......

"As events unfold in this story it became clear that the plot defied common sense, causing me much amusement."

etc

Okay, I just had to share. I am in the middle of grading papers for an Ivy League class. Not fiction--these are economics papers. One of my students just repeatedly used the term, "screwed over." Although I am shocked that he doesn't have better judgment, and saddened to see unnecessarily course language infiltrate even academic papers like this, I admit it made me laugh out loud, given the context of the thread that was going on here.

C squared - that is too funny.

Guess it's kind of comforting that some college students haven't learned better filtering techniques than my son, but not really.

Not to make excuses for the kids, but the fight against the prevalent culture is a tough one. At what point to you feel you've prevailed...middle school, college, age 30, when they have kids and are fighting a different set of crassness and tell you they understand?

I just had to share this ...

Today my son came home and said he had testing all day. One part was a reading / opinion essay. My son said, "Well, I learned last year that opinion can mean a lot of things, so I went up to the teacher and asked if this was my opinion or just a nice way of asking me to regurgitate what I just read."

I asked how the teacher responded. "She started laughing really hard and said it really was my opinion. Just to be sure, I asked her if it was any opinion or just a nice opinion. She said any opinion, so I told the truth."

At least this time he asked and clarified. That is huge progress.

Just as long as his opinion doesn't involve talking about senseless violence and/or dead people.

ABQ, your DS makes me smile. And he's learning great survival skills!

DeeDee