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    Lori H. #127551 04/16/12 12:36 PM
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    From

    http://www.stopbullying.gov/kids/facts/index.html

    Facts About Bullying

    Bullying is being mean to another kid over and over again. Bullying often includes:

    Teasing

    Talking about hurting someone

    Spreading rumors

    Leaving kids out on purpose

    Attacking someone by hitting them or yelling at them

    Note list #4, "leaving kids out on purpose" being a plainer way of saying "social exclusion".


    Last edited by bzylzy; 04/16/12 12:50 PM.
    Bostonian #127552 04/16/12 12:57 PM
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Is the Boy Scouts organization therefore guilty of "bullying", because it is excluding people? I don't think so. It has certain moral standards that some people disagree with. They are free not to join.

    As if specific religious beliefs or sexuality have anything to do with morality... especially considering that the Catholic Church and BSA are two places where your child is most likely to be molested by a trusted adult, something most of us would consider immoral. Well trolled.

    Lori H. #127553 04/16/12 12:58 PM
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    I think we're trying to tease out which kinds of social exclusion are positive/good/permissible and which kinds of social exclusion are negative/evil/impermissible.

    Dude #127557 04/16/12 01:19 PM
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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Is the Boy Scouts organization therefore guilty of "bullying", because it is excluding people? I don't think so. It has certain moral standards that some people disagree with. They are free not to join.

    As if specific religious beliefs or sexuality have anything to do with morality... especially considering that the Catholic Church and BSA are two places where your child is most likely to be molested by a trusted adult, something most of us would consider immoral. Well trolled.

    I think most abused children are abused by family members.

    Many children are socially excluded from their parents every year by the department of social services for this very reason.

    Last edited by JonLaw; 04/16/12 01:30 PM. Reason: Because the way I had it written, it looked like I thought most children were abused.
    Dude #127563 04/16/12 01:48 PM
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    Originally Posted by Dude
    As if specific religious beliefs or sexuality have anything to do with morality...Well trolled.

    smile

    I agree.

    Bostonian, you often post links to interesting and thought-provoking pieces, which is great. Lately, though, some of your comments seem to be deliberate attempts at baiting people rather than the thoughtful analyses that are the norm on this forum. I'd rather not start a culture war here.

    Dude #127572 04/16/12 03:03 PM
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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Is the Boy Scouts organization therefore guilty of "bullying", because it is excluding people? I don't think so. It has certain moral standards that some people disagree with. They are free not to join.

    As if specific religious beliefs or sexuality have anything to do with morality.

    At the risk of pointing out the obvious, 'specific religious beliefs' are for some the main underpinning of their version of morality.

    Lori H. #127576 04/16/12 03:59 PM
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    I really think that adults can reduce bullying through good leadership. They can't be there in every corner of the hallway, but they can set a standard and an expectation of how people should treat each other. We are lucky, they only instance of bullying my sons have experienced was at a Park-district run summer camp led primarily by college and hs students who just did not have the authority they needed for this environment. When I complained, multiple times, they said they would talk to the kids, etc., but nothing happened. I took my boys out and moved them to a YMCA camp where they had zero problems and lots of fun. Still mostly college age kids running the program but I now truly appreciate the "role model" t-shirts Y employees wear. They provided an excellent environment that encouraged the kids to treat each other with kindness.

    I also think that we can empower kids to stand up for each other and not tolerate bullying behavior. I think this is what the commercial La Texican mentioned is trying to get at, but I agree that it doesn't really get the point across. The actual programs focus on the fact that lots of kids are aware of the bullying but do nothing. If we can empower THEM to speak up then we can have a real impact. KathleensMum's post on the Ultimate Brag Thread is a great example of this. The trailer for the Bully movie shows a video of a bullying incident on a bus. Numerous other kids observe it and do nothing. If we can change that response, then I think we could see some change in the behaviors.
    This can also be done in the classroom through positive leadership, expecting inclusion and even pulling some kids aside and asking them to be role models and leaders in this respect. Expecting kindness, compassion and forgiveness (i.e. not shunning the perpetrators) doesn't really seem that far-fetched to me. As a society we tolerate bullying by saying it "happens all the time" and is "just part of growing up". It doesn't have to be, we have just accepted that it will be.

    And third, I think we conflate two types of behaviors when we talk about bullying. One is the anti-social behavior of children who have been mistreated themselves. The other is this experimentation with social power that is also very common. I think these sets of behaviors come from different sources and should actually be treated differently if we want to effectively intervene. The anti-social bully is also a victim and needs help. The social experimentors need to be given clear boundaries. I feel like the "over" emphasis on bullying is a bit problematic in that in seems to say that kids are either victims or bullies. And that the "artsy" kids are the victims and the "sports" kids are the bullies. These stereotypes just exacerbate the problem, imo. It creates enemies that don't have to be.

    There's more I'd like to write, but my little one needs my attention now!

    Lori H. #127584 04/17/12 07:27 AM
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    On our nationally ranked swim team, the fastest kids go first. End of story. My son at one point was faster than some of the kids but was too shy to push ahead. We mentioned it to the coach, and he finally encouraged him to go first. There was no bullying; it was simply who was the fastest.
    We are heavily involved in Cub Scouts and have never heard anything about gays in Scouting. We are in a pretty liberal area though. I have thought the reason why they don't want gay leaders is b/c they somehow think that gays would be more likely to molest little boys than straight leaders (which I don't think is true). There is also a very heavy Mormon influence in Scouting. However, that would to my eye not be bullying either but simple prejudice (which I obviously don't agree with).

    hip #127587 04/17/12 07:55 AM
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    Originally Posted by hip
    At the risk of pointing out the obvious, 'specific religious beliefs' are for some the main underpinning of their version of morality.

    And any specific group of religious adherents has its good and bad eggs, there's precious little correlation between religious beliefs and moral outcomes, so your obvious point is irrelevant. Think of morality as "what you do" and religious/philosophical beliefs as "how you explain it." You can explain your actions however you like, but those actions are all that really matters.

    As for sexuality, it's as much a moral dilemma as choosing red wine or white. Morality is determined by how you choose to use it... share the wine, hoard it, or steal it? Sip and enjoy, dump it on the floor, or spit it at your host? Drink moderately, excessively, or never at all?

    Dude #127589 04/17/12 08:05 AM
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    Originally Posted by Dude
    As for sexuality, it's as much a moral dilemma as choosing red wine or white. Morality is determined by how you choose to use it... share the wine, hoard it, or steal it? Sip and enjoy, dump it on the floor, or spit it at your host? Drink moderately, excessively, or never at all?

    That is quite possibly the strangest analogy I've ever encountered.

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